Like In The Days of Noah


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9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It was bound to happen at some point.

I've got some amazing stories from my missionaries.  Some depressing, some inspiring.  But it is all saying about what we'd expect.  There are still some of His sheep out there waiting to hear the word.  But there are fewer and fewer of them.

I'm also seeing a lot more people getting woke and getting inactive.  If this trend is so aligned, one wonders if there is a correlation.

 

I don't see all things, but I have seen a lot of the kids that go to college/university.

The BIGGEST trend I see for them going out of religion (most are not part of our church, we are talking about religion in general specific to Christianity) is not getting "woke" as you would put it.

They are VERY SICK of seeing how hypocritical Christian religions are.  Many of these kids read the Bible and read other things about Christian History and know it rather well.  Their complaints seem to boil down to the idea that they understand what it says and see Christians doing the exact opposite of what the Bible says to do. 

They feel churches themselves are the culprits that are doing unchristian ideas, and the members of those churches are part of the problem. 

Many of the kids will say that if we LIVED what the New Testament teaches (the Old Testament seems to not be that popular among the students) that the world would be a much better place. 

The problem is they see that Christians teach things that they do not feel agree with the Bible.  The big things that I have heard from them...

1.  The Teaching of the Prosperity Gospel where if you are rich it means you are blessed, but if you are poor it means you are a sinner or not as righteous as the Rich.  They feel this is directly contrary to what Jesus Taught (looking specifically at what he said about the Rich man who couldn't give up his riches, the camel and the needle, Peter and Christians living with all things in common, etc).

2.  That Christians hate an awfully lot.  They hate anyone who is different (according to the kids who are no longer attending churches or believe one should attend a church, even if they still believe in God).  They do not welcome others.

3.  They feel that Christians do not believe in all things being equal among them.  They feel Christians believe that some are superior to others.  Christians will make one person a Deacon or Elder in the Church (this means something different in other churches) because of who they know or how wealthy they are or some other reason, but will reject someone who is more righteous simply because they don't like them.  Students seem to feel that this is opposite of what the Lord would want. 

4.  NOW, to be clear, most of the students are NOT from a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints background.  These are general feelings I've seen over the past few years.  A majority of the things I've heard (that I can recall off the top of my head, there maybe other major ones, but this is what I recall right now) fall under those three categories.  There are other items but they are more split into smaller groupings than the big three above.  Some of these items would be dealing with the historicity of the Bible, the conflict between what Evangelical Christians say and science, the violence of the Crusades and historical items in general, political involvement of churches...etc.

I wouldn't say this is necessarily a woke thing.  I've seen students of all types of political and ideological arenas feeling and saying similar things.  It's not necessarily a Conservative or Liberal or woke or traditional or any other solid grouping other than young people in general that are feeling more and more let down or critical of Churches.  I don't see it necessarily against the New Testament (the Old Testament is something else), but I DO see a lot of this angst and unhappiness focused on organized religions, specifically talking about Churches, these days among students.

HOWEVER...in my area, they are STILL a minority of the students (I'd say probably 1/3 may have the feelings I said above, though of those many still attend a church most likely, at least when they are at home with parents) who feel that way, though it has been getting larger in size for the past few years.  At least from those that have VOICED these things in class in discussions or otherwise.  There may be more than that, but they aren't making themselves heard when we discuss things.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

They are VERY SICK of seeing how hypocritical Christian religions are.

Then they themselves are hypocrites, given how utterly hypocritical their social politics are.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Many of these kids read the Bible and read other things about Christian History and know it rather well...

Many of the kids will say that if we LIVED what the New Testament teaches (the Old Testament seems to not be that popular among the students) that the world would be a much better place. 

Then they don't really know the Bible, like they pretend to.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

The Teaching of the Prosperity Gospel where if you are rich it means you are blessed, but if you are poor it means you are a sinner or not as righteous as the Rich.

Can't disagree with this complaint.

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10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

1.  The Teaching of the Prosperity Gospel where if you are rich it means you are blessed, but if you are poor it means you are a sinner or not as righteous as the Rich. 

9 hours ago, Vort said:

Can't disagree with this complaint.

 

In which denominations is this actually taught in such a black and white manner? I have never heard this before, even on my mission. I can see how the two are associated and/or correlated. Much (if not all) of the spiritual education and guidance in scripture also applies to, and bleeds over into, temporal matters. However, there are of course always exceptions and outliers in terms of wealth and righteousness as there are in all walks of life.

