Struggling with LGBT


mikbone
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I think of myself as 100% Male / Masculine and have always been attracted to Female / Feminine women.

I’m not homophobic which is a terrible word because it literally means fear of homosexuality when the agreed upon definition is having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

I work with gay people and have no issues interacting with LGBT identifiers as long as they don’t try to make me accept their lifestyle and conform to their ideas.

On the other hand, I am uncomfortable when around men or boys that act as if they are women or girls.  Girl tomboys don’t bother me at all.  But butch women make me uncomfortable as well.  Always have.

When I grew up, there were a few boys that acted feminine and they were ostracized.  I never did anything to make them feel unwanted or accepted.  I was busy during my youth and was just doing my thing.  I’ve always been a bit of an introvert.

Anyways, because I am a busy surgeon I have let my wife plan our children activities.  She loves the arts and has our children enrolled in ballet, musicals, choir etc.  I never go to the practice sessions but I do attend the performances, recitals, etc.

Ballerinas are great.  But I have noticed that there are many boys in ballet that are feminine.  It still makes me uncomfortable, but there no longer seems to be any ostracization.

One of my daughters was dating a boy @ BYU and when we met him I was confused.  His grasp on masculinity was weak.  He was very friendly and I interacted with him cordially for the sake of my daughter and wife, but when they broke up I was greatly relieved.

After the breakup I teased her and questioned her acceptance of his request for a date.  She then related that there are many boys @ BYU whose manhood is questionable.  A few of whom were accepted in her circle of friends.  BTW - she is now married to a young man that I am proud to call my son-in-law.

Years ago my wife and children supported a local LDS boy who had a love of theatre and produced local plays that were well received.  When I met him I was uncomfortable.  He is @ BYU and will be going to Nicaragua on his mission.  I am weary of his future.

When I hear stories of LDS boys that always knew they were gay but went on a mission and were sealed in the temple with their best friend and then had 2-3 children before they finally stopped lying to themselves got a divorce and then publicly declared their separation from the church and embracement of gay lifestyle, I get irritated and terribly saddened for the wife and children of that union.  Despite all the heroic commentaries and love emojis found on social media supporting his ‘brave’ decision.

There have been fathers in my local wards that make me uncomfortable.

When the recent BYU valedictorian decided to profess his gay lifestyle during his graduation speech, it irritated me greatly.

My question is this.  Are the younger / upcoming generations more accepting of LGBT lifestyles and is this good?  Should we teach our children to be more discriminating?

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Guest Godless
31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Anyways, because I am a busy surgeon I have let my wife plan our children activities.  She loves the arts and has our children enrolled in ballet, musicals, choir etc.  I never go to the practice sessions but I do attend the performances, recitals, etc.

Ballerinas are great.  But I have noticed that there are many boys in ballet that are feminine.  It still makes me uncomfortable, but there no longer seems to be any ostracization.

What are your thoughts on women who are mechanics, construction workers, or commercial cooks? These are all fields that are typically dominated by strong male workers. Would a woman in these professions bother you? If the answer is no, then it may be useful to consider why men in traditionally feminine roles bothers you. There may be a double standard that needs to be examined.

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

One of my daughters was dating a boy @ BYU and when we met him I was confused.  His grasp on masculinity was weak

How so? I'm just trying to understand your idea of masculine and feminine. 

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

After the breakup I teased her and questioned her acceptance of his request for a date.  She then related that there are many boys @ BYU whose manhood is questionable.  

Again, I'm curious how this is being established.

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

My question is this.  Are the younger / upcoming generations more accepting of LGBT lifestyles

Generally, it seems so. There's also an increasing blur in gender roles. It's becoming less stigmatized for straight men to be ballerinas and flight attendants and straight women to be mechanics and construction workers. That's why I'm curious how you're defining things like "manhood" and "masculinity". Being effeminate isn't the same as being gay, and there are plenty of gay men out there who very much embody the traditional archetypes of masculinity.

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

and is this good? 

