Chronology of the Theophany Experienced by the Brother of Jared


SpiritDragon
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Hey everyone, I'm wondering what thoughts others have on what could be considered the absolutist nature of the statement in Ether 3 that no one prior to the Brother of Jared had faith to see God. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to create any sort of attack situation against the Book of Mormon, as I believe it to be true - instead I'm trying to simply get other's thoughts to help me work some things out that I'm thinking on, and because I have children I'm always looking for concise and accurate information to help them with as they have questions and while honest, the answer, "I don't know"  just doesn't seem to be a faith promoting response from my perspective. So digging into this, here is the passage from Ether 3 in question:

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And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should asmite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, ashow thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: aBelievest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and acanst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord ashowed himself unto him, and said: bBecause thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my cpresence; therefore I dshow myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

15 And never have I ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

My primary wonderance is how this can be that he is the first. I've often just left it as being a matter of him living way back.... but still Adam surely walked with god in the garden (perhaps doesn't apply as being prior to the Fall) Cain seems to have conversed with the Lord (not necessarily seeing him, but still interesting and speaking to the fact that his killing of Abel was more than simple murder, but a covenant with Satan leading him to perdition - a state seemingly reserved for those who have sinned against the greater light, possibly only for those who have had their calling and election sure and chosen a different path anyway) and Enoch walked with God as did Noah, the former being taken up without tasting death along with a full city. These are all events prior to the tower of Babel saga. Perhaps, I'm reading too much into things, but it seems to me that the brother of Jared was clearly not the first to witness the Lord. I would wonder if perhaps a distinction would be made that he was the first to see Him with mortal eyes, and not in vision, but in the Doctrine and Covenants it seems pretty clear that Enoch definitely beheld the Lord:

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48 aEnoch was twenty-five years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam; and he was sixty-five and Adam blessed him.

49 And he asaw the Lord, and he walked with him, and was before his face continually; and he bwalked with God three hundred and sixty-five years, making him four hundred and thirty years old when he was translated.

One possibility that I see, is that I've always created a false understanding of this to be a chronological event that no one before has seen the Lord in the form of his mortal body while yet in the spirit prior to this event, when perhaps that is not actually what the scripture in Ether says at all. It says never has the Lord shown himself unto MAN, not that he hasn't shown himself unto individual men/women. This seems to be in keeping with Moses interaction with the Lord that is seemingly contradictory where in the same chapter it states that Moses spoke with God face to face, but also that no man shall see his face and live. This is clarified better in the JST/Inspired version:

 

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20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts, but my face shall not be seen, as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.

So I guess my thoughts are that the Brother of Jared experience has less to do with timing and more to do with the class of individual in which case the word "man" is being used generically as a class of those in the fallen state of natural man being an enemy to god, and never have (or will) these have the faith to meet Jesus in the flesh, but there are those such as Enoch and the Brother of Jared who essentially ascended to a higher plane (think Isaiah's spiritual ladder elucidated by Gileadi's works where Jacob/Israel are a class of believers that still have much work to do in repenting and truly turning their lives over to the Lord, but Zion/Jerusalem refers to a different class of people of who are covenant keeper). This allows for both the situation where any number of individuals could see God prior to the Brother of Jared's sacred experience and yet the statement that NEVER BEFORE has MAN still apply in truth.


 

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38 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Hey everyone, I'm wondering what thoughts others have on what could be considered the absolutist nature of the statement in Ether 3 that no one prior to the Brother of Jared had faith to see God. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to create any sort of attack situation against the Book of Mormon, as I believe it to be true - instead I'm trying to simply get other's thoughts to help me work some things out that I'm thinking on, and because I have children I'm always looking for concise and accurate information to help them with as they have questions and while honest, the answer, "I don't know"  just doesn't seem to be a faith promoting response from my perspective. So digging into this, here is the passage from Ether 3 in question:

