The Great and Abominable Church


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5 minutes ago, romans8 said:

Did the persons mentioned in the Book of Mormon have different concepts as to what "church" represented, for
example 2 Nephi 28:3,12,18 and Mosiah 25:19,21?

Out of curiosity, what does "church" mean to you?  Is there only one definition? Or do you use the same word with different meanings for different contexts?

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5 hours ago, romans8 said:

Did the persons mentioned in the Book of Mormon have different concepts as to what "church" represented, for
example 2 Nephi 28:3,12,18 and Mosiah 25:19,21?

Certainly, something very like what we would call a “church” comes up very early in Nephite society; with “synagogues” and houses of worship being established in the promised land during Nephi’s own lifetime.

But again, the question is whether whatever term got translated for “church” among a highly idiosyncratic group of Hebrews writing in the Reformed Egyptian script as of the sixth century BC, exclusively (or even primarily) meant a religious organization (as we modernists would understand the term) at the time Nephi had his dream.

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On 7/23/2022 at 9:42 AM, romans8 said:

Did the persons mentioned in the Book of Mormon have different concepts as to what "church" represented, for
example 2 Nephi 28:3,12,18 and Mosiah 25:19,21?

See Posted July 17 and Quahal.

2 Nephi 28:3 ("not unto the Lord") seems to refer to contending denominations within Christendom; :12 seems to refer to secular and materialistic philosophies; and :18 to the church of the devil. Mosiah 25 refers to congregations or assemblies of believers under the same covenant Mosiah established under his priest-king authority.

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On 7/23/2022 at 9:49 AM, Carborendum said:

Out of curiosity, what does "church" mean to you?  Is there only one definition? Or do you use the same word with different meanings for different contexts?

For me , it would mean a religious organization.

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3 hours ago, romans8 said:
On 7/23/2022 at 6:49 AM, Carborendum said:

Out of curiosity, what does "church" mean to you?  Is there only one definition? Or do you use the same word with different meanings for different contexts?

For me , it would mean a religious organization.

Is the ecumenical organization called a "church"? Is the assembled congregation of worshipers called a "church"? Is the building they gather in called a "church"? Because those are three very different things.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vort said:

Is the ecumenical organization called a "church"? Is the assembled congregation of worshipers called a "church"? Is the building they gather in called a "church"? Because those are three very different things.

You don't seem to understand that Jonah has never heard of a scheduled meeting of like minded believers. Nor a fellowship of people with like beliefs.  Nor has he ever heard of a building with a steeple.  

He probably doesn't even understand basic sociological principles like "a religious adherence to a ideology" is a church.

And he apparently doesn't even know about figurative meanings of words either.

Nope, every word has only one meaning in any context no matter what the intent of the author.

We should stop referring to famous entertainers as "stars".  We should stop referring to diagrams with branches as "trees".  In fact, forget about using the word "branches" at all.  That is going to make genealogy pretty tough to discuss.

And when a man wavers in his decisions can't be likened to a wave on the sea, driven with the wind and tossed.

And a "house" has to mean a building that provides shelter.  It can't refer to Satan and his minions.  I don't know what that house divided was about.

And "neighbor" only refers to someone who lives near your principal place of residence.  So, whew, we don't have to love everyone after all.  Just the guys right near our house.

And bearing false witness only refers to testimony given under oath in a court of law.  So, we can lie about anything else we want -- like pretending to be someone new, when we're just a new userid of a person who has already been banned.

I'm glad he cleared all that up for us.

Edited by Carborendum
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On 7/8/2022 at 1:17 PM, mirkwood said:

  The book was endorsed by ETB. 

For those who might be a new member of the Church, or not even a member at all, or just lurking, this stands for Ezra Taft Benson who was a Prophet and president of the Church many years ago.  

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I think it is important to consider that (despite the fact that adherents may deny it) in reality, secularism and its modern associates are religions.  These religions are proselytized by their members.

