Helping others with doubts


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46 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It can...but it's not key. And, frankly, it runs the risk of the whole meat before milk thing. The milk is testimony. Explanations are useless without that testimony.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I have to refer to the process whereby we have been taught to know of the truth of the gospel. Read the Book of Mormon, ponder it, and get on one's knees, seeking the truth from God with humility and faith. None of the other stuff, ultimately, really matters. I mean it can help for certain people in certain situations. But it will never actually be key to knowing God. There is only one key to knowing God. That is the witness of the Holy Spirit. That is the means we are to find and know God and His truth on this earth. Therefore, the best we can do is what guides others to follow that path. 

I really like this.  We can talk about a person all we want.  But until we actually meet that person, we never really know them.

I sometimes think that the impression we have of Deity is basically what we think we know about celebrities by only watching the silver screen.

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Before we seek to help others, we need to first ensure that we ourselves have a strong foundation. I say this from personal experience with dealing with enemies of the church.

Make sure that you have read the scriptures cover to cover. 

Make sure that you have studied not just church history but world history for yourself.

Make sure that you are actually a participant in the world and not just an observer. 

Make sure that you're prepared to have your faith, your patience, and your hope for humanity tested. 

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On 1/2/2023 at 9:16 AM, scottyg said:

There are lots of things I don't understand, and frankly I could care less about them. The Holy Ghost has let me know what is true...so none of the outside noise really matters.

People can only live on borrowed spiritual light so long.  Everyone needs to gain their own witness.  It really comes to desire in my opinion.  If someone wants a witness they need to really seek it out on their own and put in the needed work to gain one.

The LORD has given me many spiritual witnesses and He will give them to anyone who searches with real intent.  I hope everyone prays for spiritual witnesses and experiences as they attend the LORD's temple.  Some of the most special experiences have happened to me in the temple.

If anyone truly wants to know if the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is true they can gain a powerful witness with faith and works.

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On 1/2/2023 at 8:34 AM, laronius said:

I'm not personally dealing with this issue with anyone I know but it is increasingly becoming a problem and I think will continue to be so and many of us will likely encounter those who do face this challenge. As such I've been taking a closer look at some "anti-Mormon" material to see how easy it might be to refute. Mostly I've looked at the Church history stuff that ex-members like to use to plant seeds of doubts in member's minds. But here is the problem I see. It's extremely easy to cause doubt and often very difficult to refute it, not that it's irrefutable but because the answer is often complex or not yet completely known. And even if the Church was able to provide a good and reasonable response to everything these people say, at the end of the day it doesn't actually prove anything. 

So while I commend the Church for trying to make as much material accessible as possible and while I appreciate the work of organizations such as FAIR and others, I don't think it's in the Lord's plan to provide sufficient proof as to eliminate all doubt. So what is the proper approach to helping honest seekers of truth who have such doubts? Does providing reasonable explanations to people really accomplish anything? 

It is my experience that if an attempt is made to directly address any issue (call to repentance or make correction) that very quickly any discussion will be dominated with anger.  Like Christ with the Pharisees (who were part of the covenant people and believed that they served G-d) it does not seem that logic, reason or any reference to scripture will bring about a change of heart.  We are told to love all – it is obvious to me that the only way this is possible – is if love is a choice we can make rather than something we happen to “feel”.

 

The Traveler

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On 1/2/2023 at 8:34 AM, laronius said:

I'm not personally dealing with this issue with anyone I know but it is increasingly becoming a problem and I think will continue to be so and many of us will likely encounter those who do face this challenge. As such I've been taking a closer look at some "anti-Mormon" material to see how easy it might be to refute. Mostly I've looked at the Church history stuff that ex-members like to use to plant seeds of doubts in member's minds. But here is the problem I see. It's extremely easy to cause doubt and often very difficult to refute it, not that it's irrefutable but because the answer is often complex or not yet completely known. And even if the Church was able to provide a good and reasonable response to everything these people say, at the end of the day it doesn't actually prove anything. 

So while I commend the Church for trying to make as much material accessible as possible and while I appreciate the work of organizations such as FAIR and others, I don't think it's in the Lord's plan to provide sufficient proof as to eliminate all doubt. So what is the proper approach to helping honest seekers of truth who have such doubts? Does providing reasonable explanations to people really accomplish anything? 

 

As a Historian the first thing you want to do is to look for Primary sources.

