There seems to be the beginnings of a crackdown at BYU . . .


Just_A_Guy
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6 hours ago, Vort said:

Encouraging!

Indeed.

I don't want to be known as one of those members who says or thinks that the brethren aren't aware of issues taking place in the world, because they are very well informed in multiple comings and goings worldwide, and even in the loop with things like pop culture. I do feel however that they may have been lax in truly monitoring the goings on at BYU over the past few years; perhaps thinking that it was okay to not micromanage, and just get the usual reports from BYU admin and the church board of education and whatnot. Because, well, it is BYU after all, right? Plus, they are very busy, and also want to give others the opportunity to lead. Do I really know what went on in those meetings...of course not. But I do know that many, many LDS parents wrote very angry letters to church headquarters over what their children were being taught. From what I saw coming out of BYU the past 4-5 years, it was discouraging to say the least, and I would not have encouraged my children to attend there the way I would have in years past. That school should clearly be seen as different, and stand as a beacon for those wanting a place of learning that also adheres to the Lord's principles and standards. If the far left crowd doesn't like it, they can pound sand. There are thousands of other 4 year universities across the country that they can choose from, with close to a dozen based in Utah alone, not to mention the thousands of additional 2 year and vocational schools.

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8 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Ecclesiastical Clearance Office sounds like a wonderful department.

Godspeed.

Difficult to read between the lines from this article that is supporting ‘Academic Freedom’

What is academic freedom anyway?

Freedom to be apostate?

Im with Mr. Incredible.

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Slightly off topic, but I can't begin to tell you how bad my grades were in math in middle and high school because they "wanted me to show my work". I could understand the concept and solve the problems, but the way they wanted me to do it didn't make sense...and still doesn't. I liked doing it my way (the easy way) and got marked down for it even though I got the right answer. It was very discouraging and stressful for a young kid to be forced to take a long and winding road when an easy shortcut (without the need of graphing T83 calculators) is always available in my head with the use of basic arithmetic.

Hard times. - 9GAG

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Indeed.

I don't want to be known as one of those members who says or thinks that the brethren aren't aware of issues taking place in the world, because they are very well informed in multiple comings and goings worldwide, and even in the loop with things like pop culture. I do feel however that they may have been lax in truly monitoring the goings on at BYU over the past few years; perhaps thinking that it was okay to not micromanage, and just get the usual reports from BYU admin and the church board of education and whatnot.

Do you recall Cecilia Konchar Farr?  It has been 30 years, and they have been doing precision strikes that many don't see as enough.

The Lord usually gives His people ample rope before carpet bombing.

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I hope that we are planning to lose accreditation.  

Compromise is good in many settings but not the gospel.

BYU grads are highly desirable in the business world.  And its not because the school is accredited.  

My daughter just got a job from a fortune 500 company wherein she does background checks on persons / companies wishing to borrow large sums of dollars.  And she has a BYU communications degree with no emphasis on finance.

The FBI loves to recruit Latter Day Saints.

Id rather send the rest of my children to an unaccredited BYU.

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3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

BYU grads are highly desirable in the business world.  And its not because the school is accredited.  

I think you'd be surprised at how quickly Saints would lose the ability to find work if their resume states that they got their degree from an unaccredited school.

I don't know what things are required for business.  But lots of professions have a requirement that the employee must have a degree from an accredited school.  As an engineer, I can't get even get a license (in the traditional way) without a degree from an accredited school.

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Slightly off topic, but I can't begin to tell you how bad my grades were in math in middle and high school because they "wanted me to show my work". I could understand the concept and solve the problems, but the way they wanted me to do it didn't make sense...and still doesn't. I liked doing it my way (the easy way) and got marked down for it even though I got the right answer. It was very discouraging and stressful for a young kid to be forced to take a long and winding road when an easy shortcut (without the need of graphing T83 calculators) is always available in my head with the use of basic arithmetic.

The reason they wanted you to show your work is that schools are meant to make either Factory workers (who are almost encouraged to dislike math) or STEM workers (who must always show their work to others, otherwise their work is not approved.

Any other field, yeah, pretty much, not necessary.

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think you'd be surprised at how quickly Saints would lose the ability to find work if their resume states that they got their degree from an unaccredited school.

I don't know what things are required for business.  But lots of professions have a requirement that the employee must have a degree from an accredited school.  As an engineer, I can't get even get a license (in the traditional way) without a degree from an accredited school.

We just need to have a new accreditation board.  Maybe with Noter Dame and the military academies.  Any school that has members willing to espouse honor and personal integrity.

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50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you recall Cecilia Konchar Farr?  It has been 30 years, and they have been doing precision strikes that many don't see as enough.

The Lord usually gives His people ample rope before carpet bombing.

Actually I had never heard of her. A brief search just shows she is another early SJW type feminist that was let go for statements on abortion that go against church teachings.

I'm sure there is much more to her case than that, as well as the after effects, but I have always found people like that just silly and insecure with themselves. If I was a professor teaching at Notre Dame for example, I would know better than to viscously attack the Catholic Church while employed there. Some folks just seem to feel that they are more important than the establishment, and probably go into these positions with the intent to stir the pot for "their cause". 

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Actually I had never heard of her. A brief search just shows she is another early SJW type feminist that was let go for statements on abortion that go against church teachings.

I'm sure there is much more to her case than that, as well as the after effects, but I have always found people like that just silly and insecure with themselves. If I was a professor teaching at Notre Dame for example, I would know better than to viscously attack the Catholic Church while employed there. Some folks just seem to feel that they are more important than the establishment, and probably go into these positions with the intent to stir the pot for "their cause". 

The reason she was let go was that she was an Ashera Worshiper. 

