Alma 41:10

[popatr]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

If they are "EXACTLY" the same thing, then why only telestial?  The souls "in prison" include all those who did not hear the word in this life, but hear it in the Spirit World.  And those who accept the vicarious ordinances for them are raised to the Celestial.

Your take says that otherwise celestial souls will have to be in Outer Darkness for thousands of years simply because they were unable to hear the word in this life. 

I think, of necessity (reconciling all known scriptures about the state of soul between death and resurrection), we must conclude that spirit prison is divided into better and worse spheres.  I do not believe for one moment that terrestrial and celestial spirit spend any time in outer darkness.  Indeed they cannot, since they have some light.

[Carborendum]

23 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If anyone here knows a GA, please double-dog dare them to use the phrase "quit dorking around" in their next General Conference sermon.  

It might not be the sermon we want; but it'll be the sermon we need.  

 

[Carborendum]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:01 PM, popatr said:

we must conclude that spirit prison is divided into better and worse spheres.  I do not believe for one moment that terrestrial and celestial spirit spend any time in outer darkness.  Indeed they cannot, since they have some light.

So, spirit prison does NOT equal Outer Darkness.  Remember that even telestials have some light.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Carborendum

[Just_A_Guy]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:11 PM, Vort said:

Hmmmm...

Methinks that someone isn't aware of the etymology of the word...

Great.  Dare I Google it?

[Vort]

8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Great.  Dare I Google it?

I double dog dare you.

[popatr]

16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, spirit prison does NOT equal Outer Darkness.  Remember that even telestials have some light.

 

I am fine conceding that Spirit prison and outer darkness are not the same concept. 

Moving forward is a semantic game, which is kind of a pointless game.  Still, here's another attempt to word it:  telestial people get spirit prison plus outer darkness, while terrestrial people get spirit prison minus outer darkness. 

America and Death valley are not the same concept, yet someone could be in America and Death valley OR could be in America and the redwoods;. And though both people are in America, they are having very different experiences.

Anyway, I think the scriptures support my conclusions, but if you have a scriptural  rebuttal I am interested in hearing it.

I think that telestial people really don't have any light.  Remember I said before that they are not really living a telestial law at the time of their death.

I said I believed that self-interest motivated them. Shortsighted self-interest is completely lightless.  But self-interest taught long-sightedness or wisdom by time in hell, gains the faintest spark of light, like a dim star.  So they get out of outer darkness.

 

 

 

 

 

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, popatr said:

Anyway, I think the scriptures support my conclusions, but if you have a scriptural  rebuttal I am interested in hearing it.

D&C 76

You need a refresher.

[popatr]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

D&C 76

You need a refresher

DC76 says what I've been saying, that telestial people reside in hell and are not delivered from the devil until the last resurrection.  I'm not sure what you think my point is, or where the disagreement lies.

Please expound.

Edited September 4, 2022 by popatr

[Carborendum]

On 9/4/2022 at 12:23 PM, popatr said:

I think that telestial people really don't have any light.

You sure about that?

Quote

These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

 -- D&C 76:83

And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

  -- D&C 88:24

These guys have no light?

On 9/4/2022 at 12:23 PM, popatr said:

... they are not really living a telestial law at the time of their death.

?

Quote

...for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

  -- Alma 34:34

Edited September 5, 2022 by Carborendum

[popatr]

22 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You sure about that?

These guys have no light?

?

Here's how the "Doctrine and Covenants commentary puts it:

Quote

84. Thrust down to hell] Those who partake of the telestial kingdom are the unclean inhabitants of the earth; those who have defiled themselves with immoral practices, the liars, sorcerers, thieves, blasphemers, and all who have loved wickedness. Because of their evil practices they bring down upon themselves the wrath of God. These are turned over to Satan and become subject to his rule and suffer his buffetings until the day of the earth, or their redemption which is the resurrection which will not come until the end of the earth, or the "fulness of times," or when our Savior has finished his work; then they shall be brought forth after they have paid the "uttermost farthing," and have learned by the things they have suffered that "crime does not pay."
...
Can anybody who has been thrust down to hell] be an "heir of salvation?" Yes. (v. 88.) Hell must deliver up its dead (Rev. 20:13) and they are to be judged according to their works. The Lord calls this a kingdom of glory, and therefore it is a kingdom of salvation as they are freed from the devil and his angels in the final resurrection. Salvation is condition of degree. 

Their time in hell helps take them from a condition where they are not able to live in a kingdom of glory, to one where they have "learned" enough that they can do so.

Or as I would say it, a state of "no light" to a state of "a little light".  I don't want to belabor this point though, or feel too attached to it.  I am satisfied that they are in hell, possibly even outer darkness indeed, until the Lord rescues them.  That is the key point anyway.

[mikbone]

We don’t really believe in a location of hell.

We recognize that spirit prison is what many other religions refer to as hell.  It is temporary.

The Telestial Kingdom is a state of Glory.

