Overhaul of FSY


Carborendum
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15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The first (which is what I believe you were alluding to -- correct me if I'm wrong) is that if they're only behaving a certain way because they believe in rules.  And rules are good.  So, thank Heaven we have them to guide us.  If we only obey because it is a rule and not because we understand the underlying principle behind them, then that will not be sufficient to survive in the coming tribulations.  We need to be in tune.  We need guidelines to help us focus.  But we need to be the guiding power of the Holy Ghost if we are to survive.  Those who depend on the rules alone to guide them may not have enough to survive.

How does one qualify for the guiding power of the Holy Ghost though? Is it not through obedience?

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The second is that there are those that begrudgingly follow the rules.  Now that the rules are gone, then, heck!  Forget the principles.  We can do whatever we want.  This second group was who I was considering the tares.

Agreed...except that we're all on a path. There was a time I begrudgingly did certain things that now I do willingly and happily. But if I'm honest, there are still certain things I do somewhat begrudgingly. (Fasting is one example). Maybe I'm secretly a tare. But I like to think not.

I don't know. Maybe what I'm trying to say is coming across, maybe not. And I could, of course be wrong. But I sure like the think that despite my bad attitudes and mortal weaknesses that my willingness to be obedient will be sufficient. And by golly, I sure believe that's what I've been promised.

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15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That said, I don't know of too many people who have gotten into trouble by following the rules without necessarily understanding the principles behind them.  Adam knew not save the Lord commanded him.  But by obeying the rules for a time, he learned what the rules were about.  True, we don't want to remain there indefinitely.  But if we obey because we have faith that it is a commandment of God, we usually don't remain in ignorance for long.

The Lord sees faithful obedience differently than blind obedience.  And faith is rewarded.

Of course I posted my other replies before I finished reading everything you'd written. Typical of me.

I see you are suggesting what I replied.

I am a big believer in obedience. I think it is plain that obedience is the umbrella under which all else falls.

I don't think I, personally, distinguish between blind obedience and faith. In point of fact, I'd contend that the blindness is requisite to the faith. The whole point of our mortal experience is to blind us, after all.

Moreover, having faith is a commandment and falls under the umbrella of obedience. As does having charity. As does seeking the spirit. As does not being commanded in all things and using our best wisdom. There's just no getting away from obedience in the end.

There's a difference, of course, between a tight structure of specific rules (law of Moses style) and a looser structure of general rules. But they're both still rules. And clearly the prior can distract from the later, and cause problems. We saw that in the time of Christ. The Jews had lost sight of what was important and focused solely on the rules. But that's not really the whole story. The fact is that they'd changed, added to, and ignored the rules. Looking beyond the mark isn't simply focusing too much on the rules. It's breaking the rules. The rule says don't look beyond the mark.

Anyhow, it's an interesting discussion.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How does one qualify for the guiding power of the Holy Ghost though? Is it not through obedience?

 

I wonder if the distinction between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost is apposite here.  I’ve had times in my life where I felt I had an inspired warning, even though I was quite sure I wasn’t living up to my covenants in one way or another (occasionally, a rather grievous way).

And take non-members, who can have the power but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.  General Eisenhower made some tactical decisions during WW2 that may well have been “inspired”; but he was also carrying on an extramarital affair at the time.  So was he truly inspired (in spite of his sins) by a divine Being who was interested in the outcome of the war?  Or was he just lucky?  Isaiah seems to suggest that Nebuchadnezzar, for all his personal sins, was still acting at the Lord’s behest . . .

Our doctrine is clear that unrepented sin nullifies the gift of the Holy Ghost.  But I’m not so sure that it builds an impenetrable wall between the sinner and the power of the Holy Ghost (though, naturally, I fully agree that a sinful lifestyle makes it far more likely that we will be deceived into accepting spurious “revelations” as legitimate).

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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On 11/1/2022 at 10:59 AM, MrShorty said:

@JohnsonJones I've seen the same kinds of questions around this. Are the old standards still in place or not?

I think this question is pretty clear to know the answer.  If prophetic advice has not changed, for those of us who have heard the counsel, that counsel (guideline or rule) remains in force. I do find it interesting how some members think that a new edition of something, if not explicitly mentioning something, that this somehow negates previous counsel.