I'm sure this will shock no one, but my answer is yes. LGBTQ people have always existed in our society. It's only been in the last two or three decades that they've started to feel safe being open about their sexual identity. Whether you think their romantic life choices are moral or not, I think it's definitely good to support people being their authentic selves rather than encouraging them to repress it. For better or worse, the current state of human sexuality and gender isn't going anywhere. I'm not saying you need to embrace or endorse it, but trying to understand it could be very helpful. 

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2 minutes ago, Godless said:

Whether you think their romantic life choices are moral or not, I think it's definitely good to support people being their authentic selves rather than encouraging them to repress it.

I do.  That is why I get so disturbed when effeminate boys go on missions and get married in the temple.

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13 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’m with @Godless. Can a guy be into the arts or is that not “masculine”?

Absolutely.  

I guess effeminate men are like pornography.  You know it when you see it.

Women can be strong and successful in historically masculine jobs and still be feminine.

Men can also be actors, ballet dancers, singers, nurses etc…  And still be masculine.

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Just now, mikbone said:

Absolutely.  

I guess effeminate men are like pornography.  You know it when you see it.

Women can be strong and successful in historically masculine jobs and still be feminine.

Men can also be actors, ballet dancers, singers, nurses etc…  And still be masculine.

Ahh. Okay thanks. 

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35 minutes ago, Godless said:

What are your thoughts on women who are mechanics, construction workers, or commercial cooks? These are all fields that are typically dominated by strong male workers. Would a woman in these professions bother you? If the answer is no, then it may be useful to consider why men in traditionally feminine roles bothers you. There may be a double standard that needs to be examined.

I know several couples that are... Backwards. One is the artsy guy who ran the piano store. Knew him for two decades. He was rather... Non-masculine. His wife was a mechanic. 

Another is a school friend, who is also a mechanic. All through school, she wore boy clothes. Boy haircut. Joined the military after graduation.

Married some guy, has kids, is super-mom, baby addict. Still wears men's clothing.

I have little concern myself with gender roles. I see what OP is getting at, but I rarely worry about a career choice.

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8 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Absolutely.  

I guess effeminate men are like pornography.  You know it when you see it.

Women can be strong and successful in historically masculine jobs and still be feminine.

Men can also be actors, ballet dancers, singers, nurses etc…  And still be masculine.

Well phrased.

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5 minutes ago, Backroads said:

know several couples that are... Backwards. One is the artsy guy who ran the piano store. Knew him for two decades. He was rather... Non-masculine. His wife was a mechanic. 

Another is a school friend, who is also a mechanic. All through school, she wore boy clothes. Boy haircut. Joined the military after graduation.

Married some guy, has kids, is super-mom, baby addict. Still wears men's clothing.

I have little concern myself with gender roles. I see what OP is getting at, but I rarely worry about a career choice.

The situations like you described are getting more and normal, and thank God for it.

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12 hours ago, mikbone said:

I think of myself as 100% Male / Masculine and have always been attracted to Female / Feminine women.

I’m not homophobic which is a terrible word because it literally means fear of homosexuality when the agreed upon definition is having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

I work with gay people and have no issues interacting with LGBT identifiers as long as they don’t try to make me accept their lifestyle and conform to their ideas.

On the other hand, I am uncomfortable when around men or boys that act as if they are women or girls.  Girl tomboys don’t bother me at all.  But butch women make me uncomfortable as well.  Always have.

When I grew up, there were a few boys that acted feminine and they were ostracized.  I never did anything to make them feel unwanted or accepted.  I was busy during my youth and was just doing my thing.  I’ve always been a bit of an introvert.

Anyways, because I am a busy surgeon I have let my wife plan our children activities.  She loves the arts and has our children enrolled in ballet, musicals, choir etc.  I never go to the practice sessions but I do attend the performances, recitals, etc.

Ballerinas are great.  But I have noticed that there are many boys in ballet that are feminine.  It still makes me uncomfortable, but there no longer seems to be any ostracization.