Outer Darkness is a state that other religions likely do not appreciate.  No Glory.  We don’t know what it is like there.  But definitely no light or influence from God.

[Carborendum]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:50 AM, popatr said:

Here's how the "Doctrine and Covenants commentary puts it:

I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.  Could you elucidate?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Carborendum

[popatr]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.  Could you elucidate?

My calling telestial people "lightless" was bothering you.  Again I don't want to belabor whether they are actually lightless or not, at the time of their death.  The ground that I'm more interested in defending is that: at the time of their death, I think they are not actually fit for the telestial kingdom.  My belief is that their time suffering in hell is actually key to making them fit to live in the telestial kingdom.  because as the commentary says, they learn that "crime does not pay".

This statement seems compatible with my belief that telestial people can behave themselves in service of their own self-interest, if it has been wisened (or made long-sighted).

I want to also recall another thing I said before: which is that I am convinced that God does not harm needlessly.  I'm sure that time in hell is for their benefit.  Nephi agrees.  God does not do anything which is not for our benefit, (even if that thing is "casting into hell").

Quote

2Ne26

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

 

[Carborendum]

56 minutes ago, popatr said:

• My calling telestial people "lightless" was bothering you.  Again I don't want to belabor whether they are actually lightless or not, at the time of their death. 
• The ground that I'm more interested in defending is that: at the time of their death, I think they are not actually fit for the telestial kingdom.  My belief is that their time suffering in hell is actually key to making them fit to live in the telestial kingdom.

This clarifies things a bit, in that you separated the two points here.  

Yes, that they were "lightless" was one sticking point.  Lightless ONLY refers to sons of perdition.  And they will be sons of perdition regardless of casting into hell or not.  They will NEVER learn that crime doesn't pay.  They simply don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes regardless of any "punishment" for lack of a better word.

As far as whether they are "fit for" the telestial kingdom... I'm of two minds on that.

• As I quoted earlier about our spirits when we depart this life.
• None of us are truly fit for the Celestial until we've been purified by the Atonement of Christ.  So, why not for the other kingdoms as well?

So, I don't really have a final answer on that.

[popatr]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This clarifies things a bit, in that you separated the two points here.  

Yes, that they were "lightless" was one sticking point.  Lightless ONLY refers to sons of perdition.  And they will be sons of perdition regardless of casting into hell or not.  They will NEVER learn that crime doesn't pay.  They simply don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes regardless of any "punishment" for lack of a better word.

As far as whether they are "fit for" the telestial kingdom... I'm of two minds on that.

• As I quoted earlier about our spirits when we depart this life.
• None of us are truly fit for the Celestial until we've been purified by the Atonement of Christ.  So, why not for the other kingdoms as well?

So, I don't really have a final answer on that.

I agree, none of us is fully fit for the kingdom we eventually inherit, on our own.  No matter which kingdom we inherit, the atonement of Christ has unlocked it.  The scriptures make clear that without the atonement we would ALL be in outer darkness.

Quote

2Ne9

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

The atonement, in addition to unlocking the way, allows us to avoid the suffering which accompanies our sins, "if they would repent ... but if not they must suffer even as [christ]"

One thing about the Telestial people is their apparent extreme reluctance to accept the atonement and to accept christ.  DC76:82 "These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus... [but] .... deny not the Holy Spirit."  The doctrine and covenants commentary on this verse states that this rejection of Christ is not only in this world, but in the spirit world also.

Contrast this with the description of Terrestrial people: DC76:74 "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it."  In other words, their minds are not so darkened that a stubborn rejection of christ continues after life.

I believe the telestial person, having been unwilling to accept the gift of Jesus which would have saved them from their suffering, suffers greatly until the final resurrection "even as [Jesus]".  This suffering is somewhat redemptive.  Not in the sense that the atonement is, but in the sense that it carried them to the place where they could finally accept the gift.  (It is key to remember that no matter how important their suffering is in their eventual redemption, Christs atonement is the actual enabler.  Without it they are damned)

The terrestrial person and celestial person receives the gift gladly.

Now I suppose that the Telestial person must eventually be willing to receive the gift.  The person in outer darkness refuses to submit to any being or law but themselves, so much so that they crucify jesus afresh when given the chance to escape.  The telestial person is almost as unwilling to submit to another being or law as the son of perdition... but not quite.  In the end they do not crucify Jesus afresh but say: I accept (and they mean it because they really see that sin is not in their self interest)  This is what I suppose.

I feel the reluctance to submit myself to christ but to some extent I have done so.  I feel like I live the gospel very much because I feel it is in my self-interest.  I worry that I am not celestial.  I guess we will see.

I believe that the telestial person is actually in outer darkness during their suffering.  They desperately want nothing to do with Christ, so much so that even after they are saved, they NEVER receive the presence of the son into their kingdom.  I suppose they cannot bear it.  They can bear the holy ghost, and ministrations from terrestrial beings, but not the presence of the son.

Edited September 8, 2022 by popatr