Is Sacrifice and Suffering an Eternal Endeavor?


clbent04
 Share

Recommended Posts

@clbent04 I'm late to the answers, but here are my thoughts.

Why did the universe demand Jesus Christ have to sacrifice and die on our behalf to save us from sin? Do you suppose it’s a universal law that we as imperfect beings can never have eternal life without a Savior interceding on our behalf?

Yes, this is a higher law -- according to the Father's knowledge -- that allows our Father in heaven to remain perfectly just and merciful. Yes, if we choose to sin, a way must be prepared. We learn that clearly in our temple ceremonies, and the Book of Mormon highlights this pretty well. The relation between our agency and our Savior.

Did a law in the universe crack when Adam and Eve committed the first sin where all hope was lost without a Savior? I’m trying to conceptualize why the universe demands sacrifice for us to reach certain levels of progression and if it's necessary for our existence.

Have you had the chance to read or listen to Boyd K. Packer's analogy/parable "The Mediator"? If not, I would recommend listening to it, as it breaks down a more complex doctrine into smaller bits that are more easily understood. If not, this link -- The Mediator -- will take you to it. In relation to that, this is a great seminary video (very 80's) that helps break down agency.

How we explain a concept is important. Nothing "cracked". If someone breaks a law, even a simple law, the law acts upon that individual. When Adam and Eve committed "sin" the law now "acts" -- not cracks -- upon them. Sacrifice is required because we are unable to recompense the law on our own. If I steal I can return what I stole. If I break a neighbors window I can repair that window. If I "sin" how would I recompense and make myself clean? How do you make something unclean, clean? Thus, reiterating why Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the only way to the Father.

If we are eternal and have always existed and always will exist, and if the atonement never happened, how do you suppose we would exist after this life?

This question is already answered in scripture. We would be like the devil and his angels who rebelled against God.

Does God’s plan work without sacrifice? 

An interesting question. The Lord was perfect, he chose to be perfect. Was there any sacrifice for him? Sacrifice is part of God's plan, because we choose to sin. If we loved God like our Savior loved God no sacrifice would have been required. In that light, our Savior is the center of the gospel. Because we do not love God (look at today how many sons and daughters of God know more than God and his servants the prophets) like our Savior does, and we choose to sin, thus a sacrifice was necessary. The easiest modern day "love of the world" rather than "love of God" is how clear God has said he made "male" and "female." Yet, despite the plainness even the "elect" fight to say otherwise.

If sacrifice and suffering are meant to continue in the next life? We hardly grow in this life without suffering, so why would that formula change in the next life?

If we are considering "sacrifice" like our Savior, no, at least for us.  Suffering, what do you mean by suffering? We have perfected bodies, so there is no suffering with mortal ailments. We are immortal. Animals are immortal. Once immortal (spirit and body joined) there is no more death. So the suffering of death is no more, swallowed up in Christ.

If we are exalted, this highlights a different perspective in life. If we are not "exalted" then we know to some degree their is a form of suffering -- a type of hell.

In scripture we are told that even our Savior learned obedience via the things he suffered. What is possible for us to suffer in the next life though? Is God the Father suffering? He sorrows for the sins and decisions of his offspring, his heirs. He even cries due to their decisions that he knows do not bring eternal and mortal happiness/joy.

And along those lines, why does human life need to be sustained by less intelligent animals such as chickens, cows, and pigs...?  Eternal concept here to our eternal existence needing to be sustained at the expense of less intelligent life forms having to die for us?

It doesn't. The word "immortality" -- no death -- should be sufficient to answer the next question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Those that wish to see @Traveler's arguments should refer to his OP--they are classic, and the issue has remained contentious for centuries. Those of us who believe that God created us out of nothing also believe that we were created capable of sin--not necessarily predetermined to do so. God knew we would, but he created us with choice. Once Adam & Eve sinned, the gravity in our decision-making did lean toward sin. Still, it was/is choice. Thus, Jesus said wide is the way that leads to destruction, narrow the way that leads to eternal life (paraphrase). Paul also told us (Romans 1) that we are without excuse--that we know right from wrong--that we could see God if we were willing to. And, of course, the Old Testament, New Testament, and Book of Mormon all contain promises that if God is sought He will be found.