One of my daughters was dating a boy @ BYU and when we met him I was confused.  His grasp on masculinity was weak.  He was very friendly and I interacted with him cordially for the sake of my daughter and wife, but when they broke up I was greatly relieved.

After the breakup I teased her and questioned her acceptance of his request for a date.  She then related that there are many boys @ BYU whose manhood is questionable.  A few of whom were accepted in her circle of friends.  BTW - she is now married to a young man that I am proud to call my son-in-law.

Years ago my wife and children supported a local LDS boy who had a love of theatre and produced local plays that were well received.  When I met him I was uncomfortable.  He is @ BYU and will be going to Nicaragua on his mission.  I am weary of his future.

When I hear stories of LDS boys that always knew they were gay but went on a mission and were sealed in the temple with their best friend and then had 2-3 children before they finally stopped lying to themselves got a divorce and then publicly declared their separation from the church and embracement of gay lifestyle, I get irritated and terribly saddened for the wife and children of that union.  Despite all the heroic commentaries and love emojis found on social media supporting his ‘brave’ decision.

There have been fathers in my local wards that make me uncomfortable.

When the recent BYU valedictorian decided to profess his gay lifestyle during his graduation speech, it irritated me greatly.

 

This elicits a couple of offhand thoughts from me:

1)  Human sexuality seems chaotically complex, and I wouldn't presume to have a perfect knowledge of what causes it to present the way that it does in any particular person.  I will note, though, that being some form of LGBTQ often has other--for lack of a better word, comorbidities.  I don't deny that some people just find members of their own sex more attractive and may be genetically hard-wired to do that; but it also seems like in a huge number of cases life experience/trauma, social pressure, desire to be noticed, predilection for drama, contrarianism, etc. also seem to be present.  So frankly--and responding to some later points in this discussion--I don't really know what it means to be authentic in one's sexuality.  Does authentic mean, what my preference would be if my twin brother had a different sexual preference?  If I hadn't had that best friend in elementary school who treated me the way he did?  If my first hand-hold/kiss/sexual encounter had gone differently, or how it interacted with my religious upbringing and the faith crisis that I happened to be going through at the same time?  If I didn't fall in with that peer group that approached sexuality in a particular way?  If my relationship with my parents had been different? 

Or is "authentic" just newspeak for "whatever I want right now, I should get right now; and if what I want changes in the future I should automatically get that, too"?  

2)  A social worker colleague of mine (got his BS in the last 5 years, and he is very progressive) claims that "effeminate" behavior in a gay male is basically, at a subconscious level, a way of trying to identify other males whose sexual predilections match his own--in other words, he's (perhaps inadvertently) hitting on you; and this is supposedly the case for gay males from a very young age.  Now, I don't have the educational chops to know whether this is accurate or not.  But assuming, for a moment, that it is; and assuming that heterosexual males also pick up (perhaps subconsciously) on this sort of prepositioning: I think it's human nature to be repulsed by unwelcome sexual advances; and the less one is attracted to the initiator of the advance, the greater the feeling of revulsion will be.*  I'm not particularly bothered by "butch" women (and I apologize if that's now become a slur); other than being tempted to consider them mildly freakish and thus a little dopey (a temptation I struggle with for people with all manner of deviations from what I consider to be "normal").  But I know my wife is really creeped out by "butch" women.  

3)  I think that for LDS dads--especially of a more traditional bent--we want to know that our daughters are marrying provider-defender type guys who, if nothing else, are not going to be a burden to our loved ones or ourselves.  That doesn't necessarily mean these guys have to be alpha-males or whatever.  But a lot of the stereotypical characteristics of effeminate men tend to undermine their emotional stability, material self-sufficiency, and/or long-term relational success; and (speaking very generally here) I think it's right to see effeminacy as a bit of a relational red flag.

Quote

My question is this.  Are the younger / upcoming generations more accepting of LGBT lifestyles and is this good?  Should we teach our children to be more discriminating?