My primary wonderance is how this can be that he is the first. I've often just left it as being a matter of him living way back.... but still Adam surely walked with god in the garden (perhaps doesn't apply as being prior to the Fall) Cain seems to have conversed with the Lord (not necessarily seeing him, but still interesting and speaking to the fact that his killing of Abel was more than simple murder, but a covenant with Satan leading him to perdition - a state seemingly reserved for those who have sinned against the greater light, possibly only for those who have had their calling and election sure and chosen a different path anyway) and Enoch walked with God as did Noah, the former being taken up without tasting death along with a full city. These are all events prior to the tower of Babel saga. Perhaps, I'm reading too much into things, but it seems to me that the brother of Jared was clearly not the first to witness the Lord. I would wonder if perhaps a distinction would be made that he was the first to see Him with mortal eyes, and not in vision, but in the Doctrine and Covenants it seems pretty clear that Enoch definitely beheld the Lord:

One possibility that I see, is that I've always created a false understanding of this to be a chronological event that no one before has seen the Lord in the form of his mortal body while yet in the spirit prior to this event, when perhaps that is not actually what the scripture in Ether says at all. It says never has the Lord shown himself unto MAN, not that he hasn't shown himself unto individual men/women. This seems to be in keeping with Moses interaction with the Lord that is seemingly contradictory where in the same chapter it states that Moses spoke with God face to face, but also that no man shall see his face and live. This is clarified better in the JST/Inspired version:

 

So I guess my thoughts are that the Brother of Jared experience has less to do with timing and more to do with the class of individual in which case the word "man" is being used generically as a class of those in the fallen state of natural man being an enemy to god, and never have (or will) these have the faith to meet Jesus in the flesh, but there are those such as Enoch and the Brother of Jared who essentially ascended to a higher plane (think Isaiah's spiritual ladder elucidated by Gileadi's works where Jacob/Israel are a class of believers that still have much work to do in repenting and truly turning their lives over to the Lord, but Zion/Jerusalem refers to a different class of people of who are covenant keeper). This allows for both the situation where any number of individuals could see God prior to the Brother of Jared's sacred experience and yet the statement that NEVER BEFORE has MAN still apply in truth.


 

Ether 3: 9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Do you have some examples of others with the faith to see the premortal Christ's mortal frame? This goes beyond quickening, translation and other interactions with the premortal Christ.

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2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Ether 3: 9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Do you have some examples of others with the faith to see the premortal Christ's mortal frame? This goes beyond quickening, translation and other interactions with the premortal Christ.

Are you looking for only examples prior to the Brother of Jared in historical context, or any such experience among prophets/individuals in Christ's premortal period?

 

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In response to examples of others seeing the premortal Christ let me share the following, which is by no means an exhaustive list:

Abraham sees the Lord on at least these two occasions: Genesis 12:7, 17:1

It is strongly insinuated that even his wife/concubine Hagar sees the Lord in Gen 16:13

Jacob sees the lord in Gen 32:30

Perhaps most well known is Moses seeing the Lord in Exodus 33 and greater detail in Moses 1

Isaiah sees the premortal Christ in Isaiah 6

Amos sees the Lord in Amos 9:1

David sees the Lord: Psalm 63:2

Leaving the OT to the BOM we have numerous other examples in Lehi, Nephi, Jacob and I'm sure more if I were to really dig into it. Naturally, these post date the visit to the Brother of Jared, but they are encounters with the premortal Lord.

Also as shared in the opening post, is the strong messaging that Enoch not only saw the Lord, but walked with Him 365 years continually before His face which does predate the Brother of Jared and certainly implies faith and access to the Lord comparable to that of the Brother of Jared.

I realize the details of these experiences aren't elucidated to the same detail as the account in the Book of Ether, and I'm not beholden to the idea that every meeting with the Lord either via physical eyes or in vision are the same magnitude, but I'd like you @CV75to further expound upon your assertion that it goes beyond quickening, transfiguration etc. If others see that he has the form of a man, how are they not seeing what the Brother of Jared saw?

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Lest I be thought a complete apostate, let me preface this by saying that in general I think we are best served approaching scripture with the initial presumption that it means what it says it means.  But . . . 

When I get to messy passages, I try to remember that while the scriptures are history, there are not (with the possible exception of the D&C, and even that is likely filtered to some degree through Joseph Smith’s experience with ancient scripture) a post-Enlightenment western style of history.  Their authors did not necessarily share our assumptions about what history is, or how it should work, or what should or shouldn’t be included, or the quality of sources, or any literary quality that the end product should show. 