A LOT of the sources that the anti-mormons are using these days (and by default, unfortunately, as the Church has gone further down the rabbit hole of the anti-mormon lures, the church has also turned to using some of these) are NOT primary sources.  They present them AS IF they are primary sources, but further research shows they are normally unreliable tertiary sources in many cases.  One particularly favorable source they love to use is a source from an avowed anti-mormon reporter who wrote an article about a supposed interview they did 30 years prior.  We are to believe it's authentic simply because they say so.  It uses quotes as if the individuals were saying them as primary sources, but the actual source, the timing, and everything else about it shows unreliability in the source and the evidence doesn't really support it.

It's terrible history work.  The church has turned to some of this for their "modern" interpretations of history as well these days.  It is unfortunate.

Church History (the volumes printed) are not the most reliable, and much of their writing is actually more a secondary source (not as preferred as primary sources) in many instances rather than primary in how it is presented.  It means it is more reliable than most of the sources that the anti-mormons are using, probably more reliable than the Saints volumes that are coming out as the "new" church history, but less reliable than many of the items that one may find in the Joseph Smith papers or other areas.

The biggest difficulty with the Joseph Smith papers is context.  This makes understanding some of what is written in them difficult at times and easily placed in a direction which can mislead without a broader context. 

I am not a Church history expert.  I am an amateur Church Historian.  I AM a historian in other areas and have a specialty in areas outside of Church history.  I understand how historical research should work and am UNIMPRESSED with the anti-mormons way of doing it.  They do it more like a political science stunt where the purpose is to persuade in any way they can regardless of the facts or what the facts present.  Just like politicians, trying to dissuade them is probably pointless as they are committed to a certain point of view regardless of facts or what the other side perceives.  On the otherhand, the way LDS scholarship has gone over the past decade in regards to some of their Church history, or the popular forms in which they are publishing it to the general membership does not really impress me either.  It feels too much like they are trying to rewrite their history rather than to respect their history.

If you are interested in Church history I would suggest first reading through the Doctrine and Covenants and going through as many original documents as possible (Joseph Smith Papers is a good start).  When doing so try to find the authentic broader picture (which can be difficult to do).  This is probably going to be easier by studying American History and then overlapping it with a secondary source such as the original volumes of the Church history.  This is NOT what I would suggest for testimony though.

If you want to build someone's testimony forget using any of the history or historical items.  A person's belief is normally not based completely on hard facts.  You know the sun will rise tomorrow (or believe it will) from repeatedly having it presented to you personally.  You have personally seen it rise and set.  You haven't had someone else tell you that it will, but you have seen it personally (or so I would hope).  You then base your belief that it will rise tomorrow upon what you have personally experienced. 

Likewise, the only way to truly get and build a testimony is on personal experiences.  One needs to be able to feel and then IDENTIFY (I find this can be the hardest part of the entire thing) the Holy Spirit.  If you can factually identify the difference between personal emotion and the Holy Ghost speaking to you, it is the first step in attaining an unshakeable testimony.  This feeling is exactly as the Doctrine and Covenants tells us.  It is not a ghostly or excited emotion, but a calm peace within our heart.  It is different than a normal peace, and hard to explain.  The best I could come to is how one feels reading the Book of Mormon or New Testament and what they may feel during a Sacrament meeting in the Church.  If you can identify how this is different than other things and then sharpen to be able to actually hear the voice talk to you, your testimony will grow strong.  You will KNOW that this is something else beyond you and it is someone speaking to you.  It can tell you things that you need to know or do not know. 

You then have FACTS yourself.  These are FACTS that you have experienced PERSONALLY.  YOU KNOW that it is a voice that is not YOURSELF and it is NOT some emotion speaking to you.  It is a FACT that you can recognize the voice and what it is telling you.  From THESE FACTS (just like seeing the sun rise and set) you can find a true testimony.  Unfortunately, because this is somethng that you PERSONALLY experience, it is not something that you can relay to another as a FACT.  They have to experience and hear the voice themselves. 

The key then is to help others to feel this spirit.  It is not brought about by arguing with them, but by trying to help them to feel this Spirit.  Once they can recognize the Spirit and hear it's voice they too will be able to have a testimony.  I find that those who have turned against the Church, especially those who used to be members in most instances, are so rabid against these things that they have blocked out any way for the Spirit to talk to them in their lives in this manner or to testify of the truthfulness of the Scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon.  This is unfortunate, but it is what it is. 

