Carborendum Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: I see the similarity in the nose structure, but the lower jaw and eye corners look different to me. Maybe that’s attributable to Joseph’s face having reportedly been bashed with the butt of a musket postmortem; I don’t know. My bigger question is: why didn’t we know about it before now? The locker is traced to 1869 when Joseph III’s (second) wife, Bertha Madison, is wearing it in a photograph. Bertha Madison has a life sketch up on FamilySearch. She only converted to (RLDS) Mormonism in the mid-1860s, seems never to have met the Prophet, and would have been barely a year old even if she had. Why is she carrying around the picture of a father-in-law she never met, and why is she apparently the only member of a Restorationist sect who possessed such a picture? Joseph III lived until 1914 and the locket remained in the family—he knew it existed and, if he thought it depicted his father, he could have had the picture published anytime he wanted. Why didn’t he? Looking at her photo in FamilySearch, Bertha Madison Smith has sort of pronounced lower jaw and almost puffy-ish lower cheeks that to my mind resemble the lower jaw and cheeks of the man in the newly-discovered photo. This is just a guess; but to my mind the man in the locket is more likely some family member of hers—perhaps her father Mads Madison (1813-1893). If we take all your points here and put it together with other things we know, the point of intersection of these lines would be that the photograph is of Joseph III. That would be supported by the fact that while I don't believe it is Joseph II's face, it certainly would pass for a near male relative. @scottyg mentioned Samuel. That's also a possibility. But being in Bertha's locket, a more likely candidate would be Joseph III. Your theory of the picture being from her side of the family is also valid. But that would discount any blood relation to Joseph II. It is also possible that Bertha's family shared some physiological/facial similarities with the Smith family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 @mikbone our friendly boomer lawyer @Just_A_Guy made some great points. I recommend not betting the house on the authenticity of the pic! NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted July 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) On 7/22/2022 at 2:31 PM, Just_A_Guy said: I see the similarity in the nose structure, but the lower jaw and eye corners look different to me. Maybe that’s attributable to Joseph’s face having reportedly been bashed with the butt of a musket postmortem; I don’t know. My bigger question is: why didn’t we know about it before now? The locket is traced to 1869 when Joseph III’s (second) wife, Bertha Madison, is wearing it in a photograph. Bertha Madison has a life sketch up on FamilySearch. She only converted to (RLDS) Mormonism in the mid-1860s, seems never to have met the Prophet, and would have been barely a year old even if she had. Why is she carrying around the picture of a father-in-law she never met, and why is she apparently the only member of a Restorationist sect who possessed such a picture? Joseph III lived until 1914 and the locket remained in the family—he knew it existed and, if he thought it depicted his father, he could have had the picture reproduced and published anytime he wanted. Why didn’t he? Looking at her photo in FamilySearch, Bertha Madison Smith has sort of pronounced lower jaw. almost puffy-ish lower cheeks and mouth, and drooping outside corners of the eyes that to my mind resemble the face of the man in the newly-discovered photo. This is just a guess; but to my mind the man in the locket is more likely some family member of hers—perhaps her father Mads Madison (1813-1893). We already know that the locket and daguerreotype in question were created in the 1940's “We concur that the daguerreotype and locket were created of the materials and methods appropriate to the 1840s. However, as nothing is definitively known about the locket’s history before 1992, we cannot draw a conclusion about who is pictured in the daguerreotype. We welcome the recent publication of the image and hope it will prompt the discovery of additional information helpful to determining its authenticity.” Official statement from the Church We know that Joseph Smith had the means, motive, and opportunity to have his daguerreotype taken and placed into this locket. I'm not sure that you can say the same about someone in Bertha Madison Smith's lineage. Im my mind there are 3 possibilities: 1) The daguerreotype and locket are legitimate. Possibly Emma Smith bent over the finial to keep Joseph to herself. 😎 2) It may be a legitimate mistake and it could be someone else that was dear to the Smith Family that had his picture taken during the 1840's who had 19 of 21 measured features matching with a 95% confidendce interval the death mask of Joseph Smith Jr. 3) It could be a masterful hoax. And Dan Larsen could be doing this for the filthy lucre. I like it for Joseph Smith. This guy in the middle has seen some stuff. The forehead of the first 2 images are uncanny (hairline left side comes to a corner, right side is rounded. frown crease next to the left eyebrow). Also notice that Joseph shows more of his right ear than the left. The hair and clothes are a perfect match. As for comparison with the death mask, deep set eyes, nose, & intraocular distance are the same. When a person expires the jaw opens, the masseter muscle no longer has tone and the distance between the cheek bones and the chin elongates (this is why the mortitian almost always wires the jaw shut). Edited July 24, 2022 by mikbone NoMiddleName, Still_Small_Voice and Just_A_Guy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted July 24, 2022 Report Share Posted July 24, 2022 On 7/22/2022 at 10:30 PM, mikbone said: could be a masterful hoax Never thought about that. Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted July 25, 2022 Report Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) On 7/22/2022 at 8:30 PM, mikbone said: I like it for Joseph Smith. This guy in the middle has seen some stuff. The forehead of the first 2 images are uncanny (hairline left side comes to a corner, right side is rounded. frown crease next to the left eyebrow). Also notice that Joseph shows more of his right ear than the left. The hair and clothes are a perfect match. As for comparison with the death mask, deep set eyes, nose, & intraocular distance are the same. When a person expires the jaw opens, the masseter muscle no longer has tone and the distance between the cheek bones and the chin elongates (this is why the mortitian almost always wires the jaw shut). It will be interesting to see if other facial recognition experts can/do replicate these results. I respect your medical knowledge, but I continue to maintain that the eye shape (especially at the outward corners) is different and the bulbous nose tip on the death mask creates some doubt for me. Without verification and near-consensus by additional facial recognition experts and/or a convincing theory as to why Joseph III didn’t have the picture published, I think I’m going to remain skeptical at this point. Here’s Bertha Madison, by the way: Edited July 25, 2022 by Just_A_Guy Carborendum and mikbone 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted July 27, 2022 Report Share Posted July 27, 2022 I don't know all of the who's who in Mormon history, but Ardis comes across as one who knows her stuff. She's not convinced: http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2022/07/27/is-it-joseph-smith-the-scotch-verdict/ Her official verdict is "not proven" Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 I'm going with, Hyrum. Carborendum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted July 29, 2022 Report Share Posted July 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Anddenex said: I'm going with, Hyrum. That does look more like Hyrum's death mask than Joseph's. I could believe it. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted August 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2022 (edited) “… and this guy looks like he might have had a broken jaw” - my favorite comment. He makes some good points and uses photoshop for accurate measurements between the daguerrotype, death mask, and the 1942 Rogers painting. This scar for example… Edited August 21, 2022 by mikbone LDSGator and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoMiddleName Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) When I recall the life and trials of Joseph Smith. When I consider the turmoil of pioneer life. The persecution as well as the dogged determination required to keep a continually brow beaten people inspired. This man has the right amount of rugged features combined with a once handsome boyish good looking charmer. Who, unfortunately, has felt the weight of pioneer life for longer than your average man should or could. I like this image. I can see this man ( for want of a better way of putting it ) having the shoulders to hold his own in conversation with Brigham Young. He looks earnest. He's loved and lost. His eyes tell a story of tragedy but hope. It's an inspiring yet haunting image for sure. I like it. Edited September 5, 2022 by NoMiddleName mikbone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted September 7, 2022 Report Share Posted September 7, 2022 On 7/27/2022 at 3:04 PM, MrShorty said: I don't know all of the who's who in Mormon history, but Ardis comes across as one who knows her stuff. She's not convinced: http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2022/07/27/is-it-joseph-smith-the-scotch-verdict/ Her official verdict is "not proven" I'm only an amateur Church Historian, but count me among those not convinced. We actually have several drawings of Joseph Smith from contemporaries of his. Most are consistent with what we see with his Death Mask (though, ironically there have been those that have conjectured that we got the Death Masks for Hyrum and Joseph Switched...which is what I am betting those who are pushing this as Joseph's daguerrotype may eventually fall back onto as well). This daguerrotype doesn't really match the other presentations of Joseph, and even if we accept the switched death mask theory, it really doesn't resemble Hyrum that strongly either. That said If anyone, this has more of a resemblance to Hyrum, but I think @Just_A_Guy has the strongest argument of which I've seen, this looks like a relative of the lady and the picture he posted of her more than it does for an extended connection to Joseph or Hyrum. It doesn't match the other images of Hyrum or Joseph that we have, albeit most being more hand drawn sketches and such rather than intricate paintings of drawings. LDSGator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted March 4, 2023 Report Share Posted March 4, 2023 I recall someone's description of Joseph as having lengthy eyelashes that would make most women jealous. Is there a reason why he wouldn't have much in the way of eyelashes in this photo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhold Posted March 4, 2023 Report Share Posted March 4, 2023 6 hours ago, Carborendum said: I recall someone's description of Joseph as having lengthy eyelashes that would make most women jealous. Is there a reason why he wouldn't have much in the way of eyelashes in this photo? Unless they had to trim his facial hair