For example—I don’t remember if it was Herodotus or Thucydides; but one of them gave a “history” of a war complete with a general’s pre-battle speech to his men urging them to fight well, rehearsing their people’s founding legends and giving an exposition on the geopolitical significance of the importance of the battle they were about to fight.  Modern historians are pretty confident that this speech was not given in this particular form, and that the general who ostensibly gave the speech may not have even been at that battle.  But ancient readers may not have considered this to be much of an issue, because they considered “literary merit” (including the building of tension and other qualities of having a good story) to be at least as essential to “history” (as they understood it) as factual accuracy—sometimes, more so.

The words attributed to the Lord by Moroni (or Ether, or the Brother of Jared) may not have been what the Lord actually said.*  But it certainly reinforces the singular nature of what was happening, the extraordinary nature of the Brother of Jared’s faith, and the power of faith to work things that have never been wrought before. 

 

*Then again, maybe the Lord isn’t above a little hyperbole in the name of a good story, either—at least when dealing with ancients who had a broader definition of “history” than we do.  D&C 19:7 suggests that maybe the Lord is more interested in what we do as a result of His words, than whether we interpret the words themselves with the objectively proper degree of accuracy.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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There is another possibility in this if we ignore the exact wording of what the Lord says, or at least reported and then translated as having said, and instead focus on what exactly happened that might be different from all of the previous encounters. The Lord did indeed show himself to others including at a meeting of Adam and many of his righteous posterity in which it appears the Lord appeared unto many of them.

But in all the instances prior to the brother of Jared it seems the Lord intended to show himself and did so. With the brother of Jared it appears that the showing was not caused by the Lord intending to do so but purely by the faith of the brother of Jared. If that is true then this particular type of showing would have been first.

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33 minutes ago, laronius said:

There is another possibility in this if we ignore the exact wording of what the Lord says, or at least reported and then translated as having said, and instead focus on what exactly happened that might be different from all of the previous encounters. The Lord did indeed show himself to others including at a meeting of Adam and many of his righteous posterity in which it appears the Lord appeared unto many of them.

But in all the instances prior to the brother of Jared it seems the Lord intended to show himself and did so. With the brother of Jared it appears that the showing was not caused by the Lord intending to do so but purely by the faith of the brother of Jared. If that is true then this particular type of showing would have been first.

That's an excellent insight. Certainly a very plausible reading.

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On 10/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, SpiritDragon said:

Are you looking for only examples prior to the Brother of Jared in historical context, or any such experience among prophets/individuals in Christ's premortal period?

 

Just those prior to Jared's, which would seem to have taken place slightly before Abraham's lifetime (or perhaps slightly overlapping his early life.

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On 10/22/2022 at 2:25 PM, SpiritDragon said:

In response to examples of others seeing the premortal Christ let me share the following, which is by no means an exhaustive list:

Abraham sees the Lord on at least these two occasions: Genesis 12:7, 17:1

It is strongly insinuated that even his wife/concubine Hagar sees the Lord in Gen 16:13

Jacob sees the lord in Gen 32:30

Perhaps most well known is Moses seeing the Lord in Exodus 33 and greater detail in Moses 1

Isaiah sees the premortal Christ in Isaiah 6

Amos sees the Lord in Amos 9:1

David sees the Lord: Psalm 63:2

Leaving the OT to the BOM we have numerous other examples in Lehi, Nephi, Jacob and I'm sure more if I were to really dig into it. Naturally, these post date the visit to the Brother of Jared, but they are encounters with the premortal Lord.

Also as shared in the opening post, is the strong messaging that Enoch not only saw the Lord, but walked with Him 365 years continually before His face which does predate the Brother of Jared and certainly implies faith and access to the Lord comparable to that of the Brother of Jared.

I realize the details of these experiences aren't elucidated to the same detail as the account in the Book of Ether, and I'm not beholden to the idea that every meeting with the Lord either via physical eyes or in vision are the same magnitude, but I'd like you @CV75to further expound upon your assertion that it goes beyond quickening, transfiguration etc. If others see that he has the form of a man, how are they not seeing what the Brother of Jared saw?