Instead, bear testimony to those who have not decided or are investigating the gospel.  Encourage them to hear someone who is actually PART of the Church and a member rather than those who would destroy it (I would liken it to who would you rather hear what someone thinks, the actual person, or someone else who is trying to tell you what they think).  Encourage them to read the Book of Mormon and to try to find truth for themselves.  They may not find the truth of the Book of Mormon immediately, or now, but they may come closer to Christ and the Lord.  I would encourage them in their own faith if they do not get the answers they seek in regards to ours.  Support their beliefs and faith in a Christlike manner regardless of what happens, and encourage their own testimonies to grow in our Savior if possible. 

Those are my thoughts and my suggestions.  I have not been completely successful, even with some of my family members these days (and so I may be wrong about this), but my own opinion is that the Spirit is a greater teacher and witness than anything we can do in trying to present facts or history or any other item that pertains more to worldly knowledge than Spiritual knowledge. 

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21 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I'm not sure it is very satisfying, but it seems to me to be something very similar to the question of how prophets and scripture communicate revelation -- my own spiritual experiences are subject to my own failures to receive them properly and interpret them properly.

As an example, I thought of the many times we as LDS have "rationalized away" other people's spiritual experiences in relation to their churches/faiths (I don't know if it is the best example, but one thread on this board:

Sometimes we talk about how people in other churches might have spiritual experiences around truths that they encounter, but these spiritual experiences should not be interpreted as evidence that their church is as true as the LDS church is. If someone has a spiritual experience with the Bible, does that mean the Book of Mormon cannot be scripture? If someone has a spiritual experience with the Book of Mormon, does that mean that the Book of Mormon must be 100% historical? If someone has a spiritual experience in the temple, does that mean that the creation account in the temple is scientifically accurate? Speaking only for myself, I have had spiritual experiences in relation to the reality of God, but does that mean that everything I believe about God's nature is 100% true? I have had experiences around the reality of Christ and His atonement, but does that necessarily mean that every thing attributed to Christ by the Evangelists in the NT is exactly the way it all happened?. I have also had spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon and other scripture and experiences related to the restoration, but does that mean that everything that has happened under the banner of the restoration is exactly what God wanted?  Spiritual experiences are certainly a key part of our testimony, but are we always certain of our interpretation of those spiritual experiences?

Yesterday I read a talk by Elder Bruce C Hafen called "Reason, Faith, and the Things of Eternity." In it he used the life Elder Neal A Maxwell as an example of disciple scholar and finding the proper balance between faith and scholarship. Your comment reminded me of this particular part:

He often reminded LDS scholars that he wasn’t interested in trying to prove in some scientific way that the Book of Mormon is true. Rather, he saw faithful scholarship as a source of defense, not offense. In his words, “Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ.” However, our best LDS scholars will bring forth enough plausible evidence supporting the Book of Mormon “to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith.” That kind of scholarship has the modest but crucial purpose of nourishing a climate in which voluntary belief is free to take root and grow. Only when belief is not compelled, by external evidence or otherwise, can it produce the growth that is the promised fruit of faith.

I have been pondering recently on the role of faith and why God simply does not make everything clear to us. But this comment by Elder Hafen has added a new dimension to my pondering and that is the role of voluntary belief, perhaps as an extension of agency, a form of agency that is ironically eliminated with knowledge or maybe more accurately compelling knowledge. I think this principle can be enlarged to encompass our growing testimony of the Church in general. 

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I have been reading through this thread and would add, perhaps something different than what I think most are presenting.   For me, feeling and emotions seldom if ever make sense and I do not understand why anyone would rely on such things.  For me everything initially comes to me as thoughts and there are two very distinct categories of thoughts.  One category are thoughts of light, logic, reason, order that in general make sense and leads to understanding.  The other category are thoughts of darkness, disorder, selfishness and revenge that if carefully pondered lacks logic and leads to confusion and/or depression.  I have determined that any thought that brings or introduces anger eventually leads to errors, mistakes and things that if perused will cause pain and suffering and other things that require repentance.

@CV75posted that:

Quote

The spiritual witness that something is true isn't the same as the spiritual experience of who and what we are becoming. 