My answers to your first two questions are probably "yes", and then "no"; though I'd like to push back a bit and have you clarify what you mean by "accepting of LGBT lifestyles".  

My answer to your third question is:  I think we may be moving into a social milieu where it's less helpful to talk in general terms about "masculine" and "feminine", and more helpful to have detailed conversations about specific attributes that we think are desirable for friends generally and (where romantic relations are concerned) that tend to complement/mitigate the strengths and weaknesses of the other partner.  (Yeah, those virtues would still probably tend to fall under the umbrella of "traditionally masculine" or "traditionally feminine"--but there's been a lot of linguistic well-poisoning over the past few decades; and of course, not all "traditionally masculine" or "traditionally feminine" traits are necessary or even desirable in a friend/spouse anyways.)  We should absolutely  teach our children to be stringently, ridiculously, even unfairly discriminating when selecting a mate; and (to a lesser extent) when selecting our close friends as well.  
 

 

 

*Edited to add:  I should probably say the “it-goes-without-saying” part explicitly:  This does *not* mean that we are justified in treating effeminate men or “butch” women in a cruel or unChristlike way.  I’m just saying that the presence of these feelings, in and of themselves, doesn’t make one uniquely bad; it just means that we just have to work extra hard to channel/ control/ “repress” those feelings and make sure that our behavior reflects patience and charity and respect.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I'm not particularly bothered by "butch" women (and I apologize if that's now become a slur); other than being tempted to consider them mildly freakish and thus a little dopey (a temptation I struggle with for people with all manner of deviations from what I consider to be "normal").

Butch and femme (/fɛm/; French: [fam];[1][2]from French femme 'woman')[3] are terms used in the lesbian subculture[4] to ascribe or acknowledge a masculine (butch) or feminine(femme) identity with its associated traits, behaviors, styles, self-perception, and so on.[5][6] The terms were founded in lesbian 

Pasted directly from Wikipedia - I looked it up before using it to avoid hate speech.

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2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Ballerinas are great.  But I have noticed that there are many boys in ballet that are feminine.

2 hours ago, Godless said:

What are your thoughts on women who are mechanics, construction workers, or commercial cooks? These are all fields that are typically dominated by strong male workers. Would a woman in these professions bother you? If the answer is no, then it may be useful to consider why men in traditionally feminine roles bothers you. There may be a double standard that needs to be examined.

I thought mikbone was pretty clear that it is the effeminacy that bothers him, not the supposed tradition of ballet being a female and not a male endeavor (which is, of course, untrue, and has been false since ballet began).

2 hours ago, Godless said:

Whether you think their romantic life choices are moral or not, I think it's definitely good to support people being their authentic selves rather than encouraging them to repress it.

My authentic self would kill my neighbor to get access to his wife and plot overthrow of legitimate power. I think I've done pretty well reining in my supposedly authentic self. Ditto for all those whose authentic selves would marry children, steal resources, enslave others, etc.

One major purpose of any real religion is to help people be something much better than their so-called authentic selves.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This elicits a couple of offhand thoughts from me:

1)  Human sexuality seems chaotically complex, and I wouldn't presume to have a perfect knowledge of what causes it to present the way that it does in any particular person.  I will note, though, that being some form of LGBTQ often has other--for lack of a better word, comorbidities.  I don't deny that some people just find members of their own sex more attractive and may be genetically hard-wired to do that; but it also seems like in a huge number of cases life experience/trauma, social pressure, desire to be noticed, predilection for drama, contrarianism, etc. also seem to be present.  So frankly--and responding to some later points in this discussion--I don't really know what it means to be authentic in one's sexuality.  Does authentic mean, what my preference would be if my twin brother had a different sexual preference?  If I hadn't had that best friend in elementary school who treated me the way he did?  If my first hand-hold/kiss/sexual encounter had gone differently, or how it interacted with my religious upbringing and the faith crisis that I happened to be going through at the same time?  If I didn't fall in with that peer group that approached sexuality in a particular way?  If my relationship with my parents had been different? 

