Still not neutral

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I am amazed that the official word from the church on the location of Book of Mormon events is that they are neutral about the subject. And yet, they put out films about the Book of Mormons that show the characters walking through tropical rainforests and standing on Ziggurats. There are so many problems with ziggurats, especially since they are a violation of the Law of Moses. When I watch the Book of Mormon media I am very distracted by this. It is very disappointing. Nephi says specifically that he built the temple after the design of the temple of Solomon. Sigh.

Quote

 

Exodus 20:24-26

24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

They used earthen or stone ramps to go to the alter, also, the alter was not made from cut stones.

 

 

Quote

2 Nephi 5:16

And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

They could have done these with buildings that were more in line with what the Jews knew how to build, they could have remained neutral, but BYU especially, seems to have an agenda because they make millions of dollars every year on tours to Meso-America. Can't make that much if they did bus tours of north America I guess.

I suppose I am just tired of alternate locations not even being considered by the wise.

Quote

2 Nephi 9:42-43

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.

 

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

And yet, they put out films about the Book of Mormons that show the characters walking through tropical rainforests

It's an artist's impression.  Did you honestly expect the background to be exactly as YOU think is correct?

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

and standing on Ziggurats. There are so many problems with ziggurats, especially since they are a violation of the Law of Moses.

Where is that from?  They can't build a temple based on priestcraft.  But just make a building that is pyramid shaped and has stairs?  I totally don't get that reading from the Law.

The prohibition of "steps"?  There were steps in Solomon's Temple.   

Beyond that, I don't know which video you're speaking of.  How do you know the building you're referring to was a temple?And where was the altar in this media you're referring to?

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

They could have done these with buildings that were more in line with what the Jews knew how to build, they could have remained neutral, but BYU especially, seems to have an agenda because they make millions of dollars every year on tours to Meso-America. Can't make that much if they did bus tours of north America I guess.

Gee, cynical much? Why weren't you upset by the clothing they were wearing?  That robe the Savior wears in that image above sure doesn't align with the description of how Moroni dressed.  Why didn't they make it like that one?  And the colors of the robes on the people... Those colors would have been much more vibrant.  We know this from archeaology.

You can complain about a whole bunch of stuff that is not doctrinal and has no impact on doctrine or teachings.  But you may want to consider the meaning of the phrase "looking beyond the mark".

FTR, I have considered the US location of the Nephite nation as a valid school of thought.  I don't see why it had to be in Central or South America.  But I don't see why it can't be there either.  But you've become just as convinced of your school of thought as others are of the Central American school of thought.  Yet, it is wrong for another school of thought to be used in an artist's impression.  But it would be perfectly fine for your school of thought to be endorsed?

The Church has taken a neutral position.  But it seems that you believe yours is perfectly accurate.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

. . ., but BYU especially, seems to have an agenda because they make millions of dollars every year on tours to Meso-America. Can't make that much if they did bus tours of north America I guess.

To the contrary, I understand that many travel agencies and tour guides do very well by peddling bus tours of sites around North America that are of particular interest to one niche group or another.  Some of these tour guides, I hear, make a very handsome profit by marketing to the BoM heartlander crowd in particular.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

To the contrary, I understand that many travel agencies and tour guides do very well by peddling bus tours of sites around North America that are of particular interest to one niche group or another.  Some of these tour guides, I hear, make a very handsome profit by marketing to the BoM heartlander crowd in particular.

There are companies that do that? Not a challenge, just surprised. I honestly didn't think there would be a big enough demand for it. 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Don't get me wrong. I am glad that these films are being made, I just wish they would stop with the Mayan type designs. The Mayans were a blood thirsty people that sacrificed humans to their gods. They could have designed the the sets to represent a location other than the usual Meso-American background. They already did this with Testaments and the CES productions. Why not represent some of the other possible locational civilizations that existed across north America this time? The early European exploration discovered huge cities in the Mississippi valley region as early as the 1500's. Consider the explorations of Hernando de Soto in the early 1540's. He found cities that had hundreds of thousands of people that were eventually wiped out by European Diseases. Why not represent their civilization as a model for films about the Book of Mormon.

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Consider also, the American South west Hopi and Anasazi constructions from the time period of the fist century AD.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

There are companies that do that? Not a challenge, just surprised. I honestly didn't think there would be a big enough demand for it. 

It’s a boomer thing; you wouldn’t understand.  (Or, would you?)

But seriously:  yeah, my parents and aunts/uncles have done a number of multi-day historic sites tours by bus.

Here’s an example of a similar BoM Heartlander tour:  https://bookofmormonevidence.org/tours/

And here’s another site profiteering off of purported church history tours: https://truthseekersfoundation.com/adventures/joseph-smith-foundation/

Edited August 19, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It’s a boomer thing; you wouldn’t understand.  (Or, would you?)