I think it is not too farfetched to assume that Nephi intended the word "church" to include religious adherents, which would have included the worship of false gods and idols (in the myriad forms in which they present in society).

I think that the influence of the church of the devil is found wherever the philosophies of men are mingled with scripture.  It is most evident and explicit when such a mixture is used aggressively against the truth.  One way we frequently see this is when individuals (especially secular adherents) recite the passage, "Judge not, that ye be not judged"; while they may invoke scripture, usually, the true intention is to justify and coerce acquiescence to sin and evil.

Consider the parable of the ten virgins.  All ten knew of the bridegroom, were looking forward to his coming, and wanted to join him.  How could it be that, despite all being aware of his coming, only five of the virgins knew to have the oil and the other five didn't?  They all knew enough to have a lamp in the first place, enough to be there waiting, and even enough to recognize the call to go out to meet the bridegroom.  If they were aware of all that, it seems to me the only thing that could have impeded their preparation would be an "eat, drink, and be merry" attitude.  In the end, from the perspective of the bridegroom, would these five foolish virgins have been of the Church of God, or the church of the devil?  Who do the ten virgins represent

Perhaps, sadly, members of the church of the devil, and its influence, can be found everywhere in society, even mingling among the members of the Lord's Church.

image.thumb.png.68f662e54fdcef37dce751626af07f8b.png

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42 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

That meme is sadly accurate.

Yes, sadly it is.  😥  I captured that screenshot myself and personally researched to discover that the second commenter is a member who was attending BYU last year.  The tweets were still up last I checked.

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The link: 

By the way, the pic and quote is from a movie called "Salt Lake Punk".  It earned it's R rating so I can't really recommend it.  But the main character eventually comes to the conclusion that out of all the posers pretending to be punk, he's the biggest.  Movie ends with him shaving his head and removing all other symbols of is punk resistance, and accepting his father's offered full ride scholarship to Harvard.

 

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The link: 

By the way, the pic and quote is from a movie called "Salt Lake Punk".  It earned it's R rating so I can't really recommend it.  But the main character eventually comes to the conclusion that out of all the posers pretending to be punk, he's the biggest.  Movie ends with him shaving his head and removing all other symbols of is punk resistance, and accepting his father's offered full ride scholarship to Harvard.

 

I saw that movie years before I joined the church. Haven’t thought of it in awhile. 

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7 hours ago, person0 said:

Yes, sadly it is.  😥  I captured that screenshot myself and personally researched to discover that the second commenter is a member who was attending BYU last year.  The tweets were still up last I checked

While I understand this line of thinking, I don't see this as an example of the parable of the ten virgins.

The 10 virgins are faithful saints.  Someone sowing seeds of discontent are not faithful saints.  The five foolish actually believe, on a basic level.  They even want the Church's missions to succeed and the word of the Lord to be preached in strength and righteousness.  But they don't have the spiritual fuel to withstand significant trials (from whatever source). 

They are easily misled.

They will have a greater tendency to give up on their faith if really pressed.

They are being spiritually carried by those stronger in the faith.

They may still hold more worldly beliefs when forced into the dichotomy.

The parable is not about wolves in sheep's clothing.  In fact, the weakness itself describes the 5 foolish.  Whereas, the interloper has to be strong to carry on their mission.

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The word virgin in this context means a young girl, someone below the age of marriage.   The emphasis here is on her age, not on her sexual status.

As a normal part of their community activities, these girls were invited to participate in a wedding. The young girls traditionally formed a procession that marched through the streets in advance of the bridegroom. The Lord used this idea of young girls celebrating a community event to illustrate the the naivety and foolishness of some among his followers who meant well and were good hearted, but who did not prepare themselves as they needed.

Or so it has been explained to me. 

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While I understand this line of thinking, I don't see this as an example of the parable of the ten virgins.