Or is "authentic" just newspeak for "whatever I want right now, I should get right now; and if what I want changes in the future I should automatically get that, too"?  

2)  A social worker colleague of mine (got his BS in the last 5 years, and he is very progressive) claims that "effeminate" behavior in a gay male is basically, at a subconscious level, a way of trying to identify other males whose sexual predilections match his own--in other words, he's (perhaps inadvertently) hitting on you; and this is supposedly the case for gay males from a very young age.  Now, I don't have the educational chops to know whether this is accurate or not.  But assuming, for a moment, that it is; and assuming that heterosexual males also pick up (perhaps subconsciously) on this sort of prepositioning: I think it's human nature to be repulsed by unwelcome sexual advances; and the less one is attracted to the initiator of the advance, the greater the feeling of revulsion will be.  I'm not particularly bothered by "butch" women (and I apologize if that's now become a slur); other than being tempted to consider them mildly freakish and thus a little dopey (a temptation I struggle with for people with all manner of deviations from what I consider to be "normal").  But I know my wife is really creeped out by "butch" women.  

3)  I think that for LDS dads--especially of a more traditional bent--we want to know that our daughters are marrying provider-defender type guys who, if nothing else, are not going to be a burden to our loved ones or ourselves.  That doesn't necessarily mean these guys have to be alpha-males or whatever.  But a lot of the stereotypical characteristics of effeminate men tend to undermine their emotional stability, material self-sufficiency, and/or long-term relational success; and (speaking very generally here) I think it's right to see effeminacy as a bit of a relational red flag.

My answers to your first two questions are probably "yes", and then "no"; though I'd like to push back a bit and have you clarify what you mean by "accepting of LGBT lifestyles".  

My answer to your third question is:  I think we may be moving into a social milieu where it's less helpful to talk in general terms about "masculine" and "feminine", and more helpful to have detailed conversations about specific attributes that we think are desirable for friends generally and (where romantic relations are concerned) that tend to complement/mitigate the strengths and weaknesses of the other partner.  (Yeah, those virtues would still probably tend to fall under the umbrella of "traditionally masculine" or "traditionally feminine"--but there's been a lot of linguistic well-poisoning over the past few decades; and of course, not all "traditionally masculine" or "traditionally feminine" traits are necessary or even desirable in a friend/spouse anyways.)  We should absolutely  teach our children to be stringently, ridiculously, even unfairly discriminating when selecting a mate; and (to a lesser extent) when selecting our close friends as well.  

In my next life, I'm going to be a lawyer so I can learn to think clearly and express myself precisely and concisely.

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Hmm.

This is interesting to think about and I'm not sure what to make of my thoughts. On the one hand, I understand what @mikbone is saying. On the other, I've known a few effeminate guys who, indeed, made me uncomfortable, but my sense of their effeminate nature that it was just that...just their nature. It wasn't a put on. It wasn't because they were "gay". Both men I'm thinking of were (and are, as far as I know) in really good relationships, married to women, with children, good fathers, active in the church with testimonies, etc.... Of course maybe they'll end up leaving all that for their "authentic" selves in the future...but that's not my sense. I don't believe either of them were effeminate because of their "sexuality". They just communicated in animated tones that come across as effeminate, and make similar hand gestures and movements. I honestly don't think that everyone who is like that harbors some underlying sexual issues. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. It does naturally make me uncomfortable too. But I put that aside in those cases.

Alternatively, I've known several men/boys who are perfectly masculine in their behavior, and then they "come out" and their behavior changes. Suddenly they start talking with a lisp and making limp-wristed gestures and the like. Their "authentic" selves my hat! It's so clearly a put on in the same way some previously normal kid shows up to school one day wearing some extreme costume. I'm sorry Steve...but no...dressing up like someone from the Matrix is not your authentic self. I know...that dates me a bit. I just distinctly recall that happening quite a bit when that movie was popular. These people would show up to school (I was in college at the time) wearing long black leather trench coats and dark eyeliner. Of course I recall the same sort of thing in my high-school days (in the 80s) where some kid would show up to school one day wearing a "cowboy" outfit, or had gone "preppy" or the like (dating myself even further here.) Some people, obviously, wear effeminate as a costume.