And so, how can I say God is good if he allows us to sin against ourselves, each other, and Him? One argument is that slavery is worse--having no choice. Another, that the safer we are made (whether by God or government) the less free we are. A third, that the Bible says God is good--especially as reflected in His original creation. The fourth, we have our testimonies--I KNOW that God is good because of the goodness He's extended to me.

I readily confess that non of my reasons are fail proof. Thus, the discussion continues.

Commenting on your points above:

One argument is that slavery is worse--having no choice. God gave Adam and Eve commands and choices in the Garden of Eden.

Another, that the safer we are made (whether by God or government) the less free we are. As we make ourselves servants to Christ, we are made free (1 Corinthians 7: 21-23).

A third, that the Bible says God is good--especially as reflected in His original creation. We know this by the light of Christ (John 1:9).

The fourth, we have our testimonies--I KNOW that God is good because of the goodness He's extended to me. John 12:46

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

 

“Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves” within the defined progression of creations and circumstances (the various “estates”) that He opens up to us. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

His foreknowledge, I believe, consists of His experience of having faced all the consequences of all choices for Himself, individually (“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”); collectively (His Family), and either of these both personally and by proxy (His Forbearers). Because it comes by way of His own personal experience, I take His foreknowledge to be a form of faith, since knowledge comes by faith (Alma 32). When we willingly “gift” our agency back to Him in the form of submission (worship, obedience, sacrifice, consecration, etc.), He fulfills His foreknowledge and our faith with the reality of our salvation through the merits of Christ (also in Alma 32).

Thank you for engaging in this discussion.  The term agency is a word in the English language that implies a legal connection for one person to act (according to their own choices) legally for another entity.  My father was employed as an Insurance Agent and could legally bind that companies resources to the actions of those of his choosing.  The company to which he was employed had rules and guidelines as to who he could "bind" with coverage of the companies resources.   If my father included those that were not of the type according to the rules - the company was still legally bound regardless.  The only action they could take was to fire (break) the contract of my father's agency and cancel others he bound before claims were made.  If you read carefully the description of agency from your reference to the church publication - you will find that the definition of my father's insurance agency is applicable. 

The point I wanted to make is that G-d's gift of agency to us has legal (under just law) implications for that G-d that granted or gifted that agency to us.  In essence there is a legal responsibility that is attached to agency for which the granter of agency is accountable.   I would point out that agency and its accompanying consequences was the issue in our pre-existence that initiated the war in heaven that continues even now as the great conflict between good and evil.

I have made a logical connection that Jesus (Jehovah) was the means by which we were given agency according to the plan of salvation and that because of that - Jesus was able to act (legally and justly) as our Savior and Redeemer from our sinful and fallen state.  And that only he could have suffered death to redeem us because our agency came by and through him.

As to the foreknowledge of G-d - I am of the impression (speculation) that his knowledge is more sure than you suggest.  I am of the impression that G-d has access to the future as easily and surely as we have knowledge of our past.  Not just as memory but with the essence of a vedeo of the events if you will.  I am impressed with you bringing Alma 32 into the discission - however I am of the impression that Alma 32 applies to those of us that are in our fallen mortal state and that knowledge of a Celestial being is somewhat more direct and not as confined to a time line.   In essence that knowledge of Celestial beings is not dependent on time as a parameter. 

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Those that wish to see @Traveler's arguments should refer to his OP--they are classic, and the issue has remained contentious for centuries. Those of us who believe that God created us out of nothing also believe that we were created capable of sin--not necessarily predetermined to do so. God knew we would, but he created us with choice. Once Adam & Eve sinned, the gravity in our decision-making did lean toward sin. Still, it was/is choice. Thus, Jesus said wide is the way that leads to destruction, narrow the way that leads to eternal life (paraphrase). Paul also told us (Romans 1) that we are without excuse--that we know right from wrong--that we could see God if we were willing to. And, of course, the Old Testament, New Testament, and Book of Mormon all contain promises that if God is sought He will be found.

And so, how can I say God is good if he allows us to sin against ourselves, each other, and Him? One argument is that slavery is worse--having no choice. Another, that the safer we are made (whether by God or government) the less free we are. A third, that the Bible says God is good--especially as reflected in His original creation. The fourth, we have our testimonies--I KNOW that God is good because of the goodness He's extended to me.

I readily confess that non of my reasons are fail proof. Thus, the discussion continues.