Her defense was that she never encouraged, taught, or advocated for others to do so.  She only gave people "materials which showed what the Brethren have said" on the topic.  None of the public got to see what she actually shared.  But the understanding was that she handed off very biased information to students on the topic.  So, yeah, she was encouraging them.

Prior to being fired, she didn't actually attack the Church publicly.  She was just not shy about praying to Heavenly Mother and would openly admit to doing so.  She also secretly collected a group of her followers to go on protest.  "Hey-hey. Ho-ho. Don't let Cecelia go" was the battle cry.  ~Very original~.  After she was fired, she played the victim very well.  Apparently, she's still a member of the Church.

The point is that she was an early one that got fired.  So, the Church is aware of people doing things at BYU.  It is just a matter of how far the let it go before they take action, and just how far is the church's action going to be?  That judgment, I leave to the Lord.

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2 hours ago, mikbone said:

We just need to have a new accreditation board.  Maybe with Noter Dame and the military academies.  Any school that has members willing to espouse honor and personal integrity.

A "new" board.  That's quite the uphill battle.  If you can do it and make it work, great.  I'm just not all that confident that it would be possible or effective.

And, the military academies are run by government.  They won't participate.  I don't know how much Notre Dame is fighting this either.  They may be on our side, overall.  But I don't know what they've actually been doing about it.   Then again, I haven't looked that up.

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I think you'd be surprised at how quickly Saints would lose the ability to find work if their resume states that they got their degree from an unaccredited school.

FWIW, in my opinion, I don't believe this is true. Only in certain industries, but there are plenty others where this doesn't matter so much. Certain jobs, sure. But just "finding work" (and well paying work). Nah. Don't agree.

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Holy mackerel; how did I miss this when it first came out?

The church was clearly trying to clean house under the table to keep it from becoming a huge scandal. Way to go. You just outed them. ;)

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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

FWIW, in my opinion, I don't believe this is true. Only in certain industries, but there are plenty others where this doesn't matter so much. Certain jobs, sure. But just "finding work" (and well paying work). Nah. Don't agree.

I agree.  I think the only question is "in how many professions will it be an issue?"  I haven't actually counted them, so I have no statistical idea.  I'm just acutely aware of how it would affect engineers like me. 

I have to keep reminding myself that Houston is not like the rest of the country.  I get a certain impression based on the five states in which I've worked as a primary base of operations.  Everywhere else, they say I'm the only engineer they know.  But here, they assume I'm an engineer before I even get two sentences out.

Houston has an exceptionally high percentage of people working in professions that require accredited degrees.  Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, many computer geeks (certainly not all, especially outside of Houston) are all very common here.  And I recently found out that HR specialists also need accredited degrees.  Apparently, knowing a lot of the regulations regarding employment requires a degree.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I agree.  I think the only question is "in how many professions will it be an issue?"  I haven't actually counted them, so I have no statistical idea.  I'm just acutely aware of how it would affect engineers like me. 

I have to keep reminding myself that Houston is not like the rest of the country.  I get a certain impression based on the five states in which I've worked as a primary base of operations.  Everywhere else, they say I'm the only engineer they know.  But here, they assume I'm an engineer before I even get two sentences out.

Houston has an exceptionally high percentage of people working in professions that require accredited degrees.  Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, many computer geeks (certainly not all, especially outside of Houston) are all very common here.  And I recently found out that HR specialists also need accredited degrees.  Apparently, knowing a lot of the regulations regarding employment requires a degree.

Yeah, there are certain degrees that should, indeed, require accredited college degrees. Engineers and doctors are two obvious ones.

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yeah, there are certain degrees that should, indeed, require accredited college degrees. Engineers and doctors are two obvious ones.

I work in healthcare and agree 100%.

What concerns me moving forward (and right now to an extent) is who is doing the accrediting?  How can those groups or organizations be trusted to have the public's best interests at heart?  And, who decides what "best interests" are?  Is it competence...or having a high ESG score?  I know that's an extreme and glass half full view, but as the world gets ever closer to the Lord's second coming, I can't help but find myself becoming more and more skeptical of the real motives around me.

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59 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The reason she was let go was that she was an Ashera Worshiper. 

It was more than that.

My wife who graduated from J Ruben Clark Law School was involved with the incident.

CKF was the academic advisor for the VOICE BYU branch.

My wife noticed that VOICE had taken out an ad in the Daily Universe inviting BYU students to a meeting that taught how to use home abortion kits.

She spent a day in the law school frantically trying to get her professors to recognize the harm in the advertisement.  Finally she found an advocate who got her in touch with Bruce Hafen the Provost.  

From that meeting she was then scheduled to see Rex E. Lee.  Boyd K Packer was notified by phone and things then moved very rapidly.

Edited by mikbone
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

The reason she was let go was that she was an Ashera Worshiper.

NEWS FLASH: All the "we-must-pray-to-Mother-in-Heaven" types are Ashera worshipers. It has become a real problem in the Church. Holding our tongues and trying to be loving instead of simply correcting the false doctrine immediately and unambiguously has, in my estimation, worsened the problem.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

A "new" board.  That's quite the uphill battle.  If you can do it and make it work, great.  I'm just not all that confident that it would be possible or effective.

And, the military academies are run by government.  They won't participate.  I don't know how much Notre Dame is fighting this either.  They may be on our side, overall.  But I don't know what they've actually been doing about it.   Then again, I haven't looked that up.

Im a board certified surgeon.  I have so much accreditation its crazy.  I also know a bunch of board certified surgeons that I wouldn't let cut my steak.  Dont even think about family or friends...

There are many surgical and medical specialities that are fed up with their boards and are now seeking alternate sorces of accreditation.

If we do the right thing we will be blessed.

Successful, educated, and skilled workers will always be in demand.

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