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10 hours ago, Vort said:

In my next life, I'm going to be a lawyer so I can learn to think clearly and express myself precisely and concisely.

You have to learn to use terms like "comorbidities" and "in flagrante delicto" more often then.
 

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Some observations and thoughts:

1.     I have come to believe that whatever two intelligent adults do in private is not my concern but whatever anyone makes public is open to public scrutiny and criticism.

2.     I believe that the greatest principle of what is good is Agency even though not choosing good is a paramount principle of Agency.  I speculate that allowing bad choices was the primary engine of the war in heaven and turned the “Great Light Bearer” into Satan.

3.     The part of the human brain that determines preferences is constantly rewiring itself.  It is the same part of the brain that determines if you can (for example) play a musical instrument.   In other words, preferences are not hard wired but are acquired (learned).

4.     Most often those within the LGBTQ+ community are attracted to those that do not consider themselves LGBTQ+.  It is not uncommon for someone that is gay to be attracted to someone that is not gay – in fact there are no hard and fast rules that can be relied upon to determine who is gay and who is not.  In the fantasy of modern love, it is believed that one should pursue whoever they are attracted to – weather or not the attraction us mutual. That we should “win over” those we “love” – if we cannot then there is something wrong with us!  Perhaps we should have tried more diligently?

Not in all cases but in many of those I associate with those that are within the LGBTQ+ community object to some or all of the above.  I speculate this is because it interferes with what they want to believe about themselves and their community.

I have a granddaughter in high school that want to identify as a boy.  This situation is more complex than what I will post but there are some things I believe needs to be understood.  This young lady is dyslexic like me.  It is not uncommon for dyslexic individuals to have difficulty fitting in.  Especially with children – not fitting in often results in being “picked on”.  We have redefined being picked on as being bullied and if someone is bullied, any reaction seems justified.  It is also not uncommon for someone with dyslexia to do poorly in school.  My granddaughter discovered that if she identified as a boy that suddenly any being picked on became the evilest bulling in her high school circles.  Those that picked on her suddenly became afraid to do so in fear of being rejected as a bigot.   So also, teachers took extra time to assist her (him?).  I believe all this is in fear of the LGBTQ+ community.

The result is that suddenly this young lady had power that I believe others feared and respected.  I speculate that this fear and respect in more important than my granddaughter being a boy.  I have hopes that in time all this will outgrow itself.  She likes wearing a dress and makeup.  But in our society being non-binary is popular and perhaps could have more power, respect and recognition?

To end this post – I believe that the Saints of G-d must show love and respect towards all G-d’s children in these last days.  I am not 100% sure of how to go about love and respect of someone upside down in a society that has lost moral direction.  As a light to the world, I understand that we must receive those seeking G-d regardless of their sins and circumstance.  I am not sure how the Saints of G-d communicate love and compassion towards those that hate what we believe and stand for.

 

The Traveler

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21 hours ago, mikbone said:

I think of myself as 100% Male / Masculine and have always been attracted to Female / Feminine women.

I’m not homophobic which is a terrible word because it literally means fear of homosexuality when the agreed upon definition is having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

I work with gay people and have no issues interacting with LGBT identifiers as long as they don’t try to make me accept their lifestyle and conform to their ideas.

On the other hand, I am uncomfortable when around men or boys that act as if they are women or girls.  Girl tomboys don’t bother me at all.  But butch women make me uncomfortable as well.  Always have.

When I grew up, there were a few boys that acted feminine and they were ostracized.  I never did anything to make them feel unwanted or accepted.  I was busy during my youth and was just doing my thing.  I’ve always been a bit of an introvert.

