Birth Control...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+May 3 2004, 12:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 3 2004, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--juliejalago@May 2 2004, 12:31 AM

Ok, I am not sure if you are joking or not.     B)

Are you saying that you don't believe we are still commanded to multiply and replenish the earth?  If you think the world is already overpopulated, zero population growth still wouldn't solve the problems of unequal distribution of resources.  I'm not even going to say more because I can't decide how serious you are, being a bishop's wife and all.

Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, not us. Even if Adam and Eve represent all of us, the earth is replenished already! If every person has one child, they have multiplied themselves and thus, complied with the commandment. Yes, it is much more complicated than that. I have a hard time understanding though why any intelligent person would allow their personal decision about reproduction be dictated by something a former prophet said. It used to be that if you hoped to raise five children, you'd better have ten because so many children died in childhood. It's a much different world now.

Good points Curvette.

It also cost so much more and there is so much more expected from the parents today than just a few decades ago.

For my kids...the teachers says read with each one 20 minutes a night....then help them with homework. Well when I had 6 kids in school the demands were impossible!

I nearly lost my mind....or maybe I did and have been wondering around trying to find it...LOL

I wasn't the June Clever kind of mom that I wanted to be nor did I enjoy my kids....because I was always stressed out....then you have the church and the little ditties with scouting, primary talks, sunday school talks, memorizations, duties to fulfill their 'awards' requirements,.......parties, friends, .....dentist and doctor appts, dentist appts, shots, sickness, sleepless nights when they stay out too late, ....add to this the job, keeping house, shopping, (shopping for school ...now that is what I call pergatory)....

5 kids today is too many....and I had 7 and took care of my invalid mother for 10 years to-boot!....nobody can tell me to run faster than I am able....(though they did for several years before I wised up...)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 2 2004, 09:06 AM

You judge to quickly and harshly....

Some weren't able to have more. Some of their wives had physical problems which threatened their lives.

Some, had multiple miscarriages....

Some had their husbands away so much they were too tired!!!

So you think it is just self-control that makes present general authorities have smaller families than they used to? I don't buy that their wives have more physical problems than in the past, or more miscarriages, or their husbands are away more.

Sound pretty naive to me----wake up---GA's use birth control---it's pretty obvious.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+May 3 2004, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ May 3 2004, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 2 2004, 09:06 AM

You judge to quickly and harshly....

Some weren't able to have more. Some of their wives had physical problems which threatened their lives.

Some, had multiple miscarriages....

Some had their husbands away so much they were too tired!!!

So you think it is just self-control that makes present general authorities have smaller families than they used to? I don't buy that their wives have more physical problems than in the past, or more miscarriages, or their husbands are away more.

Sound pretty naive to me----wake up---GA's use birth control---it's pretty obvious.

You seem to know a lot, but I have to doubt you really do. I grew up in SLC and went to parties with all the GAs kids and socialized with the GAs regularly until just recently.

So blow all you want about what you think you know...but don't call it fact.

[juliejalago]

Originally posted by curvette+May 3 2004, 01:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 3 2004, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--juliejalago@May 2 2004, 12:31 AM

Ok, I am not sure if you are joking or not.    B)

Are you saying that you don't believe we are still commanded to multiply and replenish the earth?  If you think the world is already overpopulated, zero population growth still wouldn't solve the problems of unequal distribution of resources.  I'm not even going to say more because I can't decide how serious you are, being a bishop's wife and all.

Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, not us. Even if Adam and Eve represent all of us, the earth is replenished already! If every person has one child, they have multiplied themselves and thus, complied with the commandment. Yes, it is much more complicated than that. I have a hard time understanding though why any intelligent person would allow their personal decision about reproduction be dictated by something a former prophet said. It used to be that if you hoped to raise five children, you'd better have ten because so many children died in childhood. It's a much different world now.

Yes, Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. But if you have been sealed to your spouse in the temple, then you should also be very aware that this commandment was extended to you as well, and you covenanted to obey it. We are partners with God in providing bodies for our spirit brothers and sisters yet to come to this earth. It is a basic part of the Plan of Salvation. Who are you to declare that God has sent all the spirits to this Earth that he should? I do agree that the command to multiply and replenish did not specify numbers, although I personally would disagree that limiting yourself to one child fulfills this requirement, because one is not even enough to replace yourselves. The Proclamation to the World on the Family, (issued from our current First Presidency, and which I consider to be inspired) also makes clear that the command in Genesis applies to us. It states:

<span style='color:purple'>"The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force.

