Transgression and children

[laronius]

Alma 12:22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

If it was true that there was absolutely no other way for Adam and Eve to have children other than to transgress God's commandment then how is it proper to state that the fall caused all mankind to "become" a list and fallen people? Yes, Adam and Eve were the original mankind but I'm pretty sure it's use in this verse is not limited to them. So, if "became" implies another possible state of being other than fallen then why does Eve specifically state that is was only through transgression that it was possible?

[Anddenex]

16 hours ago, laronius said:

Alma 12:22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

If it was true that there was absolutely no other way for Adam and Eve to have children other than to transgress God's commandment then how is it proper to state that the fall caused all mankind to "become" a list and fallen people? Yes, Adam and Eve were the original mankind but I'm pretty sure it's use in this verse is not limited to them. So, if "became" implies another possible state of being other than fallen then why does Eve specifically state that is was only through transgression that it was possible?

My first question, does Eve say "it was only through transgression"? I believe Eve says something a little different than "it was only through transgression..."

I believe our Lord's perfection implies another state, otherwise he also would have been "lost and fallen" due to being the son of someone that was fallen. We could argue his Father allowed for the other state, but can a fallen person produce anything else besides being "fallen" -- in this regard (this verse)?

I'm one that personally believes, transgression was not the only way to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of God's children.

[CV75]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:26 PM, laronius said:

Alma 12:22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

If it was true that there was absolutely no other way for Adam and Eve to have children other than to transgress God's commandment then how is it proper to state that the fall caused all mankind to "become" a list and fallen people? Yes, Adam and Eve were the original mankind but I'm pretty sure it's use in this verse is not limited to them. So, if "became" implies another possible state of being other than fallen then why does Eve specifically state that is was only through transgression that it was possible?

Lots of semantics are possible here. A couple of options:

In what way did all mankind become a lost and fallen people through Adam and Eve's transgression/fall? They were born into mortality (physical separation from God), and as they grew to accountability, their pre-mortal spiritual development being less than Christ (Abraham 3:19), became separated spiritually.

Moses 5:11 allows that the transgression was necessary (and inevitable): Adam and Eve could not resolve their dilemma (per Abraham 3:19: only Christ could reconcile the commandments through His Atoning work), yet their wisdom and spiritual capacity was greater than the devil's, enabling them to weigh the dilemma, make an imperfect choice, and repent.

Transgression also means change, as in changing or replacing the law required for one sphere into another and changing spheres accordingly: they replaced the law of paradise (not partaking of the fruit/immortality) with the telestial law (to multiply and replenish the earth/knowledge) so that a celestial law (eternal life and continuation of the seed) might be attained.

[JohnsonJones]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:26 PM, laronius said:

Alma 12:22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

If it was true that there was absolutely no other way for Adam and Eve to have children other than to transgress God's commandment then how is it proper to state that the fall caused all mankind to "become" a list and fallen people? Yes, Adam and Eve were the original mankind but I'm pretty sure it's use in this verse is not limited to them. So, if "became" implies another possible state of being other than fallen then why does Eve specifically state that is was only through transgression that it was possible?

 

There are several ways to interpret it, or several ways to see it.  It can also be seen figuratively (and applicable to ALL of us) and literally.

Taking it more figuratively, we see the consequences of choices.  These choices have led us from being immortal to mortal children of our Father.  This is a natural consequence of the choice that we have made.  It is only by taking on these mortal shells that we can join a family at birth, grow and mature (hopefully emotionally and mentally, as well as physically), marry, and have children of our own. 

If we view it in another sense, there were two conflicting laws given, or at least at the time.  WE could stay with our Father and remain in the state we were in, or we could decide to take on mortal bodies, but in doing so, as no one is perfect and each of us certainly would not be, we would be committing ourselves with the knowledge that we would sin in this life.  By default, we were choosing a path that would separate us from our father, and we were choosing it on purpose.  We do it with the hope of a Savior and a greater reward, but the truth is that we choose to come to this life and choose this path of sin.  It is only by the Savior and the way of Faith, Repentance, and Baptism that we can be saved from our own choice. 

What do we gain?

We gain a physical body.  We gain knowledge that we could not get without coming into mortality.  We also gain condemnation as we sin.  We gain salvation through a Savior that paid the price through his sacrifice so that we could be redeemed and saved to live again with him and our Father if we so choose to do so. 

In many ways, the story of Adam and Eve is the story of us and our own choices and decisions which have led us here, as well as what could lead us to salvation and exaltation in the future.

[romans8]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:26 PM, laronius said:

Alma 12:22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

When I read the definition section of The Plan of Salvation and Alma 12:31, they indicate the Fall/Spiritual
Death was caused by multiple events

The Fall 
The event [singular] by which mankind became mortal. It resulted in a spiritual and physical 
separation from God. Because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God's commandments [plural], 
they were separated from His presence (this separation is also called spiritual death) and became 
mortal (subject to physical death).

Spiritual Death
Separation from God as a result of disobeying His commandments [plural]. 

Alma 12:31
Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments [plural] 
as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in 
a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do 
evil or to do good.

I would agree with what was stated on page 6 - the Fall was caused by the decision [a singular event]
to eat from the forbidden tree. 

Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and they chose to do so. This was 
part of God's plan. Because of their decision, they were separated from God's presence physically 
and spiritually. They became mortal, that is, subject to sin and death. They were unable to return 
to Him without His help. Their physical and spiritual separation from God is called the Fall. 

[laronius]

26 minutes ago, romans8 said:

When I read the definition section of The Plan of Salvation and Alma 12:31, they indicate the Fall/Spiritual
Death was caused by multiple events

The Fall 
The event [singular] by which mankind became mortal. It resulted in a spiritual and physical 
separation from God. Because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God's commandments [plural], 
they were separated from His presence (this separation is also called spiritual death) and became 
mortal (subject to physical death).

Spiritual Death
Separation from God as a result of disobeying His commandments [plural]. 

Alma 12:31
Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments [plural] 
as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in 
a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do 
evil or to do good.

I would agree with what was stated on page 6 - the Fall was caused by the decision [a singular event]
to eat from the forbidden tree. 

Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and they chose to do so. This was 
part of God's plan. Because of their decision, they were separated from God's presence physically 
and spiritually. They became mortal, that is, subject to sin and death. They were unable to return 
to Him without His help. Their physical and spiritual separation from God is called the Fall. 

I think when it refers to commandments (plural) it's simply saying that Adam and Eve failed to keep God's commandments as a whole, not necessarily that they broke a certain number of them. Also, as we view Adam and Eve as representative of ourselves any commandment broken, whether one or multiple, brings a separation of us from God.