I was not intending to use the tweet as an example of the parable of the ten virgins, only as an example of the fact that we can reasonably expect to find the influence and 'members' of the church of the devil everywhere.  I had multiple thoughts that were all placed in the same post.

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The five foolish actually believe, on a basic level. . .

Absolutely, that's the whole point.  I know many active and faithful members who have been misled.  The problem is that those who are misled often intentionally spread their misguided beliefs to others, because they do not see their beliefs as misguided.  When the Lord looks at them and tells them "I know you not", do you think he considers them to be part of the Church of the Lamb of God, or the church of the devil?

I think most of us (myself included) have not tried to interpret passages such as the parable of the 10 virgins through the lens of 1 Ne 14:10.  In the Church it is really rare for us to split things so dichotomously, however, that is exactly how Nephi does it when he teaches that there are only two churches.  This distinction is much different than the distinctions we have come to understand through the revelation recorded in D&C 76.  With each spiritually significant decision we make, we either move towards light or towards darkness.  What if we consider the parable of the wheat and tares through this lens, would you view that differently?

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(Link)

Considering the above, is it unreasonable to assume that at least some of the 5 foolish virgins either directly or indirectly had spread their foolishness to others?  That perhaps some of the 5 started out okay but were misled to believe they didn't need to bring oil because one of their foolish 'friends' told them it would be fine?  It seems clear to me that in both parables, ultimately, the unfaithful are cast out/burned.  It should go without saying, but just to make sure, none of this should be interpreted to suggest the misled will not inherit a kingdom of glory.

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23 hours ago, person0 said:

One way we frequently see this is when individuals (especially secular adherents) recite the passage, "Judge not, that ye be not judged"; while they may invoke scripture, usually, the true intention is to justify and coerce acquiescence to sin and evil.

 

You should read the revised version of Matthew 7. I love it! It's such a great chapter because it fully aligns with my worldly views of never judging others. 

 

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10 hours ago, person0 said:

I was not intending to use the tweet as an example of the parable of the ten virgins, only as an example of the fact that we can reasonably expect to find the influence and 'members' of the church of the devil everywhere.  I had multiple thoughts that were all placed in the same post...

Interesting.  This gave me food for thought.

I had thought of these different analogies as separate metaphors.  But the way you present them, they appear to be gradual stages of apostasy.

The five foolish are the most innocent/naive (concerning spiritual things) which may have contributed to their foolishness.

Then the wheats and tares analogy would be the next stage.  An initially foolish person gradually goes toward being a tare.  They are initially led.  Then they come to accept/embrace false doctrine.

The third stage is when they come to reject the true faith, and they lie in wait to deceive.

I recall a certain former participant on this forum (she may have been before you joined) who was a convert, but carried with her some of her old belief system and tried to merge it with her new found faith.

What she eventually had to face was that some things that simply would not merge.  At some point, she had to make a decision which was true.  More often than not, she chose the old beliefs.

At first, she (I believe rather innocently) tried to fit the square peg into the round hole in her contributions to this forum as well as in Sunday School (based on her accounts).

At some point a crisis happened at church.  she was offended.  And frankly, I would have been offended as well had I been in her shoes.  But instead of recognizing that people get things wrong no matter what faith one professes, she ended up blaming the Church.

Eventually, she found herself losing her faith.  I had no further contact after that.  

While I don't have any additional account, the natural pattern is for her to become a critic of the Church.  She actually was a critic without realizing it -- even when she was a recent convert.  The only question is whether she is a critic inside the Church or outside.

Why is this the natural pattern?  She had no humility.  In her mind, she already knew what was true.  She felt it was her job to get the Faith to change, rather than to realign her ideas to fit the revealed word of God.

I get the sense that initially she may have been fine with simply keeping it to herself and thinking "I just see it differently." And that, I hope, is what most of us should be doing.  But at some point, we need to align our mind with the mind of God.  She never thought she needed to .  So all it took was one crisis and she was gone.