I am aghast that you are a bishop's wife and yet seem ignorant of this command. Maybe you are not really who you portray yourself to be, and I have just been naive to believe it. But if indeed your spouse is a bishop (in Idaho, no less) then I hope he does not agree with you, because if he shares your viewpoint then here is a perfect example of why I should not trust any advice on this matter from a bishop!

[Maureen]

Originally posted by juliejalago@May 3 2004, 11:10 PM

Who are you to declare that God has sent all the spirits to this Earth that he should?

I don't believe curvette has declared any such thing. Are you declaring that you know how many more spirits God is going to send? - if God does indeed send spirits to Earth.

M.

[Guest curvette]

In your original post, you wrote:

<<So what are your opinions about all this? >>

These are my opinions. My knowledge of the gospel, doctrines, and dogmas (between which I firmly differentiate) is solid. My husband adores me, but disagrees with many of my opinions. We were missionaries together once upon a time, and have engaged in many debates over gospel topics over many years. We are supportive of each other, but differ substantially in our views of many religious topics.

<<here is a perfect example of why I should not trust any advice on this matter from a bishop! >

Amen to that sister! Even if you wanted advice from your Bishop on this matter, you would most likely be referred to your Home Teachers because the church is quickly moving to a more hierarchal approach to handle personal problems and advice issues within the wards.

[Faerie]

AGAIN...it comes down to you, your husband, and the Lord...it's not THAT complicated of a matter..YOU will know when the time is right and even if you THINK the time is right, the Lord will definitely let you know when it's time...We THOUGHT that we were gun-ho ready for kids 2 years ago....well...the Lord had different plans and here I am just over 2 years later in the "trying to get pregnant" arena and I'm finally pregnant....

and yes, the "multiply and replenish the earth" commandment did not apply JUST to A&E...it applies to all of God's children, but it's also on our shoulders to make the decision of how many is enough/too much...

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Faerie@May 4 2004, 03:33 PM

I'm finally pregnant....

Congratulations! (Are you feeling okay?)

[Guest bizabra]

(post deleted by Biz)

[juliejalago]

Originally posted by curvette@May 4 2004, 12:53 PM

In your original post, you wrote:

<<So what are your opinions about all this? >>

These are my opinions. My knowledge of the gospel, doctrines, and dogmas (between which I firmly differentiate) is solid. My husband adores me, but disagrees with many of my opinions. We were missionaries together once upon a time, and have engaged in many debates over gospel topics over many years. We are supportive of each other, but differ substantially in our views of many religious topics.

You are right; your opinions were expressed at my invitation. And although I think I disagree with you, I am glad you shared your thoughts. I want to test my beliefs and entertain other viewpoints, to learn where I firmly stand versus where I need to evolve. I apologize for any comments I made that might discourage someone from responding honestly.

[lurker]

From the new True to the Faith manual, released by the church:

When married couples are physically able, they have the privilege of providing mortal bodies for Heavenly Father’s spirit children. They play a part in the great plan of happiness, which permits God’s children to receive physical bodies and experience mortality.

If you are married, you and your spouse should discuss your sacred responsibility to bring children into the world and nurture them in righteousness. As you do so, consider the sanctity and meaning of life. Ponder the joy that comes when children are in the home. Consider the eternal blessings that come from having a good posterity. With a testimony of these principles, you and your spouse will be prepared to prayerfully decide how many children to have and when to have them. Such decisions are between the two of you and the Lord.

As you discuss this sacred matter, remember that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved. While one purpose of these relations is to provide physical bodies for God’s children, another purpose is to express love for one another—to bind husband and wife together in loyalty, fidelity, consideration, and common purpose.

[Guest curvette]

What is the True to the Faith manual?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette@May 4 2004, 11:53 AM

We were missionaries together once upon a time, and have engaged in many debates over gospel topics over many years.

Where did you serve your missions? :)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by curvette@May 4 2004, 08:32 PM

What is the True to the Faith manual?

This is what it says at lds.org:

Message from the First Presidency

36863, True to the Faith, 1

This book is designed as a companion to your study of the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets. We encourage you to refer to it as you study and apply gospel principles. Use it as a resource when you prepare talks, teach classes, and answer questions about the Church.

As you learn gospel truths, you will increase in your understanding of Heavenly Father’s eternal plan. With this understanding as a foundation for your life, you will be able to make wise choices, live in harmony with God’s will, and find joy in living. Your testimony will grow stronger. You will remain true to the faith.