The only boomer thing I really understand is hating everyone who thinks differently than me. 😉 

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

The only boomer thing I really understand is hating everyone who thinks differently than me. 😉 

 

It might just be the Florida sports logo.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

It might just be the Florida sports logo.

ROFL!!! Truth!!!!! 

[LDSGator]

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Here’s an example of a similar BoM Heartlander tour:  https://bookofmormonevidence.org/tours/

Dude!! @Just_A_Guy that stops in Crystal River. Literally the next town over from me!!!

[LDSGator]

I’ve been to Crystal River archeological site many, many times. Very cool spot. 

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’ve been to Crystal River archeological site many, many times. Very cool spot. 

I’ll forbear making any jokes about your residence being an archaeological site.

@pam, however, has no such assurance.  

[pam]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ll forbear making any jokes about your residence being an archaeological site.

@pam, however, has no such assurance.  

Wow.  Just wow.  

[LDSGator]

47 minutes ago, pam said:

Wow.  Just wow.  

We are all worried about his mental decline @pam. Don't worry, Mrs. Jag is looking into long term care homes. 😞 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

We are all worried about his mental decline @pam. Don't worry, Mrs. Jag is looking into long term care homes. 😞 

Well, she’s looking into something . . . Not sure exactly what, but from what I can gather it involves my life insurance policy, a shovel, a Hefty bag, and my back yard.

I just love surprises!

Edited August 20, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, she’s looking into something . . . Not sure exactly what, but from what I can gather it involves my life insurance policy, a shovel, a Hefty bag, and my back yard.

I just love surprises!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Uh, if her and LadyGator ever get together you and I should hit the road,  honorable esquire! 

[Anddenex]

These are items I ponder when considering the neutral stance of Church leaders regarding the location of the Book of Mormon:

1) I once read in a book that Joseph Smith once said that the Nephites and Lamanites spanned all of North (including Canada) and South America. We know a group of Nephites sailed, returned and sailed again never to return. So, there could be many places that could be seen as the "right" spot for the Book of Mormon.

2) Are they neutral because the Lord has not given them permission to specify? I can see this for a couple reasons. The first would be the Lord is trying the faith of his sons and daughters. If the Lord doesn't want it revealed, the prophets/apostles will not be able to reveal it -- ergo -- neutral stance.

The second would be anti-Church and ex-members who are looking for any opportunity to discredit the Church while calling themselves "critical thinkers" and "trust seekers." When in reality they are looking for any reason (even if it isn't a complete truth) to remain in their stance. The Lord could reveal. Then "evidence" could be found that it could be another place (refer to #1), and then these individual use this "evidence" to discredit the Church, uprooting wheat with the tares.

We could probably think of plausible reasons other than these two as to why the Church remains neutral and continues with what has always been done.

..........

Where does that picture come from regarding the Hopi?

[Vort]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:36 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am amazed that the official word from the church on the location of Book of Mormon events is that they are neutral about the subject. And yet, they put out films about the Book of Mormons that show the characters walking through tropical rainforests and standing on Ziggurats. There are so many problems with ziggurats, especially since they are a violation of the Law of Moses. When I watch the Book of Mormon media I am very distracted by this. It is very disappointing. Nephi says specifically that he built the temple after the design of the temple of Solomon. Sigh.

 

They could have done these with buildings that were more in line with what the Jews knew how to build, they could have remained neutral, but BYU especially, seems to have an agenda because they make millions of dollars every year on tours to Meso-America. Can't make that much if they did bus tours of north America I guess.

I suppose I am just tired of alternate locations not even being considered by the wise.

I agree on principle with the thrust of what you've written. I feel many of the same frustrations about popular historical portrayals, especially Book of Mormon portrayals. I, too, am disturbed by much of what I see as profit-taking from gullible and all-too-eager Saints. Come on, folks! Show a modicum of healthy skepticism! Book of Mormon tour, indeed.

On the other hand, I think your specific criticisms might be unwarranted. My understanding is as follows:

The pre-Columbian pyramidal structures that we sometimes (incorrectly) call ziggurats were platforms, not buildings per se. They were often surmounted by a small temple or other edifice. These pyramids go back many thousands of years, 2000 BC at least, clear up to classical Mayan and even Aztec times. They were certainly no Lehite invention, but may well have been incorporated as a structural feature into Nephite construction, assuming a Mesoamerican setting and a sizeable population. So I don't think it's unreasonable to include a stepped pyramid as an element in a Book of Mormon film to add a taste of historical authenticity.

(It's worth noting that the "steps" in the architecture of the sides of these stepped temples are several feet high. They could maybe have been used as a sort of staircase by people 40 feet tall.)