This is a statement that I do not understand or perhaps I should say that I lack experience to relate to.  To me all things that we think about including things we experience and think to understand are spiritual – this includes scientific discoveries, discussion with others and other thought that are generally classified as non-spiritual.  The point for me is to decipher if thoughts are thoughts of light and truth or thoughts of darkness and confusion.  90% of the time this is simple and easy but there are times when I need to proceed with more pondering (logical analysis), prayer and listening to others express their thoughts.   All said and done, at least for me, there is no 100% always accurate, right and precise method of learning and discovery that over time that does not require some repentance and reshaping of my understanding.  I call this journey into the realm of seemingly uncertainty that may (or may not) require repentance and reshaping of my understanding – an act of Faith.  Never in all my experience has proceeding on feelings and emotions proved to be beneficial to anyone (including myself).  I also include things such as wants, desires and passions as feelings as emotions.

As for how to approach others (the one of 99 that is lost from the fold).  I believe we ought to search them out and lovingly assist them (mostly by example) towards returning to the fold of G-d.  I do not think there is anything that will always work, nor do I believe any individual is their (those that are lost) “last” chance.  Sometimes all we can do is plant (or in some small way cultivate an already planted) seed.  I am inclined to believe that many in this life will be devoured by the wolves of this generation and that hope for them will not be completed till some time in the spirit world has taken place.  

I will end this particular post with the thought that comes (at least to me) when reading the final words of the prophet Moroni to our time of great spiritual restoration.  They are recorded in the Book of Mormon in the final chapter (10) of the Book of Moroni.  That to ever person there are different gifts of the spirit and different manifestations of the spirit but all that are from G-d are of truth and light and of the SAME spirit.  None of us can complete this journey towards the light of truth on our own and that it is necessary to the Saints of G-d come together and work together to prepare for the return of Christ to the world to complete the work of salvation for all that believe in G-d and exercise faith in Him.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have been reading through this thread and would add, perhaps something different than what I think most are presenting.   For me, feeling and emotions seldom if ever make sense and I do not understand why anyone would rely on such things.  For me everything initially comes to me as thoughts and there are two very distinct categories of thoughts.  One category are thoughts of light, logic, reason, order that in general make sense and leads to understanding.  The other category are thoughts of darkness, disorder, selfishness and revenge that if carefully pondered lacks logic and leads to confusion and/or depression.  I have determined that any thought that brings or introduces anger eventually leads to errors, mistakes and things that if perused will cause pain and suffering and other things that require repentance.

@CV75posted that:

This is a statement that I do not understand or perhaps I should say that I lack experience to relate to.  To me all things that we think about including things we experience and think to understand are spiritual – this includes scientific discoveries, discussion with others and other thought that are generally classified as non-spiritual.  The point for me is to decipher if thoughts are thoughts of light and truth or thoughts of darkness and confusion.  90% of the time this is simple and easy but there are times when I need to proceed with more pondering (logical analysis), prayer and listening to others express their thoughts.   All said and done, at least for me, there is no 100% always accurate, right and precise method of learning and discovery that over time that does not require some repentance and reshaping of my understanding.  I call this journey into the realm of seemingly uncertainty that may (or may not) require repentance and reshaping of my understanding – an act of Faith.  Never in all my experience has proceeding on feelings and emotions proved to be beneficial to anyone (including myself).  I also include things such as wants, desires and passions as feelings as emotions.

As for how to approach others (the one of 99 that is lost from the fold).  I believe we ought to search them out and lovingly assist them (mostly by example) towards returning to the fold of G-d.  I do not think there is anything that will always work, nor do I believe any individual is their (those that are lost) “last” chance.  Sometimes all we can do is plant (or in some small way cultivate an already planted) seed.  I am inclined to believe that many in this life will be devoured by the wolves of this generation and that hope for them will not be completed till some time in the spirit world has taken place.  

I will end this particular post with the thought that comes (at least to me) when reading the final words of the prophet Moroni to our time of great spiritual restoration.  They are recorded in the Book of Mormon in the final chapter (10) of the Book of Moroni.  That to ever person there are different gifts of the spirit and different manifestations of the spirit but all that are from G-d are of truth and light and of the SAME spirit.  None of us can complete this journey towards the light of truth on our own and that it is necessary to the Saints of G-d come together and work together to prepare for the return of Christ to the world to complete the work of salvation for all that believe in G-d and exercise faith in Him.

 

The Traveler

3 examples: you can have a spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ, but not apply it to have the spiritual experience of becoming like Him. Or you can have a witness that the Church is true, but not join and become justified and sanctified by the Holy Ghost. A testimony of the Book of Mormon but avoid pursuing a deeper understanding for multiple reasons.