The others are not recording having seen the premortal Christ's mortal frame -- two estates, the premortal and mortal --at once. This is quite a feat, but from the Lord's standpoint is not impossible since He can comprehend past, present and future at once.

The brother of Jared confessed that he didn't even know that the Lord had flesh and blood at all (verse 8). No other account described God's body as Jared had comprehended it. So, the form seen in these other instances is of a man, but the material makeup is indeterminate except for the brother of Jared's account. Jesus explains that He typically presents in spirit form (verses 16-17), and it is exceptional that any man should "see" his flesh and blood (verse 9).

This is another way that the brother of Jared saw the Lord as no one else had up to that time, in addition to what @laronius shared.

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There is alot of stuff going on here in this chapter.  But to answer your question, I would focus on the verses 14&15.

Jehovah had showed himself to many of the prophets that had preceeded Mahonri.

But the physical demonstration that the Brother of Jared received, seems to have been more complete.

AND Jehovah had never previously revealed to anyone that He would eventually become Jesus Christ.

Mahonri was the first prophet to know Jehovah in his past, present, and future roles.  

 

Kinda like the opposite of Luke Skywaker's revelation with Darth Vader.   It was a big freakin deal.  

If you read between the lines, Jehovah is actually telling Mahonri.  "I AM YOUR FATHER."

Edited by mikbone
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3 hours ago, CV75 said:

The others are not recording having seen the premortal Christ's mortal frame -- two estates, the premortal and mortal --at once. This is quite a feat, but from the Lord's standpoint is not impossible since He can comprehend past, present and future at once.

The brother of Jared confessed that he didn't even know that the Lord had flesh and blood at all (verse 8). No other account described God's body as Jared had comprehended it. So, the form seen in these other instances is of a man, but the material makeup is indeterminate except for the brother of Jared's account. Jesus explains that He typically presents in spirit form (verses 16-17), and it is exceptional that any man should "see" his flesh and blood (verse 9).

This is another way that the brother of Jared saw the Lord as no one else had up to that time, in addition to what @laronius shared.

Thank you for your thoughts. It's a different perspective than I get from reading the same things and that is largely what I came asking for. Much appreciated.

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I'm reminded of my reading with regards to Hebrew teachings, or at least what I read. It is common in the Book of Mormon, especially, with regards to exaggeration (or what may have been according to who wrote the words at that time).

In the Book of Mormon, how often do we read the following type of phrase pertaining to the number of deaths in the war, and then the next war something is said, and then the next war something similar is said -- exaggeration pertaining to the current war.

This could be true according to the time, the view of the author. This could be according to the generation also. In that generation, this was the case. Or simply a phrase to draw attention to the magnitude of the casualties, rather than trying to pin down an exact number.

When I read this statement, I think it is the same. Adam obviously saw the Lord again and was brought back into his presence. This would mean he would have seen the Lord the same way as the Brother of Jared.

As already mentioned though, we don't know if anyone when watching something that the Lord was doing that they saw the Lord to a degree. So, in that sense, the record could easily mean exactly what it said. As far as we know, those who saw the Lord saw him. There was no partial vision. This highlights the power of faith, that if we have enough faith -- the veil becomes thin. Remembering the words of the Brother of Jared -- if you "touch" these stones. His faith was strong, and equal to knowledge (so to speak) that the finger of the Lord was seen -- just the finger because that is what he requested.

Or simply another Hebraic exaggeration to make a point.

Let's look at the English language. The word favorite. Literally, a favorite means a favorite, but how often do we use the word favorite for multiple items. I was one day teaching a seminary class and mentioned how this is my favorite scripture by which a student then said, "You have a lot of 'favorite' scriptures." I laughed and said, "Yes, I do."

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On 10/22/2022 at 12:25 PM, SpiritDragon said:

In response to examples of others seeing the premortal Christ let me share the following, which is by no means an exhaustive list:

Abraham sees the Lord on at least these two occasions: Genesis 12:7, 17:1

It is strongly insinuated that even his wife/concubine Hagar sees the Lord in Gen 16:13

Jacob sees the lord in Gen 32:30

Perhaps most well known is Moses seeing the Lord in Exodus 33 and greater detail in Moses 1

Isaiah sees the premortal Christ in Isaiah 6

Amos sees the Lord in Amos 9:1

David sees the Lord: Psalm 63:2

Leaving the OT to the BOM we have numerous other examples in Lehi, Nephi, Jacob and I'm sure more if I were to really dig into it. Naturally, these post date the visit to the Brother of Jared, but they are encounters with the premortal Lord.