Thank you for your response - especially that you are willing to have a continuing discussion.  As always most of what you say is something to which I agree.  Most specifically that G-d is good.   But I still see a problem that I do not think you addressed.  Obviously we are all different individuals.  Why are we different?  What concerns me is that part of that difference is that some have a higher proclivity to be "deceived or beguiled" and do evil than others and having done so have no affinity to repent.  Now, to the specific problem that I have.  If G-d created us from nothing how can we justify that G-d created some to have a higher proclivity for evil than others?  If G-d knew in advance that all those that would choose sin because of something he created in them - why did he create that in those that choose sin and never repent?  If G-d created our will to choose - why did he create some with better will choosing than others?  And how is it just that the poor choosers are damned if all they needed was to have been created with a will to choose better?

The only possibility that I can justify is that there is something in our personal individuality that G-d did not create.  Something G-d has no control over that would eventually turn some towards G-d and others away from G-d.  Obviously this would be a one exception to creation that disproves the doctrine of ex nihilo.  What am I missing in our discussion?  

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your response - especially that you are willing to have a continuing discussion.  As always most of what you say is something to which I agree.  Most specifically that G-d is good.   But I still see a problem that I do not think you addressed.  Obviously we are all different individuals.  Why are we different?  What concerns me is that part of that difference is that some have a higher proclivity to be "deceived or beguiled" and do evil than others and having done so have no affinity to repent.  Now, to the specific problem that I have.  If G-d created us from nothing how can we justify that G-d created some to have a higher proclivity for evil than others?  If G-d knew in advance that all those that would choose sin because of something he created in them - why did he create that in those that choose sin and never repent?  If G-d created our will to choose - why did he create some with better will choosing than others?  And how is it just that the poor choosers are damned if all they needed was to have been created with a will to choose better?

The only possibility that I can justify is that there is something in our personal individuality that G-d did not create.  Something G-d has no control over that would eventually turn some towards G-d and others away from G-d.  Obviously this would be a one exception to creation that disproves the doctrine of ex nihilo.  What am I missing in our discussion?  

 

The Traveler

Sorry for butting in twice now, but I find this interesting

I would say that any “proclivity” is not defined by our eternal identity. I believe they arise as consequences of how we act upon that which we do control and how we are acted upon by those events we do not control. Only God knows which is which, and how they work together. All of us passed our premortal estate into this one with the aim of being exalted (the “holy order”), so we are all on equal grounds on those points (Alma 13:1-9). No matter how our eternal identity came to be, it is independent of the methods God used to create (organize) us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for engaging in this discussion.  The term agency is a word in the English language that implies a legal connection for one person to act (according to their own choices) legally for another entity.  My father was employed as an Insurance Agent and could legally bind that companies resources to the actions of those of his choosing.  The company to which he was employed had rules and guidelines as to who he could "bind" with coverage of the companies resources.   If my father included those that were not of the type according to the rules - the company was still legally bound regardless.  The only action they could take was to fire (break) the contract of my father's agency and cancel others he bound before claims were made.  If you read carefully the description of agency from your reference to the church publication - you will find that the definition of my father's insurance agency is applicable. 

The point I wanted to make is that G-d's gift of agency to us has legal (under just law) implications for that G-d that granted or gifted that agency to us.  In essence there is a legal responsibility that is attached to agency for which the granter of agency is accountable.   I would point out that agency and its accompanying consequences was the issue in our pre-existence that initiated the war in heaven that continues even now as the great conflict between good and evil.

I have made a logical connection that Jesus (Jehovah) was the means by which we were given agency according to the plan of salvation and that because of that - Jesus was able to act (legally and justly) as our Savior and Redeemer from our sinful and fallen state.  And that only he could have suffered death to redeem us because our agency came by and through him.

As to the foreknowledge of G-d - I am of the impression (speculation) that his knowledge is more sure than you suggest.  I am of the impression that G-d has access to the future as easily and surely as we have knowledge of our past.  Not just as memory but with the essence of a vedeo of the events if you will.  I am impressed with you bringing Alma 32 into the discission - however I am of the impression that Alma 32 applies to those of us that are in our fallen mortal state and that knowledge of a Celestial being is somewhat more direct and not as confined to a time line.   In essence that knowledge of Celestial beings is not dependent on time as a parameter. 

 

The Traveler

“Agency” has many definitions, I referred to the one in the lds.org link I provided. Unlike insurance agents, moral authority entails that we are only “agents unto ourselves.” Like insurance agents, legal authority to act in God’s behalf (priesthood keys) entails the administration of the affairs of His Kingdom. Two valid meanings and applications of the word "agent/agency". Adam and Eve had moral agency, which is what we are talking about here; they also had legal agency in the form of their stewardship and Adam’s priesthood dispensation.