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13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

That Christians hate an awfully lot.  They hate anyone who is different (according to the kids who are no longer attending churches or believe one should attend a church, even if they still believe in God).  They do not welcome others.

 

That’s true for my generation and the Boomers like @Just_A_Guy-but younger religious leaders tend to be much more welcoming of those with tattoos, blue hair, etc. You'll still get some eye rolls but in 2022 that’s fading away. Good riddance. 

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4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That’s true for my generation and the Boomers like @Just_A_Guy-but younger religious leaders tend to be much more welcoming of those with tattoos, blue hair, etc. You'll still get some eye rolls but in 2022 that’s fading away. Good riddance. 

OK, groomer.

(I mean, like, “personal grooming”.  Like, combing your hair and brushing your teeth and stuff.  You do brush your teeth, don’t you? ;) )

In all seriousness:  I’m not sufficiently familiar with the whole of Christendom to say to what degree @JohnsonJones’s students’ complaints are well-founded or not within other Christian denominations.  But it does seem like there are undercurrents of poor historical/scriptural understanding and a general lack of familiarity with human nature generally and self-knowledge in particular, that may be underlying several of them; and of course our own church is by no means immune from those phenomena.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Perhaps I can offer some different ideas and opinions to this thread.  First I would deal with the "like in the days of Noah".  I have my personal speculations about the days of Noah.  It would seem that there was a lot of violence and general evil doings going on long before Noah and certainly for many millennia after Noah.  I am impressed that the type of evil in the days of Noah were beyond what we normally think.  I do not intend to defend the reality of the Book of Enoch but this ancient scripture says some rather interesting things about the days of Noah.  Two things have stuck out in my mind.  The first (I have forgotten the exact wording and do not want to take the time to find the quote) says that that the covenant of marriage was changed with the intent to forget G-d and seek only for worldly desires and pleasures.

The second I recall with more detail, it said, "That children were conceived only for carnal purposes.   I have speculated that children were in essence sexually abused on a world scale with starting early in their childhood and most impressionable years - resulting in no possible way to break the cycle.  Some scholars (including Hugh Nibley) believed that the cities threatened with destruction (Sodom and Gomorrah, Nineveh and others) were warned in order to protect children.

In short I am impressed that the wickedness that is ripe for destruction involves large scale rejection of traditional marriage and the large scale abuse of children.  I believe this is the wickedness that will cause the destruction of the wicked in the Last-days.

 

I would not give an opinion about the last days the the return of Christ.  I am impressed that many will know with some exactness of when the return will occur.  I am of the this mind because of the prophesy given in Amos 3:7.   This is in contrast to Matthew 24:36.  Concerning Matthew 24 - I had a discussion with a Rabbi that specialized in ancient Jewish culture and tradition.  He explained to me that on the first day of the year in the Jewish calendar there was a great celebration.   The first day of the year was determined by the first Sabbath following the first new moon after the spring equinox.   Take note of the "signs in the heavens".  Experts in the signs in the heavens would watch for the sign to be given for the new year and two witnesses were required to testify before a priest and judge.  When the first day was determined, fires would be set aflame on mountains so the people would know it was time to start the new year.  However, if there were storm or other clouds hiding the signs of heaven there was as saying in response to any questions when the celebration would take place.  The saying was that no man knows, not even the angles of heaven but G-d alone know when the day would come.

I personally find this symbolism interesting.  It would mean that in the Last-days that "storms" would hide the signs of heaven to the world.  But to the experts that understood the times and the seasons they would know when the new year would take place.  For example when the two witnesses (apostles, missionaries, prophets or whatever) are killed in the streets of Jerusalem - I will know basically the day.  However, there is one other interesting think about the hour and the day that Jesus will return.  Anciently this problem was not understood but in our modern time there are time zones and an international date line.  Whatever you think is the current date and time is - most of the world is experiencing a different hour and somewhere in the world is a different day.

To be clear - as of now I do not know when Jesus will come.  I am impressed that the hour and day is close - perhaps closer than many are even willing to consider.  I consider that it could be as close as a year or perhaps two - maybe even 10.  I do not know when it will be but I am inclined to think it possible as early as even by or before the end of this year and yet I still doubt it to be so and yet possible.

