Helaman 12:4


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Helaman 12:4

O how afoolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how bquick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their chearts upon the vain things of the world[MS1] !

 

I think this description applies reasonably well to the Nephites, particularly during the reign of the judges. I think it applies, but not as well, to people in general. But if that is true, it could suggest a design fault, ie, that the propensity of men to be how they are described in this verse might be a result of how mankind has been created. What is it about men and their agency that so consistently leads them to act in this manner and could they have been designed, with their agency intact, in such a way that they did not so consistently act in this manner? If it is a natural and innate part of man’s nature to act in this way, perhaps there is something wrong with how man has been designed. It is not hard to imagine a man whose natural inclination is to serve God but we don’t seem to have been designed in that way.

I wrote the above notes a short time ago while doing my scripture reading this morning. If verse 4 is true, it would add support to the idea that the children of men have been created in such a way that their natural tendency is to be foolish, vain, evil and devilish, and quick to do iniquity. If that is the case, would that be by design and if so, what are the likely benefits of that particular design feature? I'm inclined to think of it as a design fault but I know that there are no faults in the works of God so there must be some other explanation.


 

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Helaman 12:4

O how afoolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how bquick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their chearts upon the vain things of the world[MS1] !

 

I think this description applies reasonably well to the Nephites, particularly during the reign of the judges. I think it applies, but not as well, to people in general. But if that is true, it could suggest a design fault, ie, that the propensity of men to be how they are described in this verse might be a result of how mankind has been created. What is it about men and their agency that so consistently leads them to act in this manner and could they have been designed, with their agency intact, in such a way that they did not so consistently act in this manner? If it is a natural and innate part of man’s nature to act in this way, perhaps there is something wrong with how man has been designed. It is not hard to imagine a man whose natural inclination is to serve God but we don’t seem to have been designed in that way.

I wrote the above notes a short time ago while doing my scripture reading this morning. If verse 4 is true, it would add support to the idea that the children of men have been created in such a way that their natural tendency is to be foolish, vain, evil and devilish, and quick to do iniquity. If that is the case, would that be by design and if so, what are the likely benefits of that particular design feature? I'm inclined to think of it as a design fault but I know that there are no faults in the works of God so there must be some other explanation.


 

I use Abraham 3:19 as a key to several questions arising from this description of "the children of men."

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all.

Th children of God have no design flaws. They are designed to progress to godhood and exaltation, as described in the rest of that chapter. Agency is a factor, but once in this mortal life, on this side of the veil, none have the requisite intelligence to act any better, the only exception is Christ. And through His Atonement, we can repent and choose to progress as originally designed.

The rest of Helaman describes the Lord's power, and leads us to the thought in verses 23 and 24:

23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved.

24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for agrace, according to their works.

This is the fulfillment of the underlying design, the Lord's will, but yes, we can choose otherwise.

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"What is it about men and their agency that so consistently leads them to act in this manner...?" They are simply less intelligent than Christ, the only one who would not act in this manner.

"...what are the likely benefits of that particular design feature?" We are designed to progress, from whatever level of intelligence from which we begin, through the merits of Christ. I like the phrase in verse 22, "among all these there were many of the noble and great ones" because it indicates that not all the noble and great ones had yet arrived at this level of goodness to rule but would yet arrive in due course.

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Mosiah 3: 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

I like how in Helaman 12:13-14  Nephi the son of Heleman laments that men are disobedient.  And makes the comparison the the Earth obeys God, yet we do not.

Also note 2 Ne 2: 14

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

The elements can be acted upon.

Man can act of himself.

Man has the the capacity to choose.  He can

1) Act poorly and devilish

2) Dwell in inaction

3) Act goodly, heroic, & honorably

4) Usually a combination of the above 3.

 

I believe that God created us so that some of us will rise above the dirt and become submissive and eventually profitable servants.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I like how in Helaman 12:13-14  Nephi the son of Heleman laments that men are disobedient.  And makes the comparison the the Earth obeys God, yet we do not.