So, God gifts us all moral agency, and calls only certain few of us into positions of legal authority in relation to His Kingdom. The former affects the conflict between good and evil; the latter affects the administration of those who have chosen the good under the auspices of our Great High Priest. This is why Jesus is not the devil’s Savior and Redeemer from his rebellious and outcast state – the devil had and misused his moral agency prior to the conflict between good and evil (the time for him to have chosen to do right would have been before Abraham 3:27).*

I take the faith-knowledge “dynamo” in Alma 32 to be an eternal principle of action and power (both faith and knowledge are power). Semantics certainly come into play here, so on one hand we must emphasize faith in Christ for our own sake while considering that God also applies this principle. Two examples are Moses 1:39 and Abraham 3:23, 25, where some of what He does is based on what comes His way; He seeks a future for us and makes promises in connection with it based on His hopes and in finding us. In such a case, the Father would not have known knew beforehand that Lucifer specifically would use his moral agency to choose evil.

* An interesting article just came out in the Liahona: the time to choose "good" is before the forewarning. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2022/06/04-choose-the-lord-and-his-prophet?lang=eng "The time for the people to repent came before Noah hammered his first nail into what would become the ark. The time for the children of Israel to remember their covenant with Jehovah came before Moses descended Mount Sinai and broke the tablets of stone. The time for Samuel’s contemporaries to reject the idea of a king came before Samuel warned them of their unwise demand."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

Sorry for butting in twice now, but I find this interesting

I would say that any “proclivity” is not defined by our eternal identity. I believe they arise as consequences of how we act upon that which we do control and how we are acted upon by those events we do not control. Only God knows which is which, and how they work together. All of us passed our premortal estate into this one with the aim of being exalted (the “holy order”), so we are all on equal grounds on those points (Alma 13:1-9). No matter how our eternal identity came to be, it is independent of the methods God used to create (organize) us.

Thank you for joining the discussion.  Obviously you have researched and pondered on this topic a great deal.   There is a great deal that can be discussed in relation to this topic.  I will attempt to keep my responses focused on the topic.  From science we realize that time is relative.  Einstein put forth the idea of special reveality that time is relative to speed.  The one constant of speed is the speed of light.  It is theorized that at the speed of light time stops and that a traveler beyond the speed of light will cause time to go backwards - which allows someone (G-d) to "see" the future in a similar manner as we see the past.  Currently in science there is a seemingly contradiction with neutrinos that is yet to be understood (explained).

From revelations it is most difficult for G-d to reveal much beyond our abilities to understand.  The point is that we do know that time is not constant (different from what was understood at the time of the revelations we consider) - which impacts how we define time in relation to the dimensional space in which we currently exist. 

Now let us look at Alma 13 and focus on verse 3 and 4 of that chapter.  Two thing pop out to me in these verses.  The first is the expression of the "foreknowledge" of G-d.  The second has to do with the proclivity of individuals to choose good over evil and to exercise faith.  Note that G-d knew that this proclivity would not change during our mortal probation and therefore they were chosen for places within the order of the priesthood.  This proclivity is explained again in Doctrine and Covenants section 93 verse 31.  Here it is explained that the proclivity spoken of by Alma is connected to our agency.  That because of our agency that "proclivity" which was from the beginning is plainly manifested.  I am of the impression that G-d's foreknowledge included knowledge of this proclivity.  Which is why Alma points out the foreordination of the priesthood prior to the birth of any mortal. 

I believe this proclivity is something that G-d did not create nor have any input of defining.   What is interesting to me is that in verse 30 of the Doctrine and Covenants we are told that without that proclivity and the ability to express it independently - nothing can exist which would include us.  Perhaps this tells us something critical concerning our creation and the "beginning" of our existence - but that is another discussion for another time.  For now we need to be focused on if we or G-d determines our faith and choices.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To paraphrase @Traveler's inquiry, how can a God who created us out of nothing (a traditional Christian understanding) have no responsibility for the bad choices (sinful--evil) of His creation? If they started from nothing and God made them, then God would seem to bare total responsibility for the results, wouldn't He?