somewhat. That's the only thing I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 4, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Carborendum said: I recall someone's description of Joseph as having lengthy eyelashes that would make most women jealous. Is there a reason why he wouldn't have much in the way of eyelashes in this photo? Probably asking too much from a daguerreotype. The death mask is fuzzy on the eyelashes too. Likely due to the medium. Also, the boys in my family have outrageous eyelashes in our youth, but they are less pronounced in middle age. Curiously, if you compare the eyebrows of the image with the death mask… His left eyebrow is sparse with what looks like an oblique scar over the lateral aspect of the brow. The right eyebrow is bushy medially and fades laterally. Im 99.9% sure this is the man. Edited March 5, 2023 by mikbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted March 5, 2023 Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 18 hours ago, mikbone said: Probably asking too much from a daguerreotype. The death mask is fuzzy on the eyelashes too. Likely due to the medium. Also, the boys in my family have outrageous eyelashes in our youth, but they are less pronounced in middle age. Curiously, if you compare the eyebrows of the image with the death mask… His left eyebrow is sparse with what looks like an oblique scar over the lateral aspect of the brow. The right eyebrow is bushy medially and fades laterally. ... Im 99.9% sure this is the man. I am conceding the eyebrow. (cue Elliot Spencer) It's a very distinctive brow. But, no, the eyelashes would not be too much to ask of the daguerreotype. The detail of the brow itself seems to indicate that the eyelashes would have been caught as well. The description of the length of his eyelashes was of when he was an adult, not a child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted March 5, 2023 Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 18 hours ago, Ironhold said: Unless they had to trim his facial hair somewhat. That's the only thing I can think of. Trim his facial hair? Have you ever heard of doing that to eyelashes for a photo? If anything, they would have pronounced them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Carborendum said: The description of the length of his eyelashes was of when he was an adult, not a child. Source? A neighbor to the Smith family knew Joseph when he was a teenager. The neighbor wrote, “He was a big-bodied, flaxen-haired youth, with small hands for his size, large feet, … a heavy growth of very light hair, and striking blue eyes, half hidden by long light lashes. Even then he was considered handsome. To everybody he was known as ‘Young Joe Smith,’ to distinguish him from his father, who was ‘Old Joe Smith.’” Personally I had outrageous eyelashes as a child and probably into my 30s. I used to routinely plucky out loose ones as they would fall into my eye, get tangled with other lashes, clash into the lenses of sunglasses, etc.. Now that i’m in my 50’s I dont have that problem. I traded my eyelash fun for long and unruly ear, nose, and eyebrow hairs… Edited March 5, 2023 by mikbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 19 hours ago, mikbone said: Source? Took a while to find. And this is not the complete quote I read many years ago. But it is the best I can find for now. Quote But the Prophet’s most remarkable feature is his eye. Not that it is very large, or very bright, very thoughtful or very restless, or even very deep in its expression or location; for it is usually neither of them. The hue is light hazel, and it is shaded, and, at times almost veiled by the longest, thickest light lashes you ever saw belonging to a man. -- A reporter from a St. Louis newspaper (The Weekly Gazette) interviewed Joseph Smith and wrote a detailed description of his appearance. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2005/12/what-did-joseph-smith-really-look-like?lang=eng https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-apostles-last-dispensation/joseph-smith-jr#_edn7 The article is dated 1834 (So, Joseph was 28 at the time). The more complete quote I read many years ago did make the comment that women would be jealous of his lashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) On 3/6/2023 at 9:26 AM, Carborendum said: The more complete quote I read many years ago did make the comment that women would be jealous of his lashes. A guy I know. Not very apparent from a frontal shot. In all its glory on profile. Edited March 9, 2023 by mikbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carborendum Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 18 minutes ago, mikbone said: A guy I know. Wouldn't happen to be in your household, now, would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 2 hours ago, Carborendum said: Wouldn't happen to be in your household, now, would it? Carborendum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Skulls-and-Crossed-Bones-A-Forensic-Study-of-the-Remains-of-Hyrum-and-Joseph-Smith.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 So, I still am not buying the picture is the same as Joseph. For starters, the parts which would NOT change do not match. For example, the brows and brow line, whether reveresed or not...do not match. The bones that marcate the brow do not change in death. The BIGGER mark though is that the entire theory seems to rely on the fact that Emma misidentified what her own husband looked like and called for paintings and pictures of him that did not look like her husband. That's the part I think I find the hardest to believe out of what they are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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