Kyrie Irving Tweet -- 1984 Type Scenario


Anddenex
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On 11/16/2022 at 12:31 PM, Anddenex said:

Already heading down that dark path -- and why shouldn't those freedoms be abridged -- if others can be abridged and you are OK with it, why not others?

Are we going to realize what has been lost sooner, or be like the Germans who found out to late? If you are OK with some abridgements, what makes then your opinion on what others shouldn't be abridged as valid? What if someone disagrees and then it is abridged? Will you stand for it?

What I have noticed is that individuals who make excuses for one thing will make excuses just as easily for another as long as they can justify the decision logically and rationally. Look at the riots as a perfect example, and hearing people "justify" the actions.

We live in a world where calling a woman a woman and a man a man is now hate speech an exciting violence. Yes, already down this dark path dear brother where good is evil and evil is good. We will sadly see more of this as time passes on, as God begins to make the dark deeds apparent to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

Overall, we have far more freedom than others.

HOWEVER, there are areas we have lost  (and others where we have gained) freedom of expression in the past century  (or more accurately, the past 70 years).

Many would consider these good areas to have shortened people's freedom to do things, others probably consider them terrible.

Ironically, the CHURCH itself supports some of the areas where these freedoms have been lost.

The BIG area for loss of freedom is the ability to choose who you want to employ and who you want to sell to.  We lost the ability to discriminate against other people in regards to employment or in publicly selling retail.  This means that we cannot discriminate against someone on the basis of sex, religion, race, and various other factors (such as, when it applies, disability for example.

Is this a good abridgment?  There are MANY who feel this IS a good abridgment of freedom.

Is this the sign that you are talking about where we are heading down the path of the 1920s Germany?

Historically speaking, it stems from the opposite end of the spectrum so that would be ironic.  More likely, those who wish to enable discrimination more blatantly including areas of employment tend to exhibit the signs of facism far more than those who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

That doesn't mean we should label any of these groups which are composed of the majority of Americans as Facist or heading in that direction though.

Doing so normally weakens an argument unless there is legitimate comparisons that facts and HISTORY agree with.

Most who try to say these things are lacking in their historical accuracy in many instances and wish instead to exaggerate to try to make a political point.

Laws to disable discrimination in these factors normally go counter to the discrimination that abounded during the regimes that existed in Germany and other portions of Europe during the 1930s.  They also normally are somewhat counter to the Communist government's actual actions during the 1950s and 60s where discrimination against certain groups were especially high.

That said, we have also gained many freedoms of expression (not that I would actually think these are good things, but if you are pro free speech without boundaries, you may).  Ironically again, the CHURCH has actually opposed many of these.

The expressions that deal with immoral actions, portrayals, and what would been seen as extremely offensive morally in the past are now allowed to be shown with almost no barriers in the United States and Europe today.  The freedom to express such things in media came about from such individuals such as Larry Flynt (sp?) and others who challenged our communities standards of morality in expressing such things.  As a result, today we see things in R-Rated, PG-13, and even PG movies that would have been highly censored or outright banned when I was a child.

Is this a good thing?

There is a fine balance between what is good and what is evil and what should or should not be allowed in our expression and our free expression of things as well as what we are allowed or not allowed to do.  This balance has changed over the past 100 years.

If we go back 100 years, Kyrie Irving would have simply not been employed in most cases, at least in the sports he plays.  He may have had trouble finding a job that would employ him period, as employers were MUCH more free to employ who they wanted and take their own discrimination as a factor.

Today, due to laws that said we could not do certain things, the landscape has changed.  Businesses try to use these to cater to what they feel will bring the most money. 

In that regard, one of the aspects which is still attractive for businesses in the Western World is the freedom to ACT as THEY CHOOSE (instead of what the government mandates what they do, as many businesses found out to their detriment in Russia recently). 

They still try to cater to audiences in ways they feel will bring them the most money.  When an employee decides to impact that in a negative way, there are MANY instances (not just the NBA, many businesses just fire people who do this) where the business will take action against that employee.  This means that when certain things may be stated and become widely public, and a business deems that will turn off many of their audience, they will take action.

If we disagree with how much influence one group of the public has over business decisions, then the best way to counter that is to get a group that has more money and SPENDS more money to have a BIGGER impact to change the way that business operates. 