Also as shared in the opening post, is the strong messaging that Enoch not only saw the Lord, but walked with Him 365 years continually before His face which does predate the Brother of Jared and certainly implies faith and access to the Lord comparable to that of the Brother of Jared.

I realize the details of these experiences aren't elucidated to the same detail as the account in the Book of Ether, and I'm not beholden to the idea that every meeting with the Lord either via physical eyes or in vision are the same magnitude, but I'd like you @CV75to further expound upon your assertion that it goes beyond quickening, transfiguration etc. If others see that he has the form of a man, how are they not seeing what the Brother of Jared saw?

 

Another take or interpretation...

I saw a caterpillar when it was a caterpillar, but I did not see it as a Moth.

It is very possible that others saw and talked with the Lord, but they did NOT see what his mortal form would appear as.  They saw his immortal spiritual form, but not what his physical form in mortality would appear as.

If this is what the Brother of Jared saw, I am not sure how he accomplished such a feat.

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I tend toward JAG's view. I reject the cynical view that words only mean what we assign to them, but I do think that God speaks to us in language we can understand and depends on the revelation of the Spirit to make the meaning clear. I do not know what the Lord specifically meant in this instance; I tend toward a very literal reading of most scripture, but even the most literal of scriptures is a use of tokens (in this case, written words) to represent external realities that cannot be immediately physically addressed.

I reject out of hand the obsession of Catholicism, indeed of larger Christianity, with metaphorical figurative interpretations of pretty much everything so as to be able to explain pretty much anything. It's the religious version of string theory*. On the other hand, I'm aware that you can't make a "literal interpretation" of words when the words themselves do not have absolutely concrete meaning. We can describe a story, an idea, a perfume, a horse, and a woman with the word "beautiful", but the specific meaning of the word changes in each case. What does "beautiful Savior" mean? More specifically, what does it mean to "take it literally"?

*A string theorist's wife walked into his office and found him kissing his secretary. As she was storming out, the man leapt to his feet and called out, "Wait! I can explain everything!"

Don't you just love physics humor? Physicists must all be dads.

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My understanding was that the Lord was saying no one has ever come to him with so much faith, not that he had never shown himself to anyone. 

So people had come with faith sufficient to see God, but not to the Brother of Jared's level. If you'll forgive the oversimplification, you could say that if the faith necessary to see God is an 18 out of 20, then certain men had come before him with an 18 or even a 19, but no one had ever before come with a perfect 20 out of 20. 

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On 10/27/2022 at 2:49 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

My understanding is that the Brother of Jared was the first to break through the veil by himself, because of his faith, to see the face of God. All the previous prophets had to be changed, by the Lord to be able to see him.

How do you mean "by himself"?

He still would have needed to be transfigured to endure God's. 

Did the Brother of Jared "breakthrough" the veil on his own, or did he fulfill all of God's requirements so that God was then bound by his promise to bring the Brother of Jared through the veil?

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3 hours ago, Poseidon said:

How do you mean "by himself"?

He still would have needed to be transfigured to endure God's. 

Did the Brother of Jared "breakthrough" the veil on his own, or did he fulfill all of God's requirements so that God was then bound by his promise to bring the Brother of Jared through the veil?

I am talking about when he first saw the finger of God. That faith was what allowed him to initially see God. Once he had done that the Lord seems surprised that his faith allowed this to happen.

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On 10/24/2022 at 3:56 PM, mikbone said:

https://rsc.byu.edu/voice-my-servants/rending-veil-unbelief

Jeffrey Holland goes over the event in detail in the last 1/3 of his talk.

Thanks so much for this, I had somehow missed it, but really appreciate it and thought it deserved more than a mere reaction click!

 

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On 11/1/2022 at 2:49 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am talking about when he first saw the finger of God. That faith was what allowed him to initially see God. Once he had done that the Lord seems surprised that his faith allowed this to happen.

Given his infinite foreknowledge, can the Lord be surprised by anything? 

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