There are traditional Christians who subscribe to Predestination--the belief that God does choose sinners and saints. I'm not one of those. Like many traditionalists, I perceive the Bible to declare God's foreknowledge, while at the same time permitting us the capacity to choose our way, for good or ill. What God created in us is the capacity for great good or evil. It is totally on us which direction we go and whether or not we repent if we start out wrong. 

The Apostle Paul says we have no excuse for our sin (Romans 1). He also decries his own weakness in sinning when he does not want to do so and avoiding good when he wants to do it (Romans 7). Still, he ends well, saying towards the end of his life that he had run a good race and fought a good fight. Never does he suggest that God bare any blame.

I believe it is James that tells us not to blame God when we are tempted. God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt. Rather, we are tempted by our own evil desires.

Perhaps you can argue that God did not create the sinful acts that are in our hearts. He did instill in us the capacity, though. There's no blame because that good/evil capacity is what makes us free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

To paraphrase @Traveler's inquiry, how can a God who created us out of nothing (a traditional Christian understanding) have no responsibility for the bad choices (sinful--evil) of His creation? If they started from nothing and God made them, then God would seem to bare total responsibility for the results, wouldn't He?

There are traditional Christians who subscribe to Predestination--the belief that God does choose sinners and saints. I'm not one of those. Like many traditionalists, I perceive the Bible to declare God's foreknowledge, while at the same time permitting us the capacity to choose our way, for good or ill. What God created in us is the capacity for great good or evil. It is totally on us which direction we go and whether or not we repent if we start out wrong. 

The Apostle Paul says we have no excuse for our sin (Romans 1). He also decries his own weakness in sinning when he does not want to do so and avoiding good when he wants to do it (Romans 7). Still, he ends well, saying towards the end of his life that he had run a good race and fought a good fight. Never does he suggest that God bare any blame.

I believe it is James that tells us not to blame God when we are tempted. God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt. Rather, we are tempted by our own evil desires.

Perhaps you can argue that God did not create the sinful acts that are in our hearts. He did instill in us the capacity, though. There's no blame because that good/evil capacity is what makes us free.

 

Predestination does not necessarily require that the Father CHOOSES sinners and saints.  It still allows us to choose.  It DOES mean that he KNOWS everything.  He is Omniscient.  As an Omniscient being he already KNOWS what will happen, who will choose what, and what the results will be.  Because of that, the righteous are already chosen to be saved.  It's already known.

An even crazier idea is that time does NOT exist in heaven.  It is a mortal construct.  Hence, though what we may think is the future, it is only OUR future.  To the Lord in heaven, it is not something in the future, nor something in the past.  It is something that is known that is chosen.  It simply exist and is. 

Hence, it doesn't do away with our choice, so much as what we choose is already a known factor.  It is not something that is going to change, and as it is already a fact, our reward is also, likewise, already set in stone.  In fact, as time doesn't exist in that way, it is something that just is.  It isn't something that is going to happen in the future, it's happening. 

It is hard for our mortal minds to comprehend such a thing (as time doesn't exist, but we can live forever...etc).  In that, it would blend in with the idea of the Trinity and the Athanasian and Nicene Creed.

He is, and is not, something that we can comprehend.  This extends, not just to the Father and the Son and how they are and who they are, but how they may even act and think.  A prime example is how we are very linear in how we view time, while...they are not.

Note:  I am NOT someone who believes in Predestination, or most of the stuff I wrote above, just noting that many who are Calvinist or others who believe in Predestination do not believe that we do not have a CHOICE, or that our choices do not matter.  They still believe we need to choose and we need to choose to follow the Savior, but that while we are choosing, WHAT we will ultimately choose is already known because it is already happening or happened in the Lord's view.  We still have free agency to choose, but because what we choose is already known, the end result is also already known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for joining the discussion.  Obviously you have researched and pondered on this topic a great deal.   There is a great deal that can be discussed in relation to this topic.  I will attempt to keep my responses focused on the topic.  From science we realize that time is relative.  Einstein put forth the idea of special reveality that time is relative to speed.  The one constant of speed is the speed of light.  It is theorized that at the speed of light time stops and that a traveler beyond the speed of light will cause time to go backwards - which allows someone (G-d) to "see" the future in a similar manner as we see the past.  Currently in science there is a seemingly contradiction with neutrinos that is yet to be understood (explained).

From revelations it is most difficult for G-d to reveal much beyond our abilities to understand.  The point is that we do know that time is not constant (different from what was understood at the time of the revelations we consider) - which impacts how we define time in relation to the dimensional space in which we currently exist. 