Anyways, because I am a busy surgeon I have let my wife plan our children activities.  She loves the arts and has our children enrolled in ballet, musicals, choir etc.  I never go to the practice sessions but I do attend the performances, recitals, etc.

Ballerinas are great.  But I have noticed that there are many boys in ballet that are feminine.  It still makes me uncomfortable, but there no longer seems to be any ostracization.

One of my daughters was dating a boy @ BYU and when we met him I was confused.  His grasp on masculinity was weak.  He was very friendly and I interacted with him cordially for the sake of my daughter and wife, but when they broke up I was greatly relieved.

After the breakup I teased her and questioned her acceptance of his request for a date.  She then related that there are many boys @ BYU whose manhood is questionable.  A few of whom were accepted in her circle of friends.  BTW - she is now married to a young man that I am proud to call my son-in-law.

Years ago my wife and children supported a local LDS boy who had a love of theatre and produced local plays that were well received.  When I met him I was uncomfortable.  He is @ BYU and will be going to Nicaragua on his mission.  I am weary of his future.

When I hear stories of LDS boys that always knew they were gay but went on a mission and were sealed in the temple with their best friend and then had 2-3 children before they finally stopped lying to themselves got a divorce and then publicly declared their separation from the church and embracement of gay lifestyle, I get irritated and terribly saddened for the wife and children of that union.  Despite all the heroic commentaries and love emojis found on social media supporting his ‘brave’ decision.

There have been fathers in my local wards that make me uncomfortable.

When the recent BYU valedictorian decided to profess his gay lifestyle during his graduation speech, it irritated me greatly.

My question is this.  Are the younger / upcoming generations more accepting of LGBT lifestyles and is this good?  Should we teach our children to be more discriminating?

The USA is certainly changing in style and form; I thought a couple of men I've met recently were gay (based on fashion, diction and mannerism) until I learned they are married; one is a member of our Church! A lot of the millennials (and younger) males have this look with the finely coiffed hair, too-carefully shaped beards, man-buns, Sally Jesse-Raphael glasses with floral hued rims, etc. A couple I walked behind looked like two women in skinny jeans... had the same pear-shaped bottom -- until i walked past and one was a man. So it is, by comparison, a more comparatively more femininized culture than say 30 years ago; at the same time, more angry and violent, which I expect to soon spill over into the more genteel set. I don't think the feminization detracts from the Gospel so much as the general social tension that accompanies such change. I don't think it contributes to LGBTQ favoritism since feminization is not necessarily sexualization (e.g., the metrosexual of the 1990s).

However, confusing children over their eternal identity as children of God, especially by sexualization, is an abomination. So, what was your question? Accepting LGBTQ lifestyles as compatible with the Gospel is not good. The Family Proclamation is an extremely valuable tool in teaching our children their eternal identity and covenants.

In all this, we look upon the heart, and not the appearance.

Edited by CV75
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On 12/14/2022 at 6:36 PM, mikbone said:

When I hear stories of LDS boys that always knew they were gay but went on a mission and were sealed in the temple with their best friend and then had 2-3 children before they finally stopped lying to themselves got a divorce and then publicly declared their separation from the church and embracement of gay lifestyle, I get irritated and terribly saddened for the wife and children of that union.  Despite all the heroic commentaries and love emojis found on social media supporting his ‘brave’ decision.

There have been fathers in my local wards that make me uncomfortable.

When the recent BYU valedictorian decided to profess his gay lifestyle during his graduation speech, it irritated me greatly.

My question is this.  Are the younger / upcoming generations more accepting of LGBT lifestyles and is this good?  Should we teach our children to be more discriminating?

I think the world today has lost a sense of responsibility.  Today a group of people want to make it all about lust and romance.  They don't put any factor about responsibility into it.

If you marry someone and have a family, it does not matter at that point if the romance has gone out of your life for that time.  You are responsible for your family.  As a father you are responsible for your children.  You are responsible for trying to do all you can to help them and your family if you are a Father.  If you are a mother you are responsible that they know they have a loving mother who supports them.  It is more than just about what YOU want, it is about taking care of everyone in the family.