Overall, with the FSY, we need to remember that we are a world-wide Church with many different cultures. Are R rated movies now OK because we no longer hear about R rated movies? No. The counsel still remains for those of us who have heard the counsel, and for those of us who live in a culture that has the rating system. There are other countries though that don't have the same rating system for movies. In that case, it is wise that the Church then doesn't specify a rating system as it can not be applied across all cultures, countries, the Church is among. Easy example who a young man from Norway, who watched all these movies that were R rated. When he asked if the girls in the room had watched them they replied, "No, those are R rated movies. We don't watch R rated movies." The young man's response was, "What's an R rated movie"?

In this case, proper guidelines and principles are the best route. This also then puts the onus back on parents. The Lord puts the onus on parents to teach their children proper guidelines and rules regarding principles of righteousness. The scriptures regarding a parents responsibility are now made more clear. What rules or guidelines do we set in our own home, which coincides with what you said -- we need to be able to teach such that our children can feel the Holy Spirit and gain the conviction themselves.

My oldest daughter loved this change, but that is because she sees herself as a responsible individual who can pray and make decisions for herself. That may be true, but we still have guidelines. Example, one night she came downstairs and was about to watch a movie. It was R rated. Both my wife and I simple said, "I'm sorry you can't watch that in our home." She was not pleased. She had done all the research. She knew why it was R rated. She knew some PG-13 were worse. She made her plea, by which both of us said, "Sorry, no." She was not pleased. I explained to her, we believe in the Lord's Church. We believe in his prophets. This is counsel they provided. We keep that counsel. The counsel has not changed for those of us with the movie rating system. We also said, once out of our home you will need to make that decision for yourself, but while in our home these are the rules.

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9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Agreed...except that we're all on a path.

Yes, that is true.  What made me choose the words I did was not because of general conditions, but because we're about to come up against a period of turmoil that may or may not be the beginnings of the Purge.

In such a setting, I believe that (as a rule) people who are doing so begrudgingly are not going to have enough support, time, opportunities, etc. to turn themselves around.  So, while in other settings, they may have been able to get back on the wagon, it will become increasingly hard to do so in the coming times.

But you know me.  Apocalyptic Carb.

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I wonder if the distinction between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost is apposite here.  I’ve had times in my life where I felt I had an inspired warning, even though I was quite sure I wasn’t living up to my covenants in one way or another (occasionally, a rather grievous way).

And take non-members, who can have the power but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.  General Eisenhower made some tactical decisions during WW2 that may well have been “inspired”; but he was also carrying on an extramarital affair at the time.  So was he truly inspired (in spite of his sins) by a divine Being who was interested in the outcome of the war?  Or was he just lucky?  Isaiah seems to suggest that Nebuchadnezzar, for all his personal sins, was still acting at the Lord’s behest . . .

Our doctrine is clear that unrepented sin nullifies the gift of the Holy Ghost.  But I’m not so sure that it builds an impenetrable wall between the sinner and the power of the Holy Ghost (though, naturally, I fully agree that a sinful lifestyle makes it far more likely that we will be deceived into accepting spurious “revelations” as legitimate).

There's a lot to unpack here, but I'm not sure it's all relevant, so let me simplify by asking this. Are you suggesting that one seeks the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost through means other than obedience? I mean, clearly, it's not a 1 to 1 perfect-obedience or no Holy Ghost. But that seems like a logical fallacy argument as a counterpoint to what I'm suggesting. My comment does not even imply that the Holy Ghost is incapable of guiding us when we aren't obedient (that's the part that could be unpacked in a great amount of depth and might be an interesting conversation....) But how, exactly, do we seek the Holy Ghost if it isn't through at least an effort of some level of obedience?

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, that is true.  What made me choose the words I did was not because of general conditions, but because we're about to come up against a period of turmoil that may or may not be the beginnings of the Purge.

In such a setting, I believe that (as a rule) people who are doing so begrudgingly are not going to have enough support, time, opportunities, etc. to turn themselves around.  So, while in other settings, they may have been able to get back on the wagon, it will become increasingly hard to do so in the coming times.

But you know me.  Apocalyptic Carb.

I agree with this. But I also believe that God, being no respecter of persons, and perfectly just in all His doings, will hold the person who lived in a time of little turmoil and was given timely opportunity for course changes to the same accountability, ultimately, as the person who lived in extreme turmoil and had little time to change course. I don't know how that all works. But I trust it will be fair. Maybe it's related to when and why each of us was born when and why we were. Maybe it'll be worked out through choices in the spirit world. Maybe something else. I've never understood how a man living into his 80s in an overall peaceful time has the same test as the man living only into his 30s in a raucous and evil time. The test does not seem equal to all. But I trust, somehow, it is. And maybe that means a bit more strictness against the one who had it easy and a bit more leniency and understanding for the one who did not. I dunno. What I do know is that the requirement to seek the Spirit or we will be separated from the wheat and not survive is not new. That is an eternal doctrine. The fact that President Nelson told us we won't survive in the coming days without learning to seek the Spirit doesn't mean that those who lived in the 80s, 70s, 60s, and for all time, etc., could survive without learning to seek the Spirit.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There's a lot to unpack here, but I'm not sure it's all relevant, so let me simplify by asking this. Are you suggesting that one seeks the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost through means other than obedience?

