Satan's second cursing?


laronius
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Following the tempting of Adam and Eve in the garden, God curses Satan:

Moses 4:20 Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In the temple Satan actually gives a response, which our scriptures are silent on. What Satan says isn't really what I'm getting after here, but rather the fact that he was not happy at all with this cursing.

My question is, if Satan is already a son of perdition, perhaps perdition itself, what more can really happen to him? Why get upset? Had he not already fallen as low as he can get? 

............................

In writing this I really didn't have any idea as to the answer to this question, but a thought just came to mind that I will share later.

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Thoughts:

1). A venomous snake rears up before it strikes.  A snake condemned to live life on its belly is not going to be a mortal threat to watchful humans.  (Ancient Egyptian cursing texts include similar cursing to serpents—that they shall go on their bellies—and this is generally what is understood as being their meaning.  See, eg, the relevant footnotes to Genesis 3 in the Zondervan Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, NSRV edition.)

2). It is dangerous to assume, even in a scriptural or liturgical context, that Satan means what he says.  Satan’s role and statements, in the temple garden narrative, may be thought of as pageantry; calculated to convince Adam and Eve that God just isn’t being fair and that their loyalty to Him is misplaced.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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2 hours ago, laronius said:

My question is, if Satan is already a son of perdition, perhaps perdition itself, what more can really happen to him? Why get upset? Had he not already fallen as low as he can get? 

Were you under the impression that Satan is a rational being?

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13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Were you under the impression that Satan is a rational being?

"Rational" in the sense of being able to reason? Sure. "Rational" in the sense of using reason and logic to accomplish his goals? Certainly. "Rational" in the sense of making choices for the best possible outcome? Nope, but that's because our definition of "best" is "eternal life", something in which Satan has no apparent interest. Which might or might not demonstrate the applicability of your answer. (I think it does.)

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The scriptures tell us Satan wanted to take God's glory and honor.... 

When he failed that his next desire per scriptures is to make us miserable like he is..

This 'second curse' denies him that.   He can not make anyone miserable like he is.  He can temp sure...  But Christ is going to redeem all but the Son's of Perdition.  (aka those that with full light and knowledge choose to reject Christ).   He is not going to be able to 'drag' any one of us down with him..  The best he can hope for delay and distract us.  Those that he does 'get' aren't going to be because of him.... but rather because of their own choosing.

I have no problem with him being quiet upset by that little revelation

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28 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Rational" in the sense of being able to reason? Sure. "Rational" in the sense of using reason and logic to accomplish his goals? Certainly. "Rational" in the sense of making choices for the best possible outcome? Nope, but that's because our definition of "best" is "eternal life", something in which Satan has no apparent interest. Which might or might not demonstrate the applicability of your answer. (I think it does.)

Thanks for stepping all over my attempt at being funny.  🤣

Edit: Maybe my joke would have played better if I'd stated it thusly: Were you under the impression that Satan was a calm, peaceful, and happy being?

My point is that Satan seems driven by emotion, rather than logic and reason, not that he has no ability to be logical. It strikes me as a bit of a funny thing to ask, "Why would Satan be angry (upset) at [any given thing]?" Isn't Satan, sort of, upset incarnate?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Satan’s role and statements, in the temple garden narrative, may be thought of as pageantry; calculated to convince Adam and Eve that God just isn’t being fair and that their loyalty to Him is misplaced.

I think this idea is incredibly insightful and accurate to the true motive of Satan.  I'm convinced this is the strategy he employed during the War in Heaven taking with him a third of our brothers and sisters. 

It can seem convincing people that good is evil and evil is good seems like too simple of a ploy to gain any traction. But we've seen throughout history and the world today how incredibly effective and sinister it can be.

People get lost asking themselves why would a good God subject His children to so much pain and suffering. Maybe Lucifer was right along? 

Satan is a liar and has been since this world was created. Back when he was a morning star, I imagine he advanced considerably in his understanding of things, perhaps great enough to consider himself an equal or even better than God. 

This is the same battle of pride and ego we are all up against in one way or another. Satan capitalizes on this as much as possible.  

This is the true fight we are all up against. This is why God had to design this life to be lived by faith so we could prove to Him and ourselves that we would choose good over evil, humility over ego, and order over chaos.

If we ever get lost, we can ponder what kind of force would give us the directive to progress and love one another. Satan is only concerned with his glory. He actively seeks our destruction and attempts to thwart our progression. He is just as real as God is. All we need to do is slow down and ponder God's teachings if we ever get lost.

Edited by clbent04
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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Thoughts:

1). A venomous snake rears up before it strikes.  A snake condemned to live life on its belly is not going to be a mortal threat to watchful humans.  (Ancient Egyptian cursing texts include similar cursing to serpents—that they shall go on their bellies—and this is generally what is understood as being their meaning.  See, eg, the relevant footnotes to Genesis 3 in the Zondervan Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, NSRV edition.)

2). It is dangerous to assume, even in a scriptural or liturgical context, that Satan means what he says.  Satan’s role and statements, in the temple garden narrative, may be thought of as pageantry; calculated to convince Adam and Eve that God just isn’t being fair and that their loyalty to Him is misplaced.

I think you make two valid points. I have playfully wondered if snakes had legs before this event took. But your point about a snakes ability to strike makes sense.

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13 hours ago, estradling75 said:

The scriptures tell us Satan wanted to take God's glory and honor.... 

When he failed that his next desire per scriptures is to make us miserable like he is..