Now let us look at Alma 13 and focus on verse 3 and 4 of that chapter.  Two thing pop out to me in these verses.  The first is the expression of the "foreknowledge" of G-d.  The second has to do with the proclivity of individuals to choose good over evil and to exercise faith.  Note that G-d knew that this proclivity would not change during our mortal probation and therefore they were chosen for places within the order of the priesthood.  This proclivity is explained again in Doctrine and Covenants section 93 verse 31.  Here it is explained that the proclivity spoken of by Alma is connected to our agency.  That because of our agency that "proclivity" which was from the beginning is plainly manifested.  I am of the impression that G-d's foreknowledge included knowledge of this proclivity.  Which is why Alma points out the foreordination of the priesthood prior to the birth of any mortal. 

I believe this proclivity is something that G-d did not create nor have any input of defining.   What is interesting to me is that in verse 30 of the Doctrine and Covenants we are told that without that proclivity and the ability to express it independently - nothing can exist which would include us.  Perhaps this tells us something critical concerning our creation and the "beginning" of our existence - but that is another discussion for another time.  For now we need to be focused on if we or G-d determines our faith and choices.

 

The Traveler

I think these verses in Alma 13 refer to the consequences of choices made, not the proclivity to make them. All mortals have a “proclivity” to die (though this would be a misnomer with regards to agency because we cannot choose anything but going the way of all the earth). Accountable mortals (the “natural man”) have a “proclivity” to sin, which along with the light of Christ is essential to exercising moral agency an enables our “proclivity” to do good in this world. I don’t see these verses supporting God’s foreknowledge of our specific moral choices, but of the ways we could act.

Narrowly speaking, I think these verses refer to the foreordained calling and preparation of prophets who demonstrated faith and good works premortally. In this case, “foreknowledge” refers to the timing of God’s knowledge in our premortal estate. This was followed by the actual calling of those who then demonstrated the same in mortality (others would reject the Spirit of God). This is similar to the principle that “many are called but few are chosen.” Broadly speaking, I think these verses apply to those who enter the holy order beginning with baptism, to culminate in exaltation. I also believe God's foreknowledge has other reference points than the "timing" in verse 3, having to do with His infinitely greater capacity to forecast and foresee than our own.

Of course, as I mentioned above, God does not determine our faith and choices, irrespective of whether or how He created or organized us. Creatio ex nihilo still allows this, whether we agree with the doctrine or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

To paraphrase @Traveler's inquiry, how can a God who created us out of nothing (a traditional Christian understanding) have no responsibility for the bad choices (sinful--evil) of His creation? If they started from nothing and God made them, then God would seem to bare total responsibility for the results, wouldn't He?

There are traditional Christians who subscribe to Predestination--the belief that God does choose sinners and saints. I'm not one of those. Like many traditionalists, I perceive the Bible to declare God's foreknowledge, while at the same time permitting us the capacity to choose our way, for good or ill. What God created in us is the capacity for great good or evil. It is totally on us which direction we go and whether or not we repent if we start out wrong. 

The Apostle Paul says we have no excuse for our sin (Romans 1). He also decries his own weakness in sinning when he does not want to do so and avoiding good when he wants to do it (Romans 7). Still, he ends well, saying towards the end of his life that he had run a good race and fought a good fight. Never does he suggest that God bare any blame.

I believe it is James that tells us not to blame God when we are tempted. God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt. Rather, we are tempted by our own evil desires.

Perhaps you can argue that God did not create the sinful acts that are in our hearts. He did instill in us the capacity, though. There's no blame because that good/evil capacity is what makes us free.

Thank you again for your response.  I am pleased that our discussion has created some interest.  It is good that there are different views on this subject that can be expressed without anger or someone getting upset.  Thanks to everyone for their kind contributions.  Having pondered this subject for much of my life, as it has been a personal quest for truth - which I believe must be logical in order to insure one has proper understanding.  

There is a long list of parameters that lend themself to the construct and doctrine of what G-d is doing with his work and glory of what I believe to be the greatest achievement of G-d - which is the creation of man.  I am certain that there is ample reason that we ought to worship G-d.  For at least two basic reasons.  First because G-d deserves every bit of worship and second because to do so is an incredible benefit.  As important as worship and becoming one with G-d is - why is it that some will not and where does the responsibility for that fatal flaw reside?