Oh, good gravy, no.  🙂

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13 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:
13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There's a lot to unpack here, but I'm not sure it's all relevant, so let me simplify by asking this. Are you suggesting that one seeks the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost through means other than obedience? 

Oh, good gravy, no.  🙂

None of us are perfect.  And the Lord chooses the best tool for the job which is available at the time.  That means using tools that are less than desirable.  And that would mean that He will inspire some people for specific purposes because they are the right person for the job.

I've been prepping for my lesson this Sunday about Daniel.  A detailed look at Ch 2 (his dream about the statue) reveals something that I've never heard mentioned before.

"Nebuchadnezzar chose to withhold the dream's details as a test."

The plain reading says that he couldn't remember the dream.  He only knew that it troubled him.  But a careful reading doesn't say that was the reality.  It only says Neb said so.  What if he lied to all these magicians?  What if it was a test?

Only if these people actually had power would he listen to their interpretation.  Daniel proved he had power from the Lord because he could discern the dream without being told what the dream was.

What should have been most startling was that Daniel told him that while his kingdom is powerful now, it would soon be conquered and taken over.  Another man in the king's position would normally have beheaded the guy for giving him such bad news.  But instead, he gave them honor and power. 

LESSON:  Neb did not want to be surrounded by yes men.  He wanted people with actual strength, power, and wisdom to be his advisors.

The Lord gave this man this dream.  But this same man whom the Lord raised up also wanted to force these men to worship idols.

The Lord may judge us at the final judgment for our final destination based on what principles He alone sees fit to apply.  I believe that those principles may be different when "choosing the right tool for the job" while here in mortality.

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On 11/2/2022 at 8:18 AM, laronius said:

As the darkness of the world increases our youth will need to be able to access the light of the gospel, not just specific rules. Simply knowing the commandments does not fortify me against temptation but spending time in the scriptures and praying does. The innocence of youth is disappearing increasingly earlier in life and "because I said so" is just not enough. They need to gain conviction of these truths for themselves earlier as well.

 

This may be true...but to go back to my teaching analogy  (because that is what I am familiar with)...

If I give a student a book about the Revolutionary War and ask them to learn about it and the principles behind it, 95% of the time it's a lost cause.  They aren't going to study it on their own.  That's why I'm there.

If I give them general items to look at and study, 90% of the time they aren't really going to learn anything.  If I test them, 90% of them would fail.  This is why we have lectures to focus on specifics.

If I tell them specifics and focus on specific items for them to learn and study for the test I will have a majority able to at least learn the MAJOR points of the Revolutionary War.  They may not have a deep understanding that those 5% would have in the first example, or even a decent comprehension of the material the 10% would in the second example, but they WILL AT LEAST know the basics.  70% knowing WHAT the Revolutionary War was and why it was important is better to me than having 5% having a deep understanding of the motivations, impacts, and intricacies.  If only 5% pass, and 95% remain ignorant after a general elective History class, that is a MASSIVE failure. 

I know we all HOPE that our young students (or youth in this case) will be as excited by the subject matter as we may be, but the truth is, most of them are not going to be as involved as our high hopes may wish they were. 

It's like what I see with Energy drinks among the Young adults in the college who are LDS now.  Previously, when Caffeinated drinks were too at least be avoided (and at the time, it was NOT simply because they were caffeine as many try to argue, BUT because Caffeine is an addictive drug, and as per President Kimball, we were to avoid all addictive substances and drugs that were not beneficial to our system, as that was a violation of the Word of Wisdom...an item that is STILL looked at today by some church leaders as a guide in regards to illegal drug use today) students overall (that I knew) didn't really drink energy drinks or other coffee like substances.  Now, I see students drinking energy drinks, cold GREEN tea drinks (despite the adage against coffee, or tea, they claim as it's a cold beverage it's the same as any other caffeinated drink now that pepsi and coke are allowed), and various other items related to coffee or tea.  They go to the coffee shops regularly (not to get coffee, but to get other things from them). 

Previously, we were told to avoid even the appearance of evil, so going to a coffee shop simply just seems counter to this. 