I also made a note about this in my scripture study this morning. I don't think Nephi was comparing apples with apples when he made this comparison. One possibility that could explain the Earth's greater responsiveness to God's will could be that perhaps its agency is not as great as mans. It might have a lesser ability to choose.

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12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Mosiah 3: 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

I like how in Helaman 12:13-14  Nephi the son of Heleman laments that men are disobedient.  And makes the comparison the the Earth obeys God, yet we do not.

Also note 2 Ne 2: 14

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

The elements can be acted upon.

Man can act of himself.

Man has the the capacity to choose.  He can

1) Act poorly and devilish

2) Dwell in inaction

3) Act goodly, heroic, & honorably

4) Usually a combination of the above 3.

 

I believe that God created us so that some of us will rise above the dirt and become submissive and eventually profitable servants.

 

 

I find the difference is that the earth and the dust thereof are not in a carnal state (Mosiah 4: 2) and align with the Lord’s will for them. He uses the dust to create us (Mosiah 2:25-26), and then gives us our agency to do what we will while we are connected with it (D&C 93:33), though it continues to belong to Him. Hence the great sin in our misuse of the dust of the earth concerning our own bodies, those of others, our material stewardships, and all other physical matters that are found in this second estate.

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The creation began with Adam and Eve as perfect and immortal. They were "innocent" with a capacity to choose between two fruits (according to what we now have scripturally). That was the creation. The fall (is not a creation) resulted in our capacity to more fully choose between good and evil or spiritual and carnal -- to be carnally minded is death and to be spiritually minded is life eternal.

In contrast we have two different types of cities and results: Sodom and Gomorrah and the city of Enoch. Within each city we can see a civilization that followed the verse you have shared, and we also have the opposite. We have a city that was more inclined to follow and keep the commandments of God. If this was the absolute result, then the city of Enoch and other civilizations would have never reached this potential. This gives more evidence that we all have the "capacity" for good and evil, and depending on our upbringing, it will determine how quickly the adversary can tempt us to do evil. How carnal we are.

In light of this, I believe this is why the Lord makes it very clear regarding the sins of the children upon the parents if we as parents do not teach our children. In my youth, my earliest experiences were the desire to be good, not evil; however, in my youth (my teen years) I completely now understand the following words from the Brother of Jared, "because of the fall our natures have become evil continually."

Easy example, look at where we have come to in America within 20 years. The more "evil" is recognized as "good" the more we will see of that evil, because to be spiritually minded requires faith in something that is true, something that has substance, but is not seen. The natural man relies on the five senses, and this is why the natural man is more inclined to be devilish, foolish, vain, and evil. The natural man becomes a law unto him/herself, while the spiritual man recognizes his/her dependence upon God to overcome the natural man, or the natural man tendencies -- as a result of the fall.

Easy example, despite Jonah's awareness of God's command he still disobeyed. Despite the clear answer of "No" Joseph Smith still delivered the 116 pages which were ultimately lost. The natural man deals solely with the here and now (Telestial choices), while the spiritual man requires faith for the here, now, and the future (Celestial choices)

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In this life our spirits are bound to fallen bodies which have tremendous influence over our spirits. In some instances the influence is so great that we label such individuals as non-accountable. But for the rest of us we experience this influence in differing degrees based on our physical, mental, psychological, and emotional makeup, as well as our circumstances. I have often wondered what the real me is like, without all of this foreign and often negative influence. 

I don't point this out to imply that we are not responsible for our choices because we are. But I've learned, as I imagine all of us have, that we all have both a Dr Jekyll and a Mr Hyde in us. I know that when put under enough stress for a long enough period of time that I will start to feel things and react in ways that I wouldn't normally. So which is the real me? The person who normally gets along with everyone or the one that has to constantly keep himself from lashing out? How was I as a spirit being before this life?

Of course even in the premortal world we were capable of great good and great evil, so we can't blame everything on this fallen world. But I am prone to believe that most people would probably be better than they are had there circumstances in mortality been more ideal than they were. 

So in short, I don't know where we can draw the line between who we really are as individuals and who we are when shackled to Mr Hyde.

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