A business CAN dictate what an employee says or acts when that employee is being seen as representative of that business.  They are not a government, and as long as they are part of the Western World and we still have freedom of speech, they will still be protected in their ability to do such things in most instances.

It is wonderful to live in the Free World.  It is wonderful to enjoy the blessings thereof. 

However, when we talk about what freedoms we have had abridged and what freedoms we gain, it is good to see exactly what freedoms we really have lost (for example, the freedom to discriminate in business, which I don't know a ton of people that are against this, but...there you go) as well as the freedoms we have gained (we have gained the ability to be much more graphic in our expressions and portrayals regarding language, violence and immorality due to what some deem as art taking precedence over community standards of morality for example).

Many may not realize that by calling for the abridgment of expression and speech from businesses, we are ALSO CALLING for OUR OWN ABRIDGMENT of expression, though many do not realize that this would be the end result if we try to push these things to their logical conclusion. 

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16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

this the sign that you are talking about where we are heading down the path of the 1920s Germany?

I’ve always wanted to ask people who lived through the Holocaust if they care about people comparing how we live in America today to Nazi Germany. Oh sure, some might agree. But I think the vast majority of those who have actually lived under the horrors of communism/Nazism would either laugh or be appalled at the comparisons. 

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1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

I’ve always wanted to ask people who lived through the Holocaust if they care about people comparing how we live in America today to Nazi Germany. Oh sure, some might agree. But I think the vast majority of those who have actually lived under the horrors of communism/Nazism would either laugh or be appalled at the comparisons. 

The horrors visited upon my mother-in-law by the Nazis have had far-reaching and profound effects on her daughters, which inevitably affect the next generation. So for me, this is a personal thing. People who lightly compare Nazis to whatever they dislike do violence to the memory of those who sacrificed to defeats the Nazi horror. One very quick way to get Vort to ignore your opinion is to drag Naziism into the discussion as a comparison with what you don't like.

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15 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’ve always wanted to ask people who lived through the Holocaust if they care about people comparing how we live in America today to Nazi Germany. Oh sure, some might agree. But I think the vast majority of those who have actually lived under the horrors of communism/Nazism would either laugh or be appalled at the comparisons. 

Most of that generation has passed on (due to old age).  The ones that I know that are still alive today were children at the time.

It was rather brutal on children in those places.  All the ones I know in the United States are VERY PROUD to be United States Citizens today, and are very proud of the United States itself.  They are pretty patriotic.

Interestingly enough, most of them (not all of them) that I know from the United States personally are also Democrats.  That probably is an interesting facet in regards to the make up of the Latter-day Saints in the U.S. 

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1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

Most of that generation has passed on (due to old age).  The ones that I know that are still alive today were children at the time.

Oh, all good points. @Vort will know better than I will of course but the ones who are still alive probably don’t want to talk about it. They were from that generation that kept quiet about those things. My grandfather (An American, for the record) fought in WWII but he “almost never spoke about it” according to my dad. 
 

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Guest Godless
53 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

https://politi.co/3UNDBpP?fbclid=IwAR0VP3pvPtAtqSFcfkFGQlmp4NvIuCrYfhkmqwpfNcVG8TE1yE9eZieA5YY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

speaking of 1984, a federal judge who never read the book or vastly misunderstood it cited it when they struck down part of our anti woke law. It’s wrong when the left does it too. 

Eh, it's a stretch but I don't think he's that far off. Politicization of university curriculums by the government is a dangerous game to play. Telling a university which ideas of race and gender its allowed to promote and which are off limits does indeed sound a bit dystopian. 

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

Eh, it's a stretch but I don't think he's that far off. Politicization of university curriculums by the government is a dangerous game to play. Telling a university which ideas of race and gender its allowed to promote and which are off limits does indeed sound a bit dystopian. 

Fortunately, it’s only the other guys who are political.  Our side is just telling the truth, which some cretins are too unenlightened to accept. ;)

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

Eh, it's a stretch but I don't think he's that far off. Politicization of university curriculums by the government is a dangerous game to play. Telling a university which ideas of race and gender its allowed to promote and which are off limits does indeed sound a bit dystopian. 

Yeah, sorry @Godless but it’s a massive stretch when the left does it too. 