 

One lost point I would deal with has to do with suggestions from the first presidency.  It is my personal belief that our prophet makes suggestions so we can determine for ourselves our actions.  I do not believe our prophet makes suggestions so we can point finger (especially to other Saints who are member of the L-rd's church) in an attempt to shame them in the eyes of our "friends".    I am impressed that the great problem of the Pharisees and Scribes in the days of Jesus is that instead of taking the counsel of the L-rd unto themselves - rather they found joy in condemning others.  So if the prophet counsels against tattoos they point finger to ostracize those with tattoos.  The same applies to the Word of Wisdom and a great many other activities.  I believe rather is someone so struggling does attempt to live by the commandments we welcome them.  This I do not believe means that we enable them or encourage them to disregard the prophets.  I believe we become ministering angles unto them to help and encourage them.

As for the COVID-19 vaccine?  Those that have natural immunity do not need the vaccines and are better off to not have them.  I believe the words of our prophet - though not spoken directly to this allow such understanding within their counsel  - so I personally accept that it is possible that some Saints can be inspired to reject the vaccine because they are immune - I can also accept it should they decide to or not to receive the vaccine.   

 

The Traveler

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16 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I would not give an opinion about the last days the the return of Christ.  I am impressed that many will know with some exactness of when the return will occur.  I am of the this mind because of the prophesy given in Amos 3:7.   This is in contrast to Matthew 24:36.  Concerning Matthew 24 - I had a discussion with a Rabbi that specialized in ancient Jewish culture and tradition.  He explained to me that on the first day of the year in the Jewish calendar there was a great celebration.   The first day of the year was determined by the first Sabbath following the first new moon after the spring equinox.   Take note of the "signs in the heavens".  Experts in the signs in the heavens would watch for the sign to be given for the new year and two witnesses were required to testify before a priest and judge.  When the first day was determined, fires would be set aflame on mountains so the people would know it was time to start the new year.  However, if there were storm or other clouds hiding the signs of heaven there was as saying in response to any questions when the celebration would take place.  The saying was that no man knows, not even the angles of heaven but G-d alone know when the day would come.

I personally find this symbolism interesting.  It would mean that in the Last-days that "storms" would hide the signs of heaven to the world.  But to the experts that understood the times and the seasons they would know when the new year would take place.  For example when the two witnesses (apostles, missionaries, prophets or whatever) are killed in the streets of Jerusalem - I will know basically the day.  However, there is one other interesting think about the hour and the day that Jesus will return.  Anciently this problem was not understood but in our modern time there are time zones and an international date line.  Whatever you think is the current date and time is - most of the world is experiencing a different hour and somewhere in the world is a different day.

To be clear - as of now I do not know when Jesus will come.  I am impressed that the hour and day is close - perhaps closer than many are even willing to consider.  I consider that it could be as close as a year or perhaps two - maybe even 10.  I do not know when it will be but I am inclined to think it possible as early as even by or before the end of this year and yet I still doubt it to be so and yet possible.

The Traveler

There are to be at least 3 separate appearances: Adam-Ondi-Ahman, Mount of Olives, and the THE Second Coming. While the appearance at Adam-Ondi-Ahman will not be known to the world at large I have to imagine that the general membership of the Church would have to know that something is going on. Then of course the one at the Mount of Olives will be very public. It's my opinion that this will be the beginning of conversion of those in the heathen nations. So with these events preceding the Second Coming, the actual day may not be known but it surely can't be unexpected, right?

My guess is something similar to 3 Nephi will take place following the Mount of Olives appearance. Much of the world will convert to Christianity in general but there will be a long enough period of time to start getting complacent again to weed out those who aren't faithful prior to the Second Coming. If that is the case then we still have quite a while yet for it all to play out. But that's just my guess.

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Posted (edited)

Ok, so this thread went in a different direction than I had intended.  So... I'll go with the flow.

I'm not so concerned about all the small signs.  The reason is that these small signs will repeat themselves for each generation.  And they'll get worse and worse.  Two categories of reactions tend to occur:

1. People JUMP and say "LOOK!!!  It was prophesied."  Then comes the reality that the sign was a false positive.
2. People just become complacent because it's just like 100s of times before.

The first group needs to calm down a bit.  The small signs are not sure fire signals.  They're "reminders" to keep us on the path.  They remind us just how fragile society is. 

Those who become complacent have more need of repentance.  They believe they are beyond reminding.  They may even be past feeling. They know all, and simply don't humble themselves before the Lord and have no fear of God. (God-fearing in the classic sense).