After much study and pondering I have come to the conclusion that there are at least 5 grand principles that govern how G-d deals with mankind.  I have posted those principles in the past.  For now I will leave the thought of those principles to the readers to ponder for themselves - in part to see what others may conclude.  I believe that regardless of whatever path any person takes they will be better off for what G-d had created and done.  I believe that even and every all damned souls are better off than if G-d had done nothing specifically for them.  Paramount  among what G-d has created, organized and provided is his justice and mercy over everything to which he has influence - which is everything. 

Why would anyone sin and not repent?  What within an individual causes them to worship G-d and what is the cause that they would rebel against G-d?  Obvious to me there is something.  Something that exists on its own or something that G-d alone created.  The only rational conclusion that I can imagine is that --- G-d did not create it.  Otherwise G-d could not be the just and merciful being that I believe him to be and this would make my every understanding of G-d and his justice and mercy a most cruel and deceptive scam.   For me this is a pivotal principal that one must have right in order to know and worship the true and living G-d.

Regardless of the arguments - and believe me @prisonchaplain  not only puts forth well studied concepts but his character is to be respected as well.  But the concept that G-d created man from nothing and yet he himself is not responsible for anything - weather we choose good or evil just does not make sense to me - regardless of how I attempt to understand it.  If we are created from nothing and G-d is not responsible for any evil - how can he then be responsible for any good?  What then is the purpose of his creation?  How can we say that G-d is good, just and merciful?  Obviously He is good, just and merciful - but what in his creation makes him good, just and merciful and not evil if he did not create things to be good, just and merciful out of nothing?  I keep coming back to the only other possibility - which is that something in us was not created by G-d that determines our choices towards either good or evil.

But as I started in the beginning of this post - that is this notion of creation of who and what we are, as just one of a list of parameters of why G-d's creations.  And please be patient with me - while I carefully consider my responses in this thread. 

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

Predestination does not necessarily require that the Father CHOOSES sinners and saints.  It still allows us to choose.  It DOES mean that he KNOWS everything.  He is Omniscient.  As an Omniscient being he already KNOWS what will happen, who will choose what, and what the results will be.  Because of that, the righteous are already chosen to be saved.  It's already known.

An even crazier idea is that time does NOT exist in heaven.  It is a mortal construct.  Hence, though what we may think is the future, it is only OUR future.  To the Lord in heaven, it is not something in the future, nor something in the past.  It is something that is known that is chosen.  It simply exist and is. 

Hence, it doesn't do away with our choice, so much as what we choose is already a known factor.  It is not something that is going to change, and as it is already a fact, our reward is also, likewise, already set in stone.  In fact, as time doesn't exist in that way, it is something that just is.  It isn't something that is going to happen in the future, it's happening. 

It is hard for our mortal minds to comprehend such a thing (as time doesn't exist, but we can live forever...etc).  In that, it would blend in with the idea of the Trinity and the Athanasian and Nicene Creed.

He is, and is not, something that we can comprehend.  This extends, not just to the Father and the Son and how they are and who they are, but how they may even act and think.  A prime example is how we are very linear in how we view time, while...they are not.

Note:  I am NOT someone who believes in Predestination, or most of the stuff I wrote above, just noting that many who are Calvinist or others who believe in Predestination do not believe that we do not have a CHOICE, or that our choices do not matter.  They still believe we need to choose and we need to choose to follow the Savior, but that while we are choosing, WHAT we will ultimately choose is already known because it is already happening or happened in the Lord's view.  We still have free agency to choose, but because what we choose is already known, the end result is also already known.

You make some very good points - most of which I choose not to get into the specifics of - yet in our discussion.  I would make one point - time is a construct of change for one cannot exist without the other.  I believe this is the reason we are told that G-d is a unchanging G-d.  But there is much to discuss on these points.  At this juncture I hope to establish the origins of individual choices between good and evil.  If things get too distracted from your point - please keep me in mind for a future discussion.  In the past I think you and I have only glossed over some of our ideas and I would really like to carefully pick your brain of some - what I think - are very interesting thoughts.

Thank you for your interest.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think these verses in Alma 13 refer to the consequences of choices made, not the proclivity to make them. All mortals have a “proclivity” to die (though this would be a misnomer with regards to agency because we cannot choose anything but going the way of all the earth). Accountable mortals (the “natural man”) have a “proclivity” to sin, which along with the light of Christ is essential to exercising moral agency an enables our “proclivity” to do good in this world. I don’t see these verses supporting God’s foreknowledge of our specific moral choices, but of the ways we could act.