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19 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have been reading through this thread and would add, perhaps something different than what I think most are presenting.   For me, feeling and emotions seldom if ever make sense and I do not understand why anyone would rely on such things.  For me everything initially comes to me as thoughts and there are two very distinct categories of thoughts.  One category are thoughts of light, logic, reason, order that in general make sense and leads to understanding.  The other category are thoughts of darkness, disorder, selfishness and revenge that if carefully pondered lacks logic and leads to confusion and/or depression.  I have determined that any thought that brings or introduces anger eventually leads to errors, mistakes and things that if perused will cause pain and suffering and other things that require repentance.

@CV75posted that:

This is a statement that I do not understand or perhaps I should say that I lack experience to relate to.  To me all things that we think about including things we experience and think to understand are spiritual – this includes scientific discoveries, discussion with others and other thought that are generally classified as non-spiritual.  The point for me is to decipher if thoughts are thoughts of light and truth or thoughts of darkness and confusion.  90% of the time this is simple and easy but there are times when I need to proceed with more pondering (logical analysis), prayer and listening to others express their thoughts.   All said and done, at least for me, there is no 100% always accurate, right and precise method of learning and discovery that over time that does not require some repentance and reshaping of my understanding.  I call this journey into the realm of seemingly uncertainty that may (or may not) require repentance and reshaping of my understanding – an act of Faith.  Never in all my experience has proceeding on feelings and emotions proved to be beneficial to anyone (including myself).  I also include things such as wants, desires and passions as feelings as emotions.

As for how to approach others (the one of 99 that is lost from the fold).  I believe we ought to search them out and lovingly assist them (mostly by example) towards returning to the fold of G-d.  I do not think there is anything that will always work, nor do I believe any individual is their (those that are lost) “last” chance.  Sometimes all we can do is plant (or in some small way cultivate an already planted) seed.  I am inclined to believe that many in this life will be devoured by the wolves of this generation and that hope for them will not be completed till some time in the spirit world has taken place.  

I will end this particular post with the thought that comes (at least to me) when reading the final words of the prophet Moroni to our time of great spiritual restoration.  They are recorded in the Book of Mormon in the final chapter (10) of the Book of Moroni.  That to ever person there are different gifts of the spirit and different manifestations of the spirit but all that are from G-d are of truth and light and of the SAME spirit.  None of us can complete this journey towards the light of truth on our own and that it is necessary to the Saints of G-d come together and work together to prepare for the return of Christ to the world to complete the work of salvation for all that believe in G-d and exercise faith in Him.

 

The Traveler

I think this is an insightful post because it reminds me that not everyone's experience with gospel truth is the same. For me the things I feel play a significant role in my ongoing conversion though it has and continues to be a challenge in discerning the source of those feelings but with time that is coming more into focus. But I think I could classify those feelings in two similar categories. 

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21 hours ago, CV75 said:

3 examples: you can have a spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ, but not apply it to have the spiritual experience of becoming like Him. Or you can have a witness that the Church is true, but not join and become justified and sanctified by the Holy Ghost. A testimony of the Book of Mormon but avoid pursuing a deeper understanding for multiple reasons.

Thank you for your examples.   I am not sure what you may be referencing as a spiritual witness.  I have had on very rare occasions what I would call a manifestation.  This is quite different than a spiritual “ah ha” that I think is what you may be presenting.  My first manifestation was much like young Joseph Smith and Moses in that I encountered a dark presents (the darkness I could see and touch) that seemed determined to consume or destroy me – then followed by the presents of a being of light that protected me and pushed back the darkness.  There was no sound though my mind was filled with what seemed to be infinite knowledge (of both the universe and spiritual things) including the divine purpose of the Book of Mormon.  What I am expressing is not adequate of the experience.  I knew in that moment that the Book of Mormon was divine but throughout my life I have come to realize that I was unable to retain the understanding of the contents of the Book of Mormon in the moment nor the understanding that accompanied the light.  As soon as the manifestation ended the seemingly infinite knowledge began to fade and within a few hours, I could not remember details only impressions.

Because my memory of details faded, I cannot say that I have knowledge.  For me knowledge only and always comes as Isaiah explains – Line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  It is my experience that to know anything it must be internalized and become a part of who and what I am.  For me knowing is like a musical instrument.  We can see and touch the instrument, but we do not know (understand) it until we have acquired the ability to play it.  But even then there is another dimension to the instrument as we learn to harmonize with others that have acquired abilities to play other instruments.

