The Voice of the People


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Recently, a Georgetown Law professor (Josh Chafetz, no relation to Jason Chafetz):

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When the mob is right, some more aggressive tactics are justified.

His tweet is now private so it cannot be linked to. Commentators said that the conclusion of his rant was that the "Capitol City Riots would have been perfectly legitimate if it were abortion supporters instead of MAGA fanatics."

As clearly biased and possibly insane as this sounds, there is some kernel of truth to his idea that no one is really considering.

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Mosiah...who was our last king... causing that this people should be governed by their own voices...did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction.

Democracy is only a great system in that the success or failure is determined by the righteousness of the populace.  No longer can unrighteous kings determine the fate of a righteous people.

But if the people choose evil, then democracy shall reign.  And the demise of the republic is assured.

Either we judge and police ourselves in righteousness, or the Lord will declare (as Bill Cosby put it so eloquently) EVERYBODY!  OUT OF THE POOL!

Edited by Carborendum
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My Catholic friends and former neighbors are on Facebook showing how their church (and others) have been recently vandalized by pro-abortion folks.

And there's this: 

 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

My Catholic friends and former neighbors are on Facebook showing how their church (and others) have been recently vandalized by pro-abortion folks.

And there's this: 

 

It seems to me like the left truly wants conflict, but they don't want to get caught starting it so they can continue claiming moral supremacy.

Kind of like the annoying sibling that says "I'm not touching you" over and over again until the other one finally smacks their hand away. Then they go crying to mom and dad and the one who lashed out gets in trouble, when all they really wanted was to be left alone.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

My Catholic friends and former neighbors are on Facebook showing how their church (and others) have been recently vandalized by pro-abortion folks.

And there's this: 

 

 

In many instances, when people start doing that, the ones they are opposing dig trenches.  In otherwords, they set the opposition into a stronger mindset than before.

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by vandalizing churches (if they are doing that). 

I don't think those doing so represent most people, and are only a very small minority (just like those who were rioting at the Capital on Jan 6 over a year ago were actually only a VERY small minority of Trump supporters and nowhere representative of the majority...at least...from my POV). 

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't think those doing so represent most people, and are only a very small minority (just like those who were rioting at the Capital on Jan 6 over a year ago were actually only a VERY small minority of Trump supporters and nowhere representative of the majority...at least...from my POV). 

Perhaps this is a cup half empty opinion, but it seems that the numbers are growing. A minority still, yes, but not a very small one.

What's worse is it seems a majority of politicians agree with the fringe. Multiple lawmakers support those foul acts, and have no problem saying it. Many more aren't that bold, but they still refuse to condem such actions. There is nobody good to vote for anymore. I personally refuse to vote for such evil people, and have stared writing in my own names.

To me our country feels like it is getting ready to burst at the seams, and prophecies about the importance of the church are nearing their time to be fulfilled.

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16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Recently, a Georgetown Law professor (Josh Chafetz, no relation to Jason Chafetz):

His tweet is now private so it cannot be linked to. Commentators said that the conclusion of his rant was that the "Capitol City Riots would have been perfectly legitimate if it were abortion supporters instead of MAGA fanatics."

As clearly biased and possibly insane as this sounds, there is some kernel of truth to his idea that no one is really considering.

Democracy is only a great system in that the success or failure is determined by the righteousness of the populace.  No longer can unrighteous kings determine the fate of a righteous people.

But if the people choose evil, then democracy shall reign.  And the demise of the republic is assured.

Either we judge and police ourselves in righteousness, or the Lord will declare (as Bill Cosby put it so eloquently) EVERYBODY!  OUT OF THE POOL!

As a theological principle you’re no doubt correct—representative democracy is a means, not an end unto itself.

But as a civic/human behavioral principle:  in a democracy, once one side adopts a “but it’s OK when WE do it” attitude, the whole ball of wax inevitably starts to unravel.  So I think as a practical matter it’s generally the best policy to keep playing by the rules as long as possible, even if in our heart of hearts we feel like the rules shouldn’t quite apply to us.  If we are going to engage in a course of action that we know will pull our democracy apart, then we’d better be sure we know what comes immediately afterwards—and the truth is, we just don’t.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I have often wondered how in the Book of Mormon that Satan was able to take control of the hearts of a once free society and drive them to such bitter hatred that they would delight in the taking of the blood of those they hated.  In contrast to Satan's dominating hatred -- Jesus gives us the concept of loving those that bitterly hate us and seek violence against us.   However, loving our enemies is not the solution that many think it is.  Loving our enemies does not guarantee that the violence of the wicked against the righteous will subside nor prevent the loss of righteous lives nor the suffering of the righteous.  Loving others will only shield the righteous from Satan taking control of their hearts and minds.