Narrowly speaking, I think these verses refer to the foreordained calling and preparation of prophets who demonstrated faith and good works premortally. In this case, “foreknowledge” refers to the timing of God’s knowledge in our premortal estate. This was followed by the actual calling of those who then demonstrated the same in mortality (others would reject the Spirit of God). This is similar to the principle that “many are called but few are chosen.” Broadly speaking, I think these verses apply to those who enter the holy order beginning with baptism, to culminate in exaltation. I also believe God's foreknowledge has other reference points than the "timing" in verse 3, having to do with His infinitely greater capacity to forecast and foresee than our own.

Of course, as I mentioned above, God does not determine our faith and choices, irrespective of whether or how He created or organized us. Creatio ex nihilo still allows this, whether we agree with the doctrine or not.

Thank you for your input.  At this time, I would turn to your last paragraph of your post.  The logic is of great interest to me.  Could you explain your logic how creation ex nihilo guarantees how; what any individual chooses is truly their creation alone and not a parameter of their individual creation?  If G-d created out of nothing - why are there differences and why is G-d not in any way responsible for any possible difference?  How can G-d judge His unique and only His creations without judging Himself?

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

Predestination does not necessarily require that the Father CHOOSES sinners and saints.  It still allows us to choose.  It DOES mean that he KNOWS everything.  He is Omniscient.  As an Omniscient being he already KNOWS what will happen, who will choose what, and what the results will be.  Because of that, the righteous are already chosen to be saved.  It's already known.

You and I agree on this. However, I'm fairly certain that what you are calling predestination is what traditionalists consider foreknowledge. It's what I believe. Predestinationists contend that God, as Almighty Creator, has sovereign authority over His creation, and that He does indeed predestine souls to heaven or hell. They would argue that those who become believers were predestined--that for them grace was irresistible--the I in TULIP teaching.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the issue here may be faith. We all believe in God--Heavenly Father--Creator of all that is. How we understand this God differs, however. Did God form preexisting intelligence into what we now know as humanity or did He make us out of nothing? Traditional Christianity believes the latter--and it's part of our understanding of who God is--Alone in His eternal existence--the one from whom all matter comes into being.

There is a classic joke that we find hilarious. A scientist cries out and says, "God, if your there and you are real, prove yourself or leave us alone!"

Suddenly, the scientist finds himself in an empty void. A voice speaks and says, "Hello. I'm God."

The scientist says, "OK, so you exist. It really doesn't matter. We can now create life, so you can go away."

God responds, "Really? That's great. Show this to me and I'll leave forever."

The scientist then looks around frantically. Finally, he sees a pile of dirt and starts heading towards it. God speaks. "Where are you going?"

The scientist says, "I'm heading over to that pile of dirt so that I can create human life from it."

The last words the scientist ever hears are, "Get your own dirt."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your input.  At this time, I would turn to your last paragraph of your post.  The logic is of great interest to me.  Could you explain your logic how creation ex nihilo guarantees how; what any individual chooses is truly their creation alone and not a parameter of their individual creation?  If G-d created out of nothing - why are there differences and why is G-d not in any way responsible for any possible difference?  How can G-d judge His unique and only His creations without judging Himself?

 

The Traveler

I did not say that creatio ex nihilo guarantees anything, only that it would equally allow (with creatio ex materia and ex nihilo nihil fit) that God does not determine our faith and choices. I don’t think a critique of the means by which He created or organized us is relevant to questions concerning the development of our moral agency. My logic is that He created or organized us one way or another, and rather than determine, enables and facilitates our exercise and expansion of faith, knowledge and agency through the various progressive estates offered in His plan. Thus, we always possessed agency (an attribute of intelligence that is not created or made) in some respects, and He also gave us our agency in other respects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was just thinking: the difference between knowledge and foreknowledge is timing and perspective (foreknowledge fulfilled becomes knowledge, and foreknowledge builds upon knowledge). From our perceptive, God knows certain things as surely ahead of their fulfillment as He does once they are fulfilled. In either case, He is perfect in His awareness (an process of knowledge representing a kind exercised in the present), wisdom (a process representing a kind exercised toward the future) and understanding (a process developed from the past).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share