We may have high hopes for youth to capture the "spirit" of things, but in my experience, normally this will not happen without being specific in telling the youth what is or is not expected.

The "Spirit" of the Law utilized by some is an excuse to break the commandments.  When I served as a Church leader several years ago I had the refrain that you cannot keep the Spirit of the Law if you do not keep the Letter of the Law.  You must first obey the Commandments in order to exceed them.  In otherwords, the Spirit of the Law comes from an understanding of the Commandments and then not only obeying them, but since you understand their source and reasons, you are able to also obey further.

A prime example is the Lower to the Higher law.  In the Law you should not commit adultery.  You should not fornicate.  You should not do Homosexual acts. 

One who understood this law would then be able to keep these commandments and follow the HIGHER law and ideal which the Lord put forth which is you should not even LOOK upon a woman (or any object of lust which could also include men) to lust upon her, even in your heart.  You would be keeping the Lower law by default and with the Higher law, have cleaner thoughts and a purer heart if you had the Spirit of the Law which you were keeping, even in the days of Moses. 

As I said, I have only guesses as to the moves they are making in the rewrite of the program.  I don't know the reasons why.  I DO know from experiences with College age students that trying to HOPE that they will get a deeper understanding from giving them general ideas is normally NOT a winning proposition, so I don't know exactly where the Youth Leadership of the church is going with these ideas. 

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On 11/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

But I also believe that God, being no respecter of persons, and perfectly just in all His doings, will hold the person who lived in a time of little turmoil and was given timely opportunity for course changes to the same accountability, ultimately, as the person who lived in extreme turmoil and had little time to change course. I don't know how that all works. But I trust it will be fair.

I had to take some time to think about this.  I've had a similar understanding as well.  Yet, there was something about the way the prophet has been speaking about "surviving" in the coming years/days.  I'm still wondering if I really understand.  But here are my thoughts at present.  Maybe I'll come across something as I ramble.

I've been mulling over how much of our lives are really a result of how we "react" to what happens to us rather than what conditions caused us to react in the way we did.  The primary observation that really has me wondering is comparing my younger sister to my younger daughter.

Being highly acquainted with each of them, I am in a very good place to know what their emotional/intellectual/spiritual makeups were like.  They are INCREDIBLY similar.  But the trials they've both gone through were completely different.  Yet, they both turned out to become very similar from a spiritual/faithful/obedience perspective.

We may think that we turn out different depending on how tough we had it.  In some ways that's true.  But it is really interesting to me how two people can go through different life experiences and turn out to be about the same.

On 11/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe it's related to when and why each of us was born when and why we were. Maybe it'll be worked out through choices in the spirit world. Maybe something else...

There is certainly a different dynamic that we need to consider in mortality vs how we will be judged on the final day.  But if we talk about how we "can't expect" people to behave well under extreme circumstance, it opens to door to releasing people from personal responsibility.

Yes, I absolutely agree that there are extreme circumstances where it is extremely difficult for an average "good person" to resist evil.  And we hope that we will never be placed in such a circumstance.  But then we come across the idea that the Lord will never test us beyond that which we are able.

Able.  That is a very interesting concept for this discussion. 

Do these "extreme circumstances" pop up out of nowhere?  Generally, no.  I believe the counsel from the Prophet is addressing the situations we have the agency to choose the first domino.  If we were not the ones to choose the first or second domino of such an arrangement, then I believe it would be just to place this in a different category.

In times past, we can stop it at the second, or third, or...  But at some point we can't outrun the falling dominoes.  It is a poor strategy to hope we can stop the 9th domino.  If we do so, the 10th domino will fall whether we choose it or not.  So, we have a chance to stop the progression before it is too late.  In past times, the dominoes fell more slowly.  In the coming days (we're possibly already there) the dominos will fall faster.  We may not be able to stop the progression.

That is why we need the CONSTANT influence of the Holy Ghost.  We need to stop the first (or possibly the second) domino from falling ASAP.  We can't wait for the 5th or 6th.  That 0.35 seconds may begin something that we can't stop.  The human mind can't deal with the constant barrage.  But the Holy Ghost can step in there when our mortal minds can't.

I've rambled enough.  I hope there is some pearl in there somewhere.

Edited by Carborendum
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On 11/2/2022 at 6:14 PM, Anddenex said:

If prophetic advice has not changed,...

In many ways, I think this is the whole thing that people are wondering about -- has prophetic advice changed?