I realize this description is inadequate and incomplete and only a glimpse of something much greater than me or what I can describe.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your examples.   I am not sure what you may be referencing as a spiritual witness.  I have had on very rare occasions what I would call a manifestation.  This is quite different than a spiritual “ah ha” that I think is what you may be presenting.  My first manifestation was much like young Joseph Smith and Moses in that I encountered a dark presents (the darkness I could see and touch) that seemed determined to consume or destroy me – then followed by the presents of a being of light that protected me and pushed back the darkness.  There was no sound though my mind was filled with what seemed to be infinite knowledge (of both the universe and spiritual things) including the divine purpose of the Book of Mormon.  What I am expressing is not adequate of the experience.  I knew in that moment that the Book of Mormon was divine but throughout my life I have come to realize that I was unable to retain the understanding of the contents of the Book of Mormon in the moment nor the understanding that accompanied the light.  As soon as the manifestation ended the seemingly infinite knowledge began to fade and within a few hours, I could not remember details only impressions.

Because my memory of details faded, I cannot say that I have knowledge.  For me knowledge only and always comes as Isaiah explains – Line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  It is my experience that to know anything it must be internalized and become a part of who and what I am.  For me knowing is like a musical instrument.  We can see and touch the instrument, but we do not know (understand) it until we have acquired the ability to play it.  But even then there is another dimension to the instrument as we learn to harmonize with others that have acquired abilities to play other instruments.

I realize this description is inadequate and incomplete and only a glimpse of something much greater than me or what I can describe.

 

The Traveler

Yes, the first paragraph is what I'm calling a witness, the second is what I'm referring to as becoming. People can have had the first experience, and yet not experience acting on it or the results of having done so.

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3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, the first paragraph is what I'm calling a witness, the second is what I'm referring to as becoming. People can have had the first experience, and yet not experience acting on it or the results of having done so.

I see this as steps in different places of the same journey.  Again I would make reference to Moroni chapter 10 that there are many manifestations of the same spirit.  The reverse is the same when dealing with temptations.  At every point of our journey – we must act upon it or the spiritual light or darkness fades.  The difference I experienced was in manifestations there is a momentary connection that disconnects regardless of whatever action we take.  I speculate that in the spirit world that a manifestation never disconnects but is remembered.

The principle we are not talking about is Agency which I believe requires the pure light of truth – and perhaps the darkness of evil (being the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).  I believe that knowledge is necessary for Agency.  If we act in faith either to that which is true or that which is a line then the choice is not permanent and can be changed.

I have always been troubled with the phrase “I know _______ is true.” (the ______ can be filled in with whatever).  This is because I believe that knowledge of light a truth is of the Holy Ghost – and knowledge of darkness and lies is of Satan.   

I am enjoying this exchange because I am getting a perspective into things outside of my personal wheelhouse.  

Thanks

 

The Traveler

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35 minutes ago, Traveler said:

????  How would you describe a coming to realize something for the first time?

 

The Traveler

My point is that you seem to be equating the idea of a "witness" with an "ah ha" moment...or that at least you seem to imply that you think @CV75 is only referring to that. But I believe (he (she? sorry?) can correct me if I'm wrong) that having an "ah ha" moment is a reaction, not the witness itself. The witness merely is. It's something that occurs. It's like being a witness to anything. You either saw the guy steal the car or you didn't. You either heard the gunshot or you didn't. You either felt something or you did not. You either had a thought enter your head or you did not. If you are a witness to something then you are. Period. Whether one responds emotionally to that, or whether one thinks, "Ah ha" or not doesn't change the reality of the witness, or the fact that one could, if one so chooses, bear testimony of what one is a witness of.

The Spirit bears witness of something that the Spirit has witnessed, and then we can bear witness of what the Spirit has communicated to us. But the Spirit has born witness to me of various things many times that were not "Ah ha" moments. That's because, for the most part, when the Spirit bears witness to me it is a confirmation of something I already know or believe or have had a witness of prior. It might remind me of the power of the original witness, but it isn't an "Ah ha".

More importantly, I think (and this goes to @CV75's point I believe), sometimes people are given a witness and ignore it, deny it, or otherwise consider it flawed at some level or another. They still have the experience. They merely don't respond with an "Ah ha".