The Exodus verses strike me as problematic in application. The ban on hewn stone looks to have applied specifically to the altar, not to the surrounding edifice or anything else. Similarly, the ban on steps looks to have been in approaching the altar, not in the overall temple construction.

Just a few thoughts for your consideration.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:50 AM, Vort said:

I agree on principle with the thrust of what you've written. I feel many of the same frustrations about popular historical portrayals, especially Book of Mormon portrayals. I, too, am disturbed by much of what I see as profit-taking from gullible and all-too-eager Saints. Come on, folks! Show a modicum of healthy skepticism! Book of Mormon tour, indeed.

On the other hand, I think your specific criticisms might be unwarranted. My understanding is as follows:

The pre-Columbian pyramidal structures that we sometimes (incorrectly) call ziggurats were platforms, not buildings per se. They were often surmounted by a small temple or other edifice. These pyramids go back many thousands of years, 2000 BC at least, clear up to classical Mayan and even Aztec times. They were certainly no Lehite invention, but may well have been incorporated as a structural feature into Nephite construction, assuming a Mesoamerican setting and a sizeable population. So I don't think it's unreasonable to include a stepped pyramid as an element in a Book of Mormon film to add a taste of historical authenticity.

(It's worth noting that the "steps" in the architecture of the sides of these stepped temples are several feet high. They could maybe have been used as a sort of staircase by people 40 feet tall.)

The Exodus verses strike me as problematic in application. The ban on hewn stone looks to have applied specifically to the altar, not to the surrounding edifice or anything else. Similarly, the ban on steps looks to have been in approaching the altar, not in the overall temple construction.

Just a few thoughts for your consideration.

You might be right, but I think the main reason I am bothered is the venom that seems to be shown toward anyone that does not believe the Meso American model. They are even sometimes called heretics. I personally believe the locations for the Book of Mormon could have been in the American South west, but I don't like the bitterness that seems to be directed at anyone that does not fall in line with the Sorensen locations in Mexico.

[mirkwood]

They are venomous because in their hearts they know they are wrong and should be following the heartland model.

[DMGNUT]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:13 PM, Anddenex said:

These are items I ponder when considering the neutral stance of Church leaders regarding the location of the Book of Mormon:

1) I once read in a book that Joseph Smith once said that the Nephites and Lamanites spanned all of North (including Canada) and South America. We know a group of Nephites sailed, returned and sailed again never to return. So, there could be many places that could be seen as the "right" spot for the Book of Mormon.

2) Are they neutral because the Lord has not given them permission to specify? I can see this for a couple reasons. The first would be the Lord is trying the faith of his sons and daughters. If the Lord doesn't want it revealed, the prophets/apostles will not be able to reveal it -- ergo -- neutral stance.

The second would be anti-Church and ex-members who are looking for any opportunity to discredit the Church while calling themselves "critical thinkers" and "trust seekers." When in reality they are looking for any reason (even if it isn't a complete truth) to remain in their stance. The Lord could reveal. Then "evidence" could be found that it could be another place (refer to #1), and then these individual use this "evidence" to discredit the Church, uprooting wheat with the tares.

We could probably think of plausible reasons other than these two as to why the Church remains neutral and continues with what has always been done.

..........

Where does that picture come from regarding the Hopi?

Chaco Canyon... north western New Mexico.

[NeuroTypical]

I get a big kick watching folks grapple with the issues that immediately present themselves the second an artist tries to depict something that happened.  Whether we have good documentation of it, or a scriptural account, or even live streamed video of the event, making art of something automatically loses some things and gains other things.  

Example - here's a fine painting of a Roman soldier astride his horse, leading an army of Aztec warriors armed with wide daggers made of obsidian, and bearing banners signifying which house of Israel from which the folks are descended.

Of course, there aren't any horses mentioned in the BoM, or obsidian, or black straight-haired hawk-nosed features.  The banners come straight out of Cecil B. Demille's The Ten Commandments, because the artist was the same guy who did some set and prop design for that movie.  Dude loved himself some big muscles.

And does anyone remember when we had this art hanging in our ward buildings?

I always liked that painting.  I mean, the original painting, which used to hang a decade earlier, until people started recognizing themselves on Christ's left, and got all mad:

 

Around 10 years ago, the church (at least in the US), directed all their facilities managers to remove all the art, except a short list of approved Christ-centered art, and pictures of the current first presidency.  I totally get why they did it, and support the decision, but I'm still sad we'll never see the various artistic interpretations of things any more.   I gotta go to churches in Korea to see cool stuff like this:

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I can dig that.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

14 hours ago, mirkwood said:

They are venomous because in their hearts they know they are wrong and should be following the heartland model.

You are probably correct. 👍