We are especially mindful of youth, young single adults, and new converts. We promise you that through regular personal prayer and study of the scriptures and the doctrines of the gospel you will be prepared to withstand evil influences that would deceive you and harm you.

May this book strengthen you in your efforts to draw near to the Savior and follow His example.

The First Presidency

M.

[Tr2]

So what are your opinions about all this? It is obvious that most LDS practice birth control to some extent. Are we all going to hell for it, as some leaders in the past have suggested? Or does doctrine change? Are current leaders silent or wishywashy because we are too hardened as a people to handle the truth?

My opinion is that many of your prophets/presidents have tried to control you. This is one of the petty things that lead me to believe that. Whether you use birth control is not the business, nor the decision, of your church leaders. Anybody who would demand such a thing from you has violated your boundaries because this is not their business.

Personally, my wife and I use birth control because we are just not ready to handle another child yet. I work shifts and she is with our son much of the time. My church leaders do not have the sleepless nights like we have, nor have to do the worrying. I could not give another child the attention that they would need.

I think your church leaders are more concerned with gaining more members than they are with your well-being. And I bet they'd condemn you if you did have more children and you weren't giving 10% of your money to them.

[Guest estump]

The Daily Universe (BYU)

February 12, 1996:5

Lauren Comstock quoting Hinckley's speech to students:

President Gordon B. Hinckley

"If you will nurture and build your homes on these four cornerstones [referencing the "Cornerstones" pamphlet quoted previously --Sean] you will have happiness, there will be food on your tables, clothes on your backs and shelter over your heads," he said.

"Build solid homes," he said. "I don't care about the size, I care about the spirit."

From the CHI off of Google

Birth Control

The _General Handbook of Instructions_ for Church leaders has the following instructions concerning birth control: "Husbands must be considerate of their wives, who have a great responsibility not only for bearing children but also for caring for them through childhood. . . . Married couples should seek inspiration from the Lord in meeting their marital challenges and rearing their children according to the teachings of the gospel" (_General Handbook,_ 11-4).

Interpretation of these general instructions is left to the agency of Church members. One of the basic teachings of the Church, however, is that spirit children of God come to earth to obtain a physical body, to grow, and to be tested. In that process, adults should marry and provide temporal bodies for those spirit children. For Latter-day Saints, it is a blessing, a joy, and also an obligation to bear children and to raise a family.

One of the cornerstones of the gospel is agency or choice. Latter-day Saints believe that everyone will be held responsible for the choices they make. Many decisions involve the application of principles where precise instructions are not given in the _General Handbook of Instructions_ or in the scriptures. The exercise of individual agency is therefore required, and Latter-day Saints believe that personal growth results from weighing the alternatives, studying matters carefully, counseling with appropriate Church leaders, and then seeking inspiration from the Lord before making a decision.

Church members are taught to study the question of family planning, including such important aspects as the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their capacity to provide the basic necessities of life. If, for personal reasons, a couple prayerfully decides that having another child immediately is unwise, birth control may be appropriate. Abstinence, of course, is a form of contraception. Like any other method, however, it has its side effects, some of which may be harmful to the marriage relationship.

Prophets past and present have never stipulated that bearing children was the sole function of the marriage relationship. They have taught that physical intimacy is a strong force in expressing and strengthening the love bond in marriage, enhancing and reinforcing marital unity.

Decisions regarding the number and spacing of children are to be made by husband and wife together, in righteousness, and through empathetic communication, and with prayer for the Lord's inspiration. Latter-day Saints believe that persons are accountable not only for what they do but for why they do it. Thus, regarding family size and attendant questions, members should desire to multiply and replenish the earth as the Lord has commanded. In that process, God intends that his children use the agency that he has given them in charting a wise course for themselves and their families.

EStump writes:

This is why I say this is the 'truest' church right now. True is finite and would not allow for age-old thinking to be replaced. Julie for centuries upon centuries women were thought of as NOTHING MORE than baby-factories. Do you seriously think that centuries of thinking was going to change, even w/ the enlightenment of the complete gospel? People take YEARS to change and years to listen to what Father's truest intentions are.

What you have to learn to decipher is opinion from prophecy. Not everything that flies out of a prophet's mouth is going to be orchestrated from God. There are some things I do believe come from God...just as several talks this past conference I felt came as prophetic heeding and warnings.