For me it is difficult to think of protecting myself and others from those that intend to do me harm without feeling anger to some degree against them.  I am concerned that whatever news outlet we watch that the hidden agenda is to seek maledictions of perceived enemies.   I am concerned that even those that are right in the justice they seek are more centered on revenge as the solution than peace through understanding.  Many - including those that post on this forum - do not believe that the trend in this country is towards increasing violence and the bitterness that ends the freedoms and liberties of a once free society.  

The sad truth is that a angry and hateful society cannot abide freedoms and liberties.  Freedom and liberty can only abide in a compassionate society.  I believe we need to realize, or at least hope that the left leaning mobs do not actually seek to directly initiate violence but rather to provoke violence to justify what is planned in the name of putting down the violence.  Perhaps, there is still opportunity to resolve issues - at least among some even if they are few.  I believe this is a time for disciples of Christ to be more Christ like.  Not to win any cause of justice but rather in the hope of winning another soul - even it is only our own. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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22 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by vandalizing churches (if they are doing that). 

Yes, they're doing it.  Not a lot of news coverage, you have to know where to look.

Here's the Fort Collins, CO police Twitter asking the neighborhood for help: https://www.facebook.com/fortcollinspoliceservices/posts/385965323580934  My former neighbor who moved up there sent me this picture: 

May be an image of brick wall

 

Here's a story about an arson attack on a conservative lobbying group's office in Madison Wisconsin: https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/08/us/anti-abortion-office-arson/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0Lv5QbfCkx211H7pmcJLQovDKbG01aCWunV6TW9S6q3l9leR550eQhZR8

 

After initially declining to denounce such things, Psaki and Biden seem to have done the responsible thing, at least partly:

 

I would have liked to see something a little more strongly worded.  Something that directly addresses the protesters, maybe something like this:

"You have to go home now, we have to have peace.  We have to have law and order.  We have to respect our Supreme Court justices.  We don't want anyone hurt."

It would be nice to see Psaki say something that strong.  Actually, it would be nice to see Biden address the nation and say something like that.  I'm pretty ticked off that he isn't.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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A full 21% of likely voter Democrats thinks doxing SCOTUS home addresses and protesting there, is acceptable.  I guess another way to spin that, is 79% of likely voter Democrats don't support such things.  But holy crap - a full fifth of the Dem likely voter base is down with this nonsense?  (Compare to 92% of GOP likely voters.)

https://www.thetrafalgargroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/COSA-SCOTUS-Protests-Full-Report-0509.pdf

And here's Psaki, voicing the Administration's opinion on the matter. 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

But holy crap - a full fifth of the Dem likely voter base is down with this nonsense

Chilling. And let’s be honest. Democrats would have a huge problem here if the justices were going to overturn Heller vs DC and a conservative law clerk leaked this. Hypocrisy at it’s finest. 
 

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4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Chilling. And let’s be honest. Democrats would have a huge problem here if the justices were going to overturn Heller vs DC and a conservative law clerk leaked this. Hypocrisy at it’s finest. 

I dunno Gator.  The left takes to the streets, it's been true everywhere since at least the French Revolution.  The more left-leaning you are, the less you're against violence as a way to create political change.  The right operates differently.  In both polling and practice.

Can you find violent/doxxing/nasty folks on the right?  Absolutely.  But it tends to take a bombastic narcissist president to rile 'em up and point 'em somewhere in a group, otherwise they're just random lone wolves.  This stuff just tends to spring naturally from the left.  I believe it to be one of the legitimate differences between two political philosophies, when it can be pretty dang hard to tell the difference in the politicians sometimes.

Just look at that green 66.5%, and tell me I'm wrong here.

PoliticalViolenceOKPoll.thumb.JPG.487ea63074218a21ab711204ec54d2fd.JPG

 

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12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I dunno Gator.  The left takes to the streets, it's been true everywhere since at least the French Revolution.  The more left-leaning you are, the less you're against violence as a way to create political change.  The right operates differently.  In both polling and practice.

Can you find violent/doxxing/nasty folks on the right?  Absolutely.  But it tends to take a bombastic narcissist president to rile 'em up and point 'em somewhere in a group, otherwise they're just random lone wolves.  This stuff just tends to spring naturally from the left.  I believe it to be one of the legitimate differences between two political philosophies, when it can be pretty dang hard to tell the difference in the politicians sometimes.