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2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

https://politi.co/3UNDBpP?fbclid=IwAR0VP3pvPtAtqSFcfkFGQlmp4NvIuCrYfhkmqwpfNcVG8TE1yE9eZieA5YY&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

speaking of 1984, a federal judge who never read the book or vastly misunderstood it cited it when they struck down part of our anti woke law. It’s wrong when the left does it too. 

As much as I hate to align myself with the American political Left, I don't see how this law can possibly withstand scrutiny (assuming the Politico writeup is basically factual). The irony is that de Santis appears to be trying to use the Left's sociopolitical playbook against them. Silencing evil by evil means is still, um, evil. Lord, come quickly.

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18 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Is this the sign that you are talking about where we are heading down the path of the 1920s Germany?

Nope, it was a general statement. The Nazi's didn't take power in one day, it was over time with micro changes that were supported by the people, by businesses, etc... There has been no leader that changed a government, that did it in one day. It has always been through micro changes with a supporting group -- that group will be business, that group will be parties, that group will be every day citizens who just blindly accept paths that lead down it -- we are already heading down it.

Comparisons are one of the ways we learn -- objective and experience. It is very telling when immigrants that come from tyrannical governments begin to highlight aspects -- comparison -- of what is done and how they control their denizens. When we discount it, how long then will it take to become just another nation that loses what it originally had?

And I'm not bothered at all by people who think comparisons with tyrannical regimes is bad or is taboo, that only aids in the reality of it happening again. Similar to the woke ideology, if you aren't a woman you can't speak about abortion, if you do your a misogynist. Recognizing aspects that are a reality, calling it out, like the North Korean immigrant is how we prevent it.

 

Edited by Anddenex
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8 hours ago, LDSGator said:

You don’t think it’s insulting to those who died in Stalin’s prison camps? Or those who were persecuted just for being Jewish in Nazi Germany? 

No, why should I? What happened in Germany is called "history" do you think it is insulting to talk about history and to learn from history so we don't repeat the same mistakes?

What happened in Russia (Stalin) is history, do you think it is insulting to learn from Russian history and to recognize when another Stalin is rising, or a group of people like Stalin are rising?

What happened in any other country or civilization when a tyranny thrives is "history", is history now insulting to learn from and prevent the same mistakes?

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47 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

No, why should I? What happened in Germany is called "history" do you think it is insulting to talk about history and to learn from history so we don't repeat the same mistakes?

What happened in Russia (Stalin) is history, do you think it is insulting to learn from Russian history and to recognize when another Stalin is rising, or a group of people like Stalin are rising?

What happened in any other country or civilization when a tyranny thrives is "history", is history now insulting to learn from and prevent the same mistakes?

Ok. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/3/2022 at 6:54 PM, Anddenex said:

Interesting world, and idealogy in America, we are now living within now. Somehow Kyrie is having to pay/donate $500,000 due to a tweet that showed a book that is sold on Amazon. It's also interesting that he is the one being attacked, but not so much. He is outspoken on topics he believes and doesn't let certain things control him. So, it's not surprising.

How does a person get into a difficult situation with a tweet, while Amazon remain unscathed? It's pretty obvious.

Also, from what I could tell the OK sign is now racist and a sign for white power, which is also the same sign used to sign the number 9 in sign language. Some white power in the "deaf" culture now. It will be interesting to see how more closely we will follow 1984 in not so many years.

I need to apologize about some of my previous posts.  It occurred to me that I'd only read 1984 as a freshman in high school...  And, let's just say that I was a very naïve teenager.  And I have a suspicion that my English teacher had never read it herself. 

I went and found a copy to read.  Holy COW!  There were so many nuances that just went right over my head when I was younger.  And with my mentality of not comprehending words other than their face value... Subtext, double-meanings,etc.  I was completely oblivious.  It was basically a learning disability.

Yes, everything you said was right.  We're already there.  But luckily, the internet is very difficult to fully scrub.  We have information at our fingertips.  And social media is doing its best to limit that information availability to the average person.

I'm reminded of Biden's statement about what gas prices were under Trump.  Wow!  And even with the internet, people simply believe it.  Worse, the MEDIA is repeating the claims.  New-speak?  How about NEWSpeak?

Time for hating others for their hate-speech.

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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm reminded of Biden's statement about what gas prices were under Trump.  Wow!  And even with the internet, people simply believe it.  Worse, the MEDIA is repeating the claims.  New-speak?  How about NEWSpeak?

Time for hating others for their hate-speech.