So, the first thing is to look for the small signs as reminders to keep on the path.  They are also reminders of how the Lord provides this magnificent society for us.  People don't.  Look how easily it can come to a grinding halt when people do things without God in their hearts.  We always look to the Lord on a daily basis for our daily bread, not society.  This has always been true from the Garden of Eden and will be true all the way till the last battle.

The BIG SIGNS:

There really is only one that makes any difference: Two prophets (i.e. apostles) will miraculously hold back the armies of the anti-Christ.  When that happens, we'll know it is upon  us.

The problem with this is that there will be a whole lot more that happens before that time, and it won't be pretty.

So, in the end, we can worry about all sorts of things with the Second Coming.  But the whole point of giving us these prophecies is to remind us to stay close to the Lord and stay close to the stakes of Zion.

WHY STAKES?"

I don't know.  But I have a guess.  I am guessing that a lot of communication lines will be broken.  We may not have access to our Church Leadership -- at least, not with the convenience we have today.  So, the stakes will be our "sect" of Mormonism (if I can coin a phrase).  A stake tends to be just large enough (around 1000 to 2000 people) to be able to create quite a capable community with a variety of skills.  And the Saints will not be alone.  We are the one organized religion that people will seek out:

  • People know that we have a reputation for preparedness.
  • They know that we believe in the principles set forth in the Constitution.
  • They know that (despite our doctrinal differences) we believe in Christian Virtues that should be disseminated throughout society.
  • They know about our "Mormon Helping Hands" (despite the name change) and that we are about the most organized church in the world as far as every-day people doing every-day jobs and having every-day lives also being prepared and organized to handle disasters, help the needy, etc.

Yes, they will seek us out.  And we will be happy to have such allies.  At that point, we won't be worried about doctrinal differences.  We'll be worried about who's on the Lord's side, or the Anti-Christ's side.  And most people will know that we're NOT on the side of the Anti-Christ.

I even had an encounter with a self-described "recovering Mormon".  And he told me that even though he thinks we're a cult, if the shellac hits the fan, he'd be looking for the nearest Mormon church and hope to find shelter from the "zombie apocalypse" as he put it.

Edited by Carborendum
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8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Ok, so this thread went in a different direction than I had intended.  So... I'll go with the flow.

I'm not so concerned about all the small signs.  The reason is that these small signs will repeat themselves for each generation.  And they'll get worse and worse.  Two categories of reactions tend to occur:

1. People JUMP and say "LOOK!!!  It was prophesied."  Then comes the reality that the sign was a false positive.
2. People just become complacent because it's just like 100s of times before.

The first group needs to calm down a bit.  The small signs are not sure fire signals.  They're "reminders" to keep us on the path.  They remind us just how fragile society is. 

Those who become complacent have more need of repentance.  They believe they are beyond reminding.  They may even be past feeling. They know all, and simply don't humble themselves before the Lord and have no fear of God. (God-fearing in the classic sense).

So, the first thing is to look for the small signs as reminders to keep on the path.  They are also reminders of how the Lord provides this magnificent society for us.  People don't.  Look how easily it can come to a grinding halt when people do things without God in their hearts.  We always look to the Lord on a daily basis for our daily bread, not society.  This has always been true from the Garden of Eden and will be true all the way till the last battle.

The BIG SIGNS:

There really is only one that makes any difference: Two prophets (i.e. apostles) will miraculously hold back the armies of the anti-Christ.  When that happens, we'll know it is upon  us.

The problem with this is that there will be a whole lot more that happens before that time, and it won't be pretty.

So, in the end, we can worry about all sorts of things with the Second Coming.  But the whole point of giving us these prophecies is to remind us to stay close to the Lord and stay close to the stakes of Zion.

WHY STAKES?"

I don't know.  But I have a guess.  I am guessing that a lot of communication lines will be broken.  We may not have access to our Church Leadership -- at least, not with the convenience we have today.  So, the stakes will be our "sect" of Mormonism (if I can coin a phrase).  A stake tends to be just large enough (around 1000 to 2000 people) to be able to create quite a capable community with a variety of skills.  And the Saints will not be alone.  We are the one organized religion that people will seek out:

  • People know that we have a reputation for preparedness.
  • They know that we believe in the principles set forth in the Constitution.
  • They know that (despite our doctrinal differences) we believe in Christian Virtues that should be disseminated throughout society.
  • They know about our "Mormon Helping Hands" (despite the name change) and that we are about the most organized church in the world as far as every-day people doing every-day jobs and having every-day lives also being prepared and organized to handle disasters, help the needy, etc.