And to your question about why we need prophets...I think this link (though dealing w/ Mohammad) gives a clear concise reason as to the needing of men and/or women more directly linked to God, than most people are. (side note: most people could be if they took the time to nurture that relationship....most people don't though...I for one am trying and have a LONG way to go lucy!)

http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/11.html

[Guest curvette]

I really like President Hinkley's thoughts on this issue. It doesn't do any good to mindlessly populate the earth with children to the point that the parents don't have time to teach them properly. We should focus more on the quality of the children we raise than the quantity of them.

[juliejalago]

estump: "Build solid homes," he said. "I don't care about the size, I care about the spirit."

me: Are you sure he wasn't referring to the square footage and design of our houses? Thank you for posting that quote from President Hinckley. I had read it somewhere before, but I didn't have a reference or source to quote it here. It is comforting to know our current prophet trusts us to make these decisions.

estump: And to your question about why we need prophets...I think this link (though dealing w/ Mohammad) gives a clear concise reason as to the needing of men and/or women more directly linked to God, than most people are.

me: Thank you for the link. One point made in the link has been among my concerns all along. And that is...how do I know if I am deceiving myself with reason and rationalization? Can I trust myself to make the right decisions? Here is the "need" quote I am referring to:

2. THERE IS A NEED FOR AN INCONTROVERTIBLE AUTHORITY

People differ in education, abilities, feelings and backgrounds; so they differ in their views. Many important issues concerning man's actions are highly controversial among individuals and groups. Ethics and morals are strongly disputed. Philosophic justifications can be found for almost any viewpoint. Rather than clarifying the issues so that one finds it possible to make a rational choice, the rational philosophies amplify the confusion. Reason and philosophy have failed as a solution for ethical and moral questions. The answers we seek must come from an incontrovertible authority to which individuals and groups should submit. That authority is God.

me: This is why I seek confirmation of my opinions through the words of prophets. And when prophets differ in their counsel, then this becomes more difficult. But maybe it can be a good thing because it leads me to think harder and deeper than I otherwise would!

estump: What you have to learn to decipher is opinion from prophecy. Not everything that flies out of a prophet's mouth is going to be orchestrated from God.

me: You hit the nail on the head. But this is not easy to discern. Once in a while you get a prophet or leader who prefaces his statements with, "It is my opinion that..." or "It is my personal belief that...". But the quotes I have the most difficulty with have been official statements pronounced as Church policy.

estump: Julie for centuries upon centuries women were thought of as NOTHING MORE than baby-factories. Do you seriously think that centuries of thinking was going to change, even w/ the enlightenment of the complete gospel? People take YEARS to change and years to listen to what Father's truest intentions are.

me: I don't know why a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator couldn't overcome obstacles to truth such as the unenlightened age in which he was raised, but maybe it wasn't important for that time to evolve in their thinking just yet. I can see why people as a whole would revile against birth control when it was a new concept. People instinctively rebel against anything new, without thinking it through first. And the thought of controlling one's fertility was probably a mindblower. A generation or more of LDS have used birth control now and yet still maintain the importance of families, choosing to raise children in the Church with moral values -- evidence that perhaps we can be trusted to make these decisions after all.

Thank you for your insights.

[Faerie]

IMHO...it's not on my shoulders, or your shoulders to bring "as many as possible" spirits into this world..we are to bring what we feel is best...if that makes sense...i'm nauseated beyond reason and about to crash...

trust me..we used to say "yeah we'll be one of those families w/ 8 kids and pop out a few twins on the way" and now i'm pondering how i'm gonna make it through the first one!!! lol...

and i don't think there's one thing wrong w/ the church having a stance on birth control, one way or another...tr2, religion is all about telling man what you should and shouldn't do w/ your life...get over it... we're told to eat healthy, don't drink, don't smoke, etc..etc...etc...a prophet saying "don't put money and extravagence ahead of having your children" is no worse....

[juliejalago]

Originally posted by curvette@May 5 2004, 02:57 PM

I really like President Hinkley's thoughts on this issue.  It doesn't do any good to mindlessly populate the earth with children to the point that the parents don't have time to teach them properly.  We should focus more on the quality of the children we raise than the quantity of them.

I agree. I am confident we will be held accountable to God for the care and manner in which we raise our children. Common sense should dictate which is better: to raise lots of children who receive little guidance and make poor choices that negatively affect future generations, or to raise fewer children who are well-trained and who grow up to become successful parents themselves.