Just look at that green 66.5%, and tell me I'm wrong here.

PoliticalViolenceOKPoll.thumb.JPG.487ea63074218a21ab711204ec54d2fd.JPG

 

All good points. You might be right. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/10/2022 at 6:56 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

As a theological principle you’re no doubt correct—representative democracy is a means, not an end unto itself.

But as a civic/human behavioral principle:  in a democracy, once one side adopts a “but it’s OK when WE do it” attitude, the whole ball of wax inevitably starts to unravel.  So I think as a practical matter it’s generally the best policy to keep playing by the rules as long as possible, even if in our heart of hearts we feel like the rules shouldn’t quite apply to us.  If we are going to engage in a course of action that we know will pull our democracy apart, then we’d better be sure we know what comes immediately afterwards—and the truth is, we just don’t.  

Civically speaking, I believe we have the proper guidance on the matter:

when a long train of abuses...

Still, the principles will determine the results.  If we truly are justified, then the Lord will be behind us.  And the reverse would be the obvious corellary.

So, if we really are willing to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and out sacred honor on the outcome, then rebellion/insurrection is on the table   But that has to be backed up by the judgement of God to determine if it really is "OK when WE do it."

And that is the real trick, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Civically speaking, I believe we have the proper guidance on the matter:

when a long train of abuses...

Still, the principles will determine the results.  If we truly are justified, then the Lord will be behind us.  And the reverse would be the obvious corellary.

So, if we really are willing to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and out sacred honor on the outcome, then rebellion/insurrection is on the table   But that has to be backed up by the judgement of God to determine if it really is "OK when WE do it."

And that is the real trick, isn't it?

  • "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." (Introduction to the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America)
  • "Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob." (Isaiah 41:21)

If insurrection is an option, then the insurrectionists are duty- and honor-bound to spell out their justifications.

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14 hours ago, Vort said:

If insurrection is an option, then the insurrectionists are duty- and honor-bound to spell out their justifications.

Yeah, today's insurrectionist left doesn't feel duty or honor bound to do any such thing.  The radical end of the community organizing philosophy comes as a practical result of the fact that anyone who organizes openly in the US, against the US, will get their butts kicked and arrested shortly.  It's all about peddling outrage and energizing unrest, and then one or two radicals can take the energy of the protest, and sharpen it into the blunt club of a mob.  All through 2020 we saw it - pretty much all the daytime protests were peaceful.  Then the sun went down, and folks who weren't protesting showed up to whip everyone still assembling into a mob.   Cops (and society in general) have a hard time dealing with such a situation.  It's hard to find someone to charge with inciting a riot, and when you arrest the individual rioters, they're just people who got riled up and pointed at something by someone who didn't end up cuffed in the back of a police unit. 

This is as close as we'll get to justifications:

AntifaUngovernable.thumb.JPG.95a253afdb0d33f43dfb5341d985a9e9.JPG

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On 5/10/2022 at 4:57 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Yes, they're doing it.  Not a lot of news coverage, you have to know where to look.

There's another part of the puzzle.  While everyone has their biases, there is always the understanding that all sides need to be able to provide their side of the story, present their own evidence, call witnesses on their behalf...

Those rotting away in solitary confinement are being denied all these things.  And for some reason the Dems believe they have the moral high ground.

If they do have it, why are they not allowing for opposing views, evidence, witnesses, and the presumption of innocence?

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To me the rot and stench of the federal government is on full display now and the wickedness of many in the common population.  I would be surprised if we are still the United States in eight more years because there may be States that break away.  (But this country went through far worse during the War of 1812 and the Civil War.)  Already diesel fuel shortages are now being reported in the eastern United States.  

The one good thing about the hardships coming on us soon is it will force many to return to reality and hopefully turn to the LORD.

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1 hour ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

To me the rot and stench of the federal government is on full display now and the wickedness of many in the common population.  I would be surprised if we are still the United States in eight more years because there may be States that break away.  (But this country went through far worse during the War of 1812 and the Civil War.)  Already diesel fuel shortages are now being reported in the eastern United States.  

The one good thing about the hardships coming on us soon is it will force many to return to reality and hopefully turn to the LORD.

Yes, the pride-prosperity cycle will be seen one more time.  But it will be relatively short lived.  We'll have one more chance to raise a righteous generation.  Then we will fall.

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