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6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I had thought of these different analogies as separate metaphors.  But the way you present them, they appear to be gradual stages of apostasy.

I can appreciate that perspective.

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On 7/31/2022 at 11:01 PM, ldsguy422 said:

You should read the revised version of Matthew 7. I love it! It's such a great chapter because it fully aligns with my worldly views of never judging others. 

On 7/30/2022 at 11:29 PM, person0 said:

Perhaps, sadly, members of the church of the devil, and its influence, can be found everywhere in society, even mingling among the members of the Lord's Church.

I felt inspired to read through Matt 7 again.  I found it interesting that it had a LOT of input into this conversation about the 10 virgins, wheats and tares, &...

Quote

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I have not really read the Sermon on the Mount for a very long time.  I had forgotten just how meaty and concise it really is.

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On 7/30/2022 at 10:29 PM, person0 said:

I think it is important to consider that (despite the fact that adherents may deny it) in reality, secularism and its modern associates are religions.  These religions are proselytized by their members.

I think it is not too farfetched to assume that Nephi intended the word "church" to include religious adherents, which would have included the worship of false gods and idols (in the myriad forms in which they present in society).

I think that the influence of the church of the devil is found wherever the philosophies of men are mingled with scripture.  It is most evident and explicit when such a mixture is used aggressively against the truth.  One way we frequently see this is when individuals (especially secular adherents) recite the passage, "Judge not, that ye be not judged"; while they may invoke scripture, usually, the true intention is to justify and coerce acquiescence to sin and evil.

Consider the parable of the ten virgins.  All ten knew of the bridegroom, were looking forward to his coming, and wanted to join him.  How could it be that, despite all being aware of his coming, only five of the virgins knew to have the oil and the other five didn't?  They all knew enough to have a lamp in the first place, enough to be there waiting, and even enough to recognize the call to go out to meet the bridegroom.  If they were aware of all that, it seems to me the only thing that could have impeded their preparation would be an "eat, drink, and be merry" attitude.  In the end, from the perspective of the bridegroom, would these five foolish virgins have been of the Church of God, or the church of the devil?  Who do the ten virgins represent

Perhaps, sadly, members of the church of the devil, and its influence, can be found everywhere in society, even mingling among the members of the Lord's Church.

image.thumb.png.68f662e54fdcef37dce751626af07f8b.png

Yep, a specific site that wants members to "think" are just this type of individuals. At least the ones who are in charge of the site. They are a prime example of this meme.

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15 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Yep, a specific site that wants members to "think" are just this type of individuals. At least the ones who are in charge of the site. They are a prime example of this meme.

If you are referring to a "LDS" political forum, you are dead on.

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On 8/2/2022 at 10:15 AM, Carborendum said:

I felt inspired to read through Matt 7 again.  I found it interesting that it had a LOT of input into this conversation about the 10 virgins, wheats and tares, &...

I have not really read the Sermon on the Mount for a very long time.  I had forgotten just how meaty and concise it really is.

 

President Lee called the Sermon on the Mount, "the constitution for a perfect life." I think it's fair to say that it teaches more about true discipleship than any other passage of scripture. 

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On 7/31/2022 at 8:10 AM, person0 said:

Yes, sadly it is.  😥  I captured that screenshot myself and personally researched to discover that the second commenter is a member who was attending BYU last year.  The tweets were still up last I checked.

Burke has a (more-faithful-than-he) sister on Twitter who doesn’t think too highly of him.  Apparently Burke is quite the piece of work; there’s talk of him having made a perjured accusation of domestic violence against a parent or some such thing.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Burke has a (more-faithful-than-he) sister on Twitter who doesn’t think too highly of him.

That’s just really sad. It’s one thing to have people hate you. Honestly, if everyone likes you you probably aren’t that interesting.
 

But when immediate family has feuds like this, it’s more sad than anything else. 

Edited by LDSGator
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