Definition of Faith


Poseidon
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Some times we talk about faith in degrees, like saying faith is strong or weak, other times we talk of faith in absolute terms, like saying faith cannot exist in the same mind at the same time. These seem mutually exclusive. Is faith something that you have in degrees, or is it something you either have or don't have? If it exists in degrees, how do you measure it? How do you distinguish strong faith vs weak faith? 

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17 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Some times we talk about faith in degrees, like saying faith is strong or weak, other times we talk of faith in absolute terms, like saying faith cannot exist in the same mind at the same time. These seem mutually exclusive. Is faith something that you have in degrees, or is it something you either have or don't have? If it exists in degrees, how do you measure it? How do you distinguish strong faith vs weak faith? 

Great question, and something to really think about. We all learn line upon line and grace for grace. In that sense, our faith can grow or our faith can diminish. In all the experiences in our scripture the story that always draws my attention for this type of question is the Lord, the apostles, the boat, and a storm.

In light of their fear, and we could easily justify the "fear" of a raging storm, the Lord said the following, "O ye of little faith." And this wasn't the only time the Lord said these words to his disciples.

If we can have little faith, then we can have more faith than just a little.

Strong faith vs weak faith is often discovered in our trials and temptations. No matter the temptation or trial the Lord remained faithful to his purpose -- the will of the Father. In some experiences we can see where our faith is stronger and in other experiences we can see where our faith is weak.

The Lord has said, if miracles have ceased then faith has ceased. That is probably another good indicator of strong or weak, little or a lot of faith.

Edited by Anddenex
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7 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Some times we talk about faith in degrees, like saying faith is strong or weak, other times we talk of faith in absolute terms, like saying faith cannot exist in the same mind at the same time. These seem mutually exclusive. Is faith something that you have in degrees, or is it something you either have or don't have? If it exists in degrees, how do you measure it? How do you distinguish strong faith vs weak faith? 

It depends. Degree ("particle" or "great") has nothing to do with whether it exists or not. A particle of faith in one thing might be insufficient or sufficient to overcome doubt in another thing (and vice-versa). But faith and doubt cannot share blended qualia, so the one experiencing these alternating forces in the decision-making mental state will vacillate until he acts. Alma 32 speaks of applying faith to attain knowledge of specific things, which are innumerable.

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16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Alma 32 speaks of applying faith to attain knowledge of specific things, which are innumerable.

Would that imply that the strength of one's faith is determined by the number of principles of which he's gained a testimony? 

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46 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Some times we talk about faith in degrees, like saying faith is strong or weak, other times we talk of faith in absolute terms, like saying faith cannot exist in the same mind at the same time. These seem mutually exclusive. Is faith something that you have in degrees, or is it something you either have or don't have? If it exists in degrees, how do you measure it? How do you distinguish strong faith vs weak faith? 

It exists in degrees because "faith" isn't a thing in and of it's self. If someone says, out of the blue, "I have faith" wouldn't the obvious question be, "In what?" Without the in what the comment is kind of meaningless. You have to be having faith IN something. And since "somethings" are, by nature, degrees, then faith has to exist in degrees. "My trust goes this far, but only this far, and no further." Like someone who has faith that paying their tithing will bring blessings, but can't get on board if polygamy came back. Degrees. Or even within tithing... believing that paying tithing will keep you in good standing in the church but not trusting that you'll be okay financially in doing so. Faith in one thing, not in the other. Degrees.

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18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

FWIW, I have never accepted the idea that faith and doubt cannot co-exist.

“Where doubt and uncertainty is, there faith is not, nor can it be. For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time.” Joseph Smith, “Lectures on Faith,” Lecture 6, Para. 12.  

 

“Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.” Thomas S. Monson, “Be an Example and a Light,” General Conference October 2015.

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26 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

“Where doubt and uncertainty is, there faith is not, nor can it be. For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time.” Joseph Smith, “Lectures on Faith,” Lecture 6, Para. 12.  

 

“Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.” Thomas S. Monson, “Be an Example and a Light,” General Conference October 2015.

I am well aware of the quotes.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

FWIW, I have never accepted the idea that faith and doubt cannot co-exist.

I absolutely agree with you, 100%. 
 

The apostle Hugh Brown wrote a beautiful letter to a woman who was struggling with doubt. 
 

https://thirdhour.org/blog/top-articles/never-seen-letter-doubt-hugh-b-brown/

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It is my measured opinion that doubt is a natural thing (call it the natural man, but still...natural). Faith is NOT natural. Faith is a choice. Faith is an action. Faith is commitment.

I think a better way to express it would be to say that faith dispels doubt. As we learn in Alma, you exercise faith which causes the seed (the word) you planted to grow. And after it grows, then you no longer doubt. But the seed has to grow first by nourishment and effort. But as Alma says, once it's grown and you taste the fruit of your labors, faith becomes dormant. So you don't need the faith once the doubt it dispelled.

In point of fact, I've sometimes thought that doubt is required for faith. With no doubt there's no need for faith.

But it's really a definitional (semantic) issue. I allow for the reality that we mean different things when we talk about faith.

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I think the general idea behind faith and doubt not coexisting is simply that with doubt you don't act and with faith you do. It's not so much an all or nothing thing as it is either or. So to that extent they cannot coexist because either you acted or you didn't.

Now this obviously does not mean you only have faith in everything or nothing. Rather, line upon line and precept by precept we can exercise faith in each line and precept. With each line and precept our belief can increase and our testimony can grow stronger but our faith is measured simply by did we act or not.