Yes, they will seek us out.  And we will be happy to have such allies.  At that point, we won't be worried about doctrinal differences.  We'll be worried about who's on the Lord's side, or the Anti-Christ's side.  And most people will know that we're NOT on the side of the Anti-Christ.

I even had an encounter with a self-described "recovering Mormon".  And he told me that even though he thinks we're a cult, if the shellac hits the fan, he'd be looking for the nearest Mormon church and hope to find shelter from the "zombie apocalypse" as he put it.

 

I believe the greatest sign that the second coming is close at hand - is the restoration of the Kingdom (true and living church) of G-d.  I believe the restoration was not just one event but an ongoing series of events - some of which are greater than others.  As I have pondered the great restoration that prepares for Christ's return it appears to me that at this point in time all the prophesies concerning the restoration could be completed in just a year or even less.  I also believe that as the great restoration takes place that Satan realizes as well that time is becoming short and as such will exercise all his power and according to his plan do all he can to disrupt the restoration and return of Christ.  This is why we see such rapid increases of evil - especially directed towards divine marriage and the innocence of children (even more specific towards children that have not reached the age of accountability.

I confess that I do not know when (including if the return will take place in one year, ten years or one hundred years) but I speculate that all the signs that are necessary could be fulfilled within a single year.

 

But there is something else that I speculate.  In Matt 24 there is a reference to a sign I find most interesting.  It is the sign of Christ's coming.  I speculate that the sign of the first advent of Christ was a star - a star I speculate was a supernova about 600 light years away but still with enough energy to cause the earth's ozone to become fluorescent. and cause that the America's would have bright light through the night.  I speculate that another supernova about 400 light years or closer will hit the earth and destroy all life - like unto the flood but with fire and only those that are preserved by the power of G-d - like unto the cities of Enoch and the Ark will remain.

 

The Traveler

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On 5/21/2022 at 5:47 PM, Traveler said:

But there is something else that I speculate.  In Matt 24 there is a reference to a sign I find most interesting.  It is the sign of Christ's coming.  I speculate that the sign of the first advent of Christ was a star - a star I speculate was a supernova about 600 light years away but still with enough energy to cause the earth's ozone to become fluorescent. and cause that the America's would have bright light through the night.  I speculate that another supernova about 400 light years or closer will hit the earth and destroy all life - like unto the flood but with fire and only those that are preserved by the power of G-d - like unto the cities of Enoch and the Ark will remain.

 

The Traveler

I was under the impression that the Fire engulfing the Earth in the Second Coming was a Spiritual one, such as when we are baptized we first are immersed in Water and then we receive the Holy Ghost.

I was thinking the literal fire was after the Millenium where the earth is also rolled up like a scroll. 

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I was under the impression that the Fire engulfing the Earth in the Second Coming was a Spiritual one, such as when we are baptized we first are immersed in Water and then we receive the Holy Ghost.

I was thinking the literal fire was after the Millenium where the earth is also rolled up like a scroll. 

Fire will come at the "second coming", and will burn up all things that are unable to abide a Terrestrial glory, which is what the Earth will be during the period of the millenium. My belief is that it will be the glory of the Son himself that will burn up those that cannot abide His presence upon the earth.

However, it also makes sense that some kind of "fire" or something else will also have to happen again for the earth to be changed/purified to a Celestial state.

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3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I was under the impression that the Fire engulfing the Earth in the Second Coming was a Spiritual one, such as when we are baptized we first are immersed in Water and then we receive the Holy Ghost.

I was thinking the literal fire was after the Millenium where the earth is also rolled up like a scroll. 

 

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Fire will come at the "second coming", and will burn up all things that are unable to abide a Terrestrial glory, which is what the Earth will be during the period of the millenium. My belief is that it will be the glory of the Son himself that will burn up those that cannot abide His presence upon the earth.

However, it also makes sense that some kind of "fire" or something else will also have to happen again for the earth to be changed/purified to a Celestial state.

Thank you both for your input.  As much as I ponder and speculate - I am not certain of many fine details.  Matt 24 talks about the "sign of the son of G-d" that will be given at the time of his coming.  I speculate that - that sign is a new star in the same manner as his birth.  The only way I can justify and logically connect to the time of night of light is from a super nova.  Tesla suggested that we fluoress our ozone to give constant light to solve hunger.  I worked out how a super nova could cause a night of light.  If a super nova is too close it will destroy life with fire.