I'm old enough to recall a seminary lesson talking about the prophetic advice to avoid interracial marriages. The principle behind the counsel was that interracial marriages allegedly had a higher incidence of divorce, so the principle given was to choose a spouse that you were more confident of having a long and successful marriage with. Forty years later, it seems pretty clear to me that no one (not even current prophets) are counseling against interracial marriages, but the underlying principle is still alive and well and very wise -- when dating and courtship turn towards seriously seeking a spouse, seek someone to whom you are comfortable making a lifelong commitment with, and then do what you need to do to nourish that relationship so it will last.

Movies and media can also be a good example. As you say, ratings are inconsistent across the world and, sometimes, even inconsistent within the same rating body. Rather than focus on a specific rating, it is better to look at the underlying principles about media choices as we make decisions about what entertainment we consume. As your anecdote shows, some will come to different conclusions about what media is appropriate at what isn't based on how we each apply the underlying principles.

So, I still see a lot of questions around about how prophetic advice might be changing with this new principles based approach. As I said, if we don't think prophetic advice has changed, then our challenge as parents as leaders is understanding the principles and being able to teach those principles. As @JohnsonJones says, it might be difficult to teach the principles to our youth without specific examples and anecdotes and such to help them understand.

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2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

In many ways, I think this is the whole thing that people are wondering about -- has prophetic advice changed?

I agree, and I think the answer is clear -- no. Prophetic advice doesn't change unless it is specifically countered; although, now it is more upon us as parents to teach, set rules, and guidelines. @JohnsonJones actually makes a valid point with his grandson (I think he said grandson) and dating. At this point, I would still rely on what the counsel has been as a parent (similar to what I have already done with my daughter).

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I'm old enough to recall a seminary lesson talking about the prophetic advice to avoid interracial marriages. The principle behind the counsel was that interracial marriages allegedly had a higher incidence of divorce, so the principle given was to choose a spouse that you were more confident of having a long and successful marriage with. Forty years later, it seems pretty clear to me that no one (not even current prophets) are counseling against interracial marriages, but the underlying principle is still alive and well and very wise -- when dating and courtship turn towards seriously seeking a spouse, seek someone to whom you are comfortable making a lifelong commitment with, and then do what you need to do to nourish that relationship so it will last.

I'm old enough also to remember this counsel, and I believe the counsel was from Spencer W. Kimball -- originally. The counsel then was also, but if you have prayed and God has confirmed then move forward with your witness, and then do what you said in your last statement.

The counsel hasn't been countered, so the counsel still remains. This counsel, if I am remembering what I had been taught and read was more based in cultural interracial differences. The divorce rates were high for interracial marriages from different cultures (i.e. American marrying Japanese). If I am remembering correctly, statistics backed this up. The counsel is sound. There are some marriages that will not work still in our day if they are culturally interracial. Example, if a friend of mine who married a woman from his mission -- Japan (also why I used the example). Their marriage ended within 10 years. But the main counsel still exists, ask God if God confirms for both of you -- move forward.

The point I'm making, if the counsel previously given has not been countered, then the previous counsel remains sound. I mean, let's be frank with this counsel, soon (scripturally speaking) we will all be one. At that point, the counsel will be null and void due to heart, mind, and decisions. :)

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

So, I still see a lot of questions around about how prophetic advice might be changing with this new principles based approach. As I said, if we don't think prophetic advice has changed, then our challenge as parents as leaders is understanding the principles and being able to teach those principles. As @JohnsonJones says, it might be difficult to teach the principles to our youth without specific examples and anecdotes and such to help them understand.

Looks like from this I didn't make my point clear enough. I am in agreement here. The responsibility is on us, although that really never changed, as parents to teach in a way that our children can understand. We can still use previous counsel to back it up because that is the counsel.

Also, with interracial dating, my daughter maybe one. She wants to live and teach in Korea. If so, the chances are high her husband could be from Korea. If that is the case, I would use the counsel already provided along with the most important counsel -- if God confirms then move forward and add what you said, "then do what you need to do to nourish that relationship so it will last."

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4 hours ago, Anddenex said:


The counsel hasn't been countered, so the counsel still remains. This counsel, if I am remembering what I had been taught and read was more based in cultural interracial differences. 

Agreed.

My overall synthesis of President Kimball’s teachings on marriage is:  “Marriage is hard.  Any two good, committed people with similar values can make a marriage work.  But, some things tend to make marriage harder than it needs to be.  You will probably find yourself in a more successful marriage if you select a mate in such a way as will minimize potential misunderstandings, conflicts, and trials down the road—particularly when you are vetting a potential mate with whom misunderstandings, conflicts, and trials are not only foreseeable but likely.”

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