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But it's really a definitional (semantic) issue. I allow for the reality that we mean different things when we talk about faith.

Elder Bednar addressed this very issue during a Q&A at a fireside (if I remember correctly).  I'm afraid I can't find a link to it on the Church website.  It is semantics.

Quote

1. To waver or fluctuate in opinion; to hesitate; to be in suspense; to be in uncertainty; to be in suspense; to be undetermined. 

Even in matters divine, concerning some things, we may lawfully doubt and suspend our judgment.

2. To fear; to be apprehensive; to suspect; to distrust.

  -- Webster's Dictionary

Elder Bednar defined it with Def #2 above.  But we often think of Def #1 above.  He did not state, but did allude to definition #1 being perfectly natural (as you describe).  And it is an essential part of discovery toward real belief/faith/testimony.

But when the doubt takes on the characteristics of #2 as we apply it to our belief in God (etc) it can be damaging.  And with that "suspicion/distrust", I'm not seeing how faith can abide in the same mind.

Edited by Carborendum
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11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Perhaps you care to expound on what you mean.

You can have faith in some points and have doubts in others, but faith and doubt are distinct subjective, conscious experiences that cannot be combined. E.g., you cannot simultaneously have faith in baptism as an ordinance of the Gospel and doubt it as an ordinance.

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11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You can have faith in some points and have doubts in others, but faith and doubt are distinct subjective, conscious experiences that cannot be combined. E.g., you cannot simultaneously have faith in baptism as an ordinance of the Gospel and doubt it as an ordinance.

I'm not sure I agree with this. As I said, it's a matter of how one defines things...but, as I've also stated, I almost tend to think that doubt is requisite to faith.

People tend to define faith as equivalent to belief. I don't. I think belief is it's own principle, separate from faith. If one is thinking of faith that way then it makes some sense that you cannot both believe and disbelieve something at the same time. But if, as I do, you think of faith as commitment to something, then you surely CAN remain committed to something that you doubt. Not only do I believe this, but I believe the understanding of it is crucial as a solution to all the so-called faith-crises people struggle with. When someone comes across, for example, some disturbing piece of information about Joseph Smith they were not previous aware of, they can still, consciously, actively, and proactively remain committed to their testimony of him, even while going through some cognitive dissonance that introduces logical doubt into their minds. 

I believe a person can struggle with doubt in something or another, like say baptism, but still choose to exercise faith by acting. As in...I'm not sure...but I'm going to commit anyhow. Is not doing such a thing an obvious act of faith? Clearly if one fully doubts (straight up disbelieves) in something they are unlikely to commit. But the idea that we have to fully believe in something before we can act in faith does not resonate with me. We can have nothing more than the desire to believe, and still act in faith. I mean that's what the whole trial of faith idea means to me. We try out obedience and action and commitment despite not being sure. And by doing so, we are rewarded and our understanding and joy is increase. That's the whole point of having faith, isn't it?

The dynamic that suggests we have to believe with no doubt or we cannot exercise faith strikes me a pretty discouraging approach.

We will all have our faith tried. Whether we choose...and it is a choice...to respond to the doubt with faith or not is key, imo. But to think that when we have doubt it means we've somehow lost faith...well in my personal experience I know that to be untrue. I've had doubts creep up here and there. That's not always a choice. It happens. But the faith I exert is a choice. Full stop.

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9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. As I said, it's a matter of how one defines things...but, as I've also stated, I almost tend to think that doubt is requisite to faith.

People tend to define faith as equivalent to belief. I don't. I think belief is it's own principle, separate from faith. If one is thinking of faith that way then it makes some sense that you cannot both believe and disbelieve something at the same time. But if, as I do, you think of faith as commitment to something, then you surely CAN remain committed to something that you doubt. Not only do I believe this, but I believe the understanding of it is crucial as a solution to all the so-called faith-crises people struggle with. When someone comes across, for example, some disturbing piece of information about Joseph Smith they were not previous aware of, they can still, consciously, actively, and proactively remain committed to their testimony of him, even while going through some cognitive dissonance that introduces logical doubt into their minds. 

I believe a person can struggle with doubt in something or another, like say baptism, but still choose to exercise faith by acting. As in...I'm not sure...but I'm going to commit anyhow. Is not doing such a thing an obvious act of faith? Clearly if one fully doubts (straight up disbelieves) in something they are unlikely to commit. But the idea that we have to fully believe in something before we can act in faith does not resonate with me. We can have nothing more than the desire to believe, and still act in faith. I mean that's what the whole trial of faith idea means to me. We try out obedience and action and commitment despite not being sure. And by doing so, we are rewarded and our understanding and joy is increase. That's the whole point of having faith, isn't it?

The dynamic that suggests we have to believe with no doubt or we cannot exercise faith strikes me a pretty discouraging approach.

We will all have our faith tried. Whether we choose...and it is a choice...to respond to the doubt with faith or not is key, imo. But to think that when we have doubt it means we've somehow lost faith...well in my personal experience I know that to be untrue. I've had doubts creep up here and there. That's not always a choice. It happens. But the faith I exert is a choice. Full stop.

Yes, it is always a matter of semantics, and of the "kinds" of faith and doubt, and on what "kinds" of spiritual and intellectual points... and it is not uncommon for people to vacillate between which kind is more important for any number of reasons.

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