In Genesis the way to garden of paradise is symbolized by passing by Cherubim and a flaming sword - indicating that the earth will be cleansed by fire for the millennial reign. restoration.  I have speculated with others that after the millennium that the earth will become Celestial (a bright sun).  

For me - it seems that attempting to understand the future is a guessing exercise.  I like to hear other opinions to keep me grounded.  Thanks for your responses.

 

The Traveler

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/18/2022 at 7:49 PM, JohnsonJones said:

1.  The Teaching of the Prosperity Gospel where if you are rich it means you are blessed, but if you are poor it means you are a sinner or not as righteous as the Rich.  They feel this is directly contrary to what Jesus Taught (looking specifically at what he said about the Rich man who couldn't give up his riches, the camel and the needle, Peter and Christians living with all things in common, etc).

When my oldest daughter was about 13 she bought a shirt she really liked at Deseret Industries. Her friend, the daughter of the Stake President, a man who had been bishop before he was president, asked where she got it. My daughter said, "I got it at D.I." Her friend said, "We don't shop there because my mom says that the only people that shop at D.I. are people that are too lazy to get a good paying job." My daughter came home in tears and said she never wanted to shop at D.I. again. Eventually we helped her to understand that sometimes people are jerks, even if their husband is the great and mighty [name redacted]

We need to stop worshipping people, no matter their position. My daughter eventually left active membership when she was about 19 because of this kind of stuff. I don't blame the former SP, he was ok, but he sure was a judgmental man and kind of came across as a hypocrite. What bothers me is how so many members of the ward we live in tend toward this kind of elitism, especially toward the poorer members. I am glad I live in the poor section of the ward, because my neighbors are fantastic.

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On 5/19/2022 at 9:33 AM, LDSGator said:

That’s true for my generation and the Boomers like @Just_A_Guy-but younger religious leaders tend to be much more welcoming of those with tattoos, blue hair, etc. You'll still get some eye rolls but in 2022 that’s fading away. Good riddance. 

The best neighbors I have are the colored hair, tattoo types, and they are better Christians than most of the elite up the hill in our ward.

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On 5/23/2022 at 11:21 AM, scottyg said:

Fire will come at the "second coming", and will burn up all things that are unable to abide a Terrestrial glory, which is what the Earth will be during the period of the millenium. My belief is that it will be the glory of the Son himself that will burn up those that cannot abide His presence upon the earth.

However, it also makes sense that some kind of "fire" or something else will also have to happen again for the earth to be changed/purified to a Celestial state.

May He return soon, I am tired of resisting and fighting evil. It is exhausting.

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On 5/23/2022 at 9:08 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I was under the impression that the Fire engulfing the Earth in the Second Coming was a Spiritual one, such as when we are baptized we first are immersed in Water and then we receive the Holy Ghost.

I was thinking the literal fire was after the Millenium where the earth is also rolled up like a scroll. 

I would keep an eye on Gamma Crucis, it is a red giant that is only about 90 light-years away. Ironically it is also in the head position in the Sothern Cross. If you are right it could be a star blew in 1820 or 1830 and wave will reach earth along with the return of Christ. For that matter, Arcturus is only 37 light-years away and Aldebaran is 65 light-years away. 😳

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein
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A little late to this discussion but I'm curious about the contributor's thoughts:

Is it possible that the day of the Saviors 2nd coming is NOT set in regards to a calendar day but more determined by the conditions of the world?  Could that day be flexible depending on how soon people reach a given threshold of wickedness?  Was God waiting until the people were ripe in iniquity until he sent the flood or was the "ripeness" already known by God (I am in a phase of pondering the spectrum of pre-destiny vs. foreknowledge)?  

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16 hours ago, jdf135 said:

A little late to this discussion but I'm curious about the contributor's thoughts:

I'm guessing you're asking me?

16 hours ago, jdf135 said:

Is it possible that the day of the Saviors 2nd coming is NOT set in regards to a calendar day but more determined by the conditions of the world?  Could that day be flexible depending on how soon people reach a given threshold of wickedness?  Was God waiting until the people were ripe in iniquity until he sent the flood or was the "ripeness" already known by God (I am in a phase of pondering the spectrum of pre-destiny vs. foreknowledge)?  

This has long been my position on the topic.

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