Of course, we should keep in mind that while no parent is perfect, there are a lot of horrible people out in the world that could do a worse botch-up job of raising one child than a righteous but slightly overextended mom might do with one or two more children than is comfortable. Nevertheless, we can't save every child from being born into evil, and the best approach would seem to be found in Mosiah 4:27.

<span style='color:red'>"And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order."

Maybe we aren't so far apart on this issue as I first suspected, because I would agree that "birth control is our friend" when applied in this sense.

[juliejalago]

BTW, thanks to "lurker" and Maureen for sharing the True to the Faith source. I was not aware of its existence. It makes it fairly clear what the current Church policy is, (although it does not address the former, harsher statements that are still printed in other sources, such as in the Achieving a Celestial Marriage student manual).

[juliejalago]

Originally posted by Faerie@May 5 2004, 08:57 PM

IMHO...it's not on my shoulders, or your shoulders to bring "as many as possible" spirits into this world..we are to bring what we feel is best...if that makes sense...i'm nauseated beyond reason and about to crash...

trust me..we used to say "yeah we'll be one of those families w/ 8 kids and pop out a few twins on the way" and now i'm pondering how i'm gonna make it through the first one!!! lol...

There's nothing like all-day "morning" sickness to make one rethink her future pregnancy plans, lol. Just wait 'til how you feel during labor. You might be one of those women who are screaming at their husband, "What did you DO to me! This is all YOUR fault. STAY AWAY FROM ME!" in between contractions. That's why epidurals are also our friends. :) But seriously, I hope your stomach feels better soon!

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by juliejalago@May 5 2004, 08:27 PM

There's nothing like all-day "morning" sickness to make one rethink her future pregnancy plans, lol. Just wait 'til how you feel during labor. You might be one of those women who are screaming at their husband, "What did you DO to me! This is all YOUR fault. STAY AWAY FROM ME!" in between contractions. That's why epidurals are also our friends. :) But seriously, I hope your stomach feels better soon!

I was in labor both pregnancies and had no clue. The 2nd time my doc said he came into the room, saw the monitor and saw how strong my contractions were and how fast they were coming, but he saw me sitting on the table smiling and figured everything was ok. An hour later my daughter was born :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by juliejalago+May 5 2004, 08:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (juliejalago @ May 5 2004, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@May 5 2004, 08:57 PM

IMHO...it's not on my shoulders, or your shoulders to bring "as many as possible" spirits into this world..we are to bring what we feel is best...if that makes sense...i'm nauseated beyond reason and about to crash...

trust me..we used to say "yeah we'll be one of those families w/ 8 kids and pop out a few twins on the way" and now i'm pondering how i'm gonna make it through the first one!!! lol...

There's nothing like all-day "morning" sickness to make one rethink her future pregnancy plans, lol. Just wait 'til how you feel during labor. You might be one of those women who are screaming at their husband, "What did you DO to me! This is all YOUR fault. STAY AWAY FROM ME!" in between contractions. That's why epidurals are also our friends. :) But seriously, I hope your stomach feels better soon!

With my older daughter, my water broke at 8am on Saturday morning, but I did not go into labor. At 2pm I went to the hospital and they wouldn't let me go home, but they decided to wait till the next morning to induce me if nothing had started by then. (All this time I was having Braxton-Hicks contractions, but no labor.) At 10am the next morning, the took me back to L&D and started inducing me. Except for that, I went all natural, no epidurals. At 12:26am Monday morning, my daughter was born.

After being awake for almost 48 hours, 40 hours of contractions of one form or another, as soon as my daughter was born I looked at my husband and said "Can we have another?" LOL.

[srm]

Originally posted by juliejalago+May 1 2004, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (juliejalago @ May 1 2004, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Apr 30 2004, 11:35 PM

What is your current status in the church?  a member?  active, inactive? a believer?  a non-believer? an 'anti'?

I'm not sure why that is pertinent information. Must I have a label in order for you to share your opinion? But in order to assure you that my motive is only to increase my understanding of truth, my status is (and always has been) an active member of the Church, who is trying to resolve inconsistencies in my belief system. I hope to strengthen my testimony by facing doubts and concerns head on, rather than being afraid to investigate truths.

This is pertinent information because I'm wary when I read a post that starts out, "I am a 7th generation Mormon who grew up actively attending my church meetings. " This is so often the beginning line of an anti-mormon diatribe.