I fee this is forgotten today.  A LOT of it is about the individual and what THEY want rather than what is good for everyone else.  It is about selfish desire rather than expressing the love for others.  It is about what you can get rather than serving and helping those around you.

Those fathers that abandon their families because of worldly lusts (or mothers who do the same) are individuals who make me sad. 

It is also about commitment.  I love my wife tremendously, but even if I did not I would still be committed to her.  I made that commitment many decades ago and that is an important factor in marriage.  You commit to putting your spouse above all else. 

Even if you are gay and decide to get married in a heterosexual marriage, that should not be something you toss away.  You should remain committed to the ideals of the gospel and to living a life that is committed to something more than yourself.  If you choose that path, you should stick to your decision rather than deciding years later that you no longer want to honor your commitments.  It harms those you committed to, it harms those you brought into the world, and to me it is a dishonorable way to act. 

If you don't want that responsibility and commitment and are a homosexual, it is better to NOT trod that path than to try it out or even start down it. 

IMO. 

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I share the same aversions and conflicts as the OP.

I think that God had to provide/allow at least one trial for the latter days that was so confusing, so heart-wrenching, and so entirely reliant on the Spirit for guidance that it could deceive the very elect unless they learned to hear Him.  I think we have two right now:  gender confusion and sexual orientation.  It breaks up friendships, marriages, and church membership for a growing number of us.  There are no clear right and wrong answers other than the unchanging doctrine that eternal marriage is between a man and a woman and gender is divinely appointed.  

Satan is so cunning and brilliant that he is pushing the second great commandment over the first great commandment.  He makes the fight binary where we feel an impulse to choose one over the other.  For some, their heart strings get tugged for people struggling with same sex attraction and push for social change in the Church and rail against the prophets.  For others, they condemn their own children or friends and treat them with disdain.  It is an incredibly hard tight rope to walk to be able to love the sinner and condemn the sin.  But that is our duty if we are to become more like the Savior.

I don't pretend to be far along on that path.  I am very conservative and all of this makes me uncomfortable.  I wish it would go away but it isn't.  And it is going to get worse as this rising generation grows up largely without those hard line teachings from the 70's and 80's against homosexuality.  So buckle up and learn to hear Him or you may get yourself sifted out.

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On 12/14/2022 at 10:19 PM, Vort said:

My authentic self would kill my neighbor to get access to his wife and plot overthrow of legitimate power. I think I've done pretty well reining in my supposedly authentic self. Ditto for all those whose authentic selves would marry children, steal resources, enslave others, etc.

One major purpose of any real religion is to help people be something much better than their so-called authentic selves.

My one "major evil" tendency that I've struggled with since as far back as 2 years old (yes, I remember that far) was my temper.  If I was just "being my authentic self" I'd have been locked up in a penitentiary before I hit puberty.  But luckily, I was taught rules of good behavior that people in civilized societies abide by. 

If you think I have trouble being civilized today, you should have seen what I was as a kid.  It took a long time to tame the feral animal I was as a child to become the highly irritating/grating human being I am today.

I've also had many so-called "minor evil" tendencies that may not have gotten me thrown in prison, but probably excommunicated an shunned from society before I reached the age of majority.  But thanks to religion in my life, and by the grace of God, I've learned to control those tendencies.  Many have faded sufficiently to be non-existent.  Others still rear their ugly head now and then.  But I control them.

So, yes.  This idea that "we're fine just as we are" is lunacy.  No society could possibly survive like that and have any real growth or longevity.

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12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I wonder if this is really as common as some think it is. 

I’m sure it happens, but I don't think it happens as much as people think it does. I imagine it would take a lot for a parent to cut off communication with their child. That's harsh. 
 

Sometimes, it’s the choice of the adult offspring to cut ties with their parents instead. 😞 

 

 

Edited by LDSGator
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