Yes, newspeak is quite prevalent in our society today. All we have to do is look closely to the removal or simple change of words to mean something different, or to simply remove the orthodox meaning of the intended word change.

Then, look at how this will ultimately change the outcome of anything and all that encompasses that word.

A movie I loved in high school was the movie "Swing Kids"! What I discovered, many years later, is how the main concept of 1984 is in this movie. As I read 1984 I constantly was reminded of this movie (not surprising seeing the content of the movie).

Then you begin to realize the main focus of any change will always include the teaching/instruction of the upcoming generation. What words you can or can not say, rather than understanding free speech and what that entails and "actually" does not entail. Give a group specific rights without punishment, even if their deeds should be punished. The most recent riots are a good example of this.

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So I was watching live last night when Kanye "Ye" walked out on Tim Pool. Man, the guy cannot communicate. And he can't take criticism. He's really hurting himself here.

I kind of get what he's saying re "the Jews". He's trying to make the point that people generalize "black" people and it's fine, but if you do it with "Jews" it's gasp, choke, spit. The problem with that, of course, is that the solution isn't to demand we can generalize "the Jews", but rather to demand that we stop generalizing "the Blacks".

Anyhow, it's unfortunate. Kanye had the potential to be a force for some good. Unfortunately he's just too messed up. 

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So I was watching live last night when Kanye "Ye" walked out on Tim Pool. Man, the guy cannot communicate. And he can't take criticism. He's really hurting himself here.

I kind of get what he's saying re "the Jews". He's trying to make the point that people generalize "black" people and it's fine, but if you do it with "Jews" it's gasp, choke, spit. The problem with that, of course, is that the solution isn't to demand we can generalize "the Jews", but rather to demand that we stop generalizing "the Blacks".

Anyhow, it's unfortunate. Kanye had the potential to be a force for some good. Unfortunately he's just too messed up. 

I think it’s more sad than anything else. The man clearly needs mental health counseling. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/17/2022 at 6:44 PM, Vort said:

As much as I hate to align myself with the American political Left, I don't see how this law can possibly withstand scrutiny (assuming the Politico writeup is basically factual). The irony is that de Santis appears to be trying to use the Left's sociopolitical playbook against them. Silencing evil by evil means is still, um, evil. Lord, come quickly.

I believe the state has every right to govern what is taught at state-run schools.  That's why I homeschooled my children.  When we're paying for it, then we have every right to teach our children what we think is best.

Prior to public education, we had religious schools, charity schools, and private schools.  Each were governed by the source of funding.  And it seemed to work well.

Why do we believe that public schools should have any less power to govern what they fund?  The only problem with our current system is that we have compulsory attendance from K-12.  If they got rid of that, we'd actually have better education, not worse.  But no one in this state-school-saturated society will even consider the truth of those words much less listen to the reasons why.

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I finished 1984.  I'm a bit discouraged.  I see the specific behaviors outlined by Orwell coming to life today in the US.

I suppose all societies are guilty of such things at some point or other.  But for most of my life they were scattered outliers.  They weren't the rule.

But today, I'm seeing them as the rule.  It is quite disheartening.  And my personal opinion is that we've gone into overdrive since the Bush vs. Gore election.  That was when the gas pedal was pushed to the floor.  And today I see the cliff coming up pretty fast.

I'll try to cheer myself up with something not so doomsday-ish.  Perhaps some light reading like The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.  It is so much fun.  The preface alone took a whole 15 minutes to get through.  I think it will be a while.

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I finished 1984.  I'm a bit discouraged.  I see the specific behaviors outlined by Orwell coming to life today in the US.

I suppose all societies are guilty of such things at some point or other.  But for most of my life they were scattered outliers.  They weren't the rule.

But today, I'm seeing them as the rule.  It is quite disheartening.  And my personal opinion is that we've gone into overdrive since the Bush vs. Gore election.  That was when the gas pedal was pushed to the floor.  And today I see the cliff coming up pretty fast.

I'll try to cheer myself up with something not so doomsday-ish.  Perhaps some light reading like The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.  It is so much fun.  The preface alone took a whole 15 minutes to get through.  I think it will be a while.

There's a meme you'll see online in which people try to explain that "1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual". 

It's similar to the meme about "today scientists announced they have officially invented the Torment Nexus from the book 'Don't Invent The Torment Nexus.'" 

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