This 'second curse' denies him that.   He can not make anyone miserable like he is.  He can temp sure...  But Christ is going to redeem all but the Son's of Perdition.  (aka those that with full light and knowledge choose to reject Christ).   He is not going to be able to 'drag' any one of us down with him..  The best he can hope for delay and distract us.  Those that he does 'get' aren't going to be because of him.... but rather because of their own choosing.

I have no problem with him being quiet upset by that little revelation

This was the closest to the thought that I had while writing the OP though many of the responses actually tie into it and it has to do with this verse:

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

I think it was in this interaction with God that Satan finally realizes that he just got played for the fool. That his tempting Eve brought about the very conditions that allowed for a Savior to exalt God's children. So yes, tantrum insued. As for the cursing, I have two trains thought.

First, maybe it wasn't so much a cursing as God simply pointing out that Satan had just shot himself in the foot and lost the war before it ever began. "Because you did this, here's the effect..." 

Second, perhaps is it possible that until there was a Savior there could not be a Satan? There must be opposition in all things, right? So while Lucifer had already fallen and been cast out and while Jehovah had already agreed to be the Redeemer of the world, both roles ultimately hinged on this event. So if there's any merit to this supposition, maybe Satan's "fall" was not complete until he helped bring about the fall of man. 

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On 9/6/2022 at 9:56 AM, laronius said:

Following the tempting of Adam and Eve in the garden, God curses Satan:

Moses 4:20 Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In the temple Satan actually gives a response, which our scriptures are silent on. What Satan says isn't really what I'm getting after here, but rather the fact that he was not happy at all with this cursing.

My question is, if Satan is already a son of perdition, perhaps perdition itself, what more can really happen to him? Why get upset? Had he not already fallen as low as he can get? 

............................

In writing this I really didn't have any idea as to the answer to this question, but a thought just came to mind that I will share later.

The temple presentation is a drama, providing broad strokes to train our hearts, minds, thoughts and feelings for covenant-keeping and not to portrays factual events in every detail. Of course as time goes on, Satan asserts his rebellion and acts badly on just about any interaction imaginable.

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17 hours ago, laronius said:

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.I

If you want to engage in some fun speculation, consider this:

in the fifth lecture of the Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith/Sidney Rigdon identify the “mind of God” as the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is drawing inference upon inference and could well be faulty from its inception*; but I’ll float it anyways:

Why didn’t Lucifer know the Holy Spirit?

 

 

 

*I believe this incomplete view of the Godhead is one of the main reasons the LoF were decanonized.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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My question is, if Satan is already a son of perdition, perhaps perdition itself, what more can really happen to him? Why get upset? Had he not already fallen as low as he can get? 

Here is a modern day analogy/example. We have brothers/sisters, due to their individual choice, who are sentenced to "life" in prison. This is an "eternal" (as to human life) sentence with no hope for parole; however, even within this life sentence there is still "agency." Even if the agency is captivated -- so to speak.

If you have ever worked with someone in such circumstance, I understand when they seek to exercise their agency (in what they feel is right for them), and that agency is chastened/reprimanded they will often throw a fit -- gnash their teeth.

Although, they have received such a sentence they still get angry when anything "removes" any other form of "agency" they have. Satan, although a son of perdition, still had some form of power. He abused that power, so to speak, and was further punished. What he still had was reduced.

Another idea, when people do not feel they are "wrong" they will get angry at anything that tells them they were -- well -- wrong.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 9/6/2022 at 6:56 AM, laronius said:

if Satan is already a son of perdition, perhaps perdition itself

Somewhat off topic, but what do you see as the difference between the two? What does it mean to be a "son of perdition" or "perdition itself"?

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43 minutes ago, Vort said:

Somewhat off topic, but what do you see as the difference between the two? What does it mean to be a "son of perdition" or "perdition itself"?

The way I guess I intended it is that Satan is the ring-leader, the father of all lies. So those who follow him in a sense become his son's and daughters. But I guess it depends on how you define perdition. So your question made me check on it's actual definition. In addition to meaning eternal damnation, archaically it meant utter destruction, which to me is interesting when considering the ultimate fate of such souls. 

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If you want to engage in some fun speculation, consider this:

in the fifth lecture of the Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith/Sidney Rigdon identify the “mind of God” as the Holy Spirit.

Now, this is drawing inference upon inference and could well be faulty from its inception*; but I’ll float it anyways:

Why didn’t Lucifer know the Holy Spirit?

 

 

 

*I believe this incomplete view of the Godhead is one of the main reasons the LoF were decanonized.

Sounds like you are taking a literal interpretation on this, in which case I'm not sure what that might imply.

But it is curious that Lucifer would be so out of the know on what exactly God intended. Was the fall not a part of the original plan as presented in the grand council? Or maybe he was the original Judas Iscariot where Christ's suffering is alluded to but not fully explained, with God waiting for Lucifer to get the ball rolling? 

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7 hours ago, laronius said:

Sounds like you are taking a literal interpretation on this, in which case I'm not sure what that might imply.

But it is curious that Lucifer would be so out of the know on what exactly God intended. Was the fall not a part of the original plan as presented in the grand council? Or maybe he was the original Judas Iscariot where Christ's suffering is alluded to but not fully explained, with God waiting for Lucifer to get the ball rolling? 

One possibility, drawing on the following from Joseph Smith’s King Follett sermon:

God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

The possibility I float is this:  Satan, being an extraordinarily self-centered and power-hungry being, never dreamed that God would actually condescend to share the power and knowledge He had accrued with spirit children who were so obviously inferior to Himself.  (Yes, God presumably declared His intent to do so in the grand council; but Lucifer simply didn’t believe Him—hence, his rebellion.)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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