I hope that makes my point clear.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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18 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My point is that you seem to be equating the idea of a "witness" with an "ah ha" moment...or that at least you seem to imply that you think @CV75 is only referring to that. But I believe (he (she? sorry?) can correct me if I'm wrong) that having an "ah ha" moment is a reaction, not the witness itself. The witness merely is. It's something that occurs. It's like being a witness to anything. You either saw the guy steal the car or you didn't. You either heard the gunshot or you didn't. You either felt something or you did not. You either had a thought enter your head or you did not. If you are a witness to something then you are. Period. Whether one responds emotionally to that, or whether one thinks, "Ah ha" or not doesn't change the reality of the witness, or the fact that one could, if one so chooses, bear testimony of what one is a witness of.

The Spirit bears witness of something that the Spirit has witnessed, and then we can bear witness of what the Spirit has communicated to us. But the Spirit has born witness to me of various things many times that were not "Ah ha" moments. That's because, for the most part, when the Spirit bears witness to me it is a confirmation of something I already know or believe or have had a witness of prior. It might remind me of the power of the original witness, but it isn't an "Ah ha".

More importantly, I think (and this goes to @CV75's point I believe), sometimes people are given a witness and ignore it, deny it, or otherwise consider it flawed at some level or another. They still have the experience. They merely don't respond with an "Ah ha".

I hope that makes my point clear.

I appreciate @CV75 and your effort to bring to light your spiritual growth and experiences.  I am not sure, because I cannot speak for you and CV75 but for me as I read through your descriptions the glass slipper is close but does not quite fit.  I assume the same is happening for you guys as you go through my descriptions.  I am not sure why this happens and I am concerned that because we struggle expressing ourselves that instead of bringing understanding we may cause confusion.

At this point I would say something about what we are labeling “manifestations”.  In my experience the purpose of these events are as much (or perhaps more so) a call to repentance as they are a witness of Christ.  I think that such manifestations are given as personal revelation and are not given as means to think less of others.  I think it is an error to assume that someone else should act and repent because of their experience.  I think it is okay to say that one’s self should have acted better because of their experience but to avoid condemning or thinking less of others.

As for the “Ah ha”.  This happens often for me as I deal with something that I do not yet understand.  Sometimes it is like a puzzle that is almost complete but something is missing.  And then the missing piece is found – strangely (at least for me) sometimes the missing piece comes from a most unexpected source that I thought could not provide such.  Anyway, that piece (or logic) fits perfectly and the complete picture is made known.  What is interesting is that whenever this happens (at least for me) it is like a compass has provided a more accurate reading and I need a course correction (repentance).   Every witness and spiritual renewal, for me, is a call for me to repent.

I often wonder if calls to repent are because of a failure on my part or because of something good.  At this point of my life – I find myself somewhat diminished and as I continue to age – less able to accomplish things that use to seem simple – both physically and spiritually.

 

The Traveler

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50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

often wonder if calls to repent are because of a failure on my part or because of something good.  At this point of my life – I find myself somewhat diminished and as I continue to age – less able to accomplish things that use to seem simple – both physically and spiritually

Trav don’t talk about yourself that way bro. Age is nothing but a number. You contribute here, and I’m 100% confident you contribute  a great deal to your ward, your family, etc

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22 hours ago, Traveler said:

I see this as steps in different places of the same journey.  Again I would make reference to Moroni chapter 10 that there are many manifestations of the same spirit.  The reverse is the same when dealing with temptations.  At every point of our journey – we must act upon it or the spiritual light or darkness fades.  The difference I experienced was in manifestations there is a momentary connection that disconnects regardless of whatever action we take.  I speculate that in the spirit world that a manifestation never disconnects but is remembered.

The principle we are not talking about is Agency which I believe requires the pure light of truth – and perhaps the darkness of evil (being the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).  I believe that knowledge is necessary for Agency.  If we act in faith either to that which is true or that which is a line then the choice is not permanent and can be changed.

I have always been troubled with the phrase “I know _______ is true.” (the ______ can be filled in with whatever).  This is because I believe that knowledge of light a truth is of the Holy Ghost – and knowledge of darkness and lies is of Satan.   

I am enjoying this exchange because I am getting a perspective into things outside of my personal wheelhouse.  

Thanks

 

The Traveler

Thank you for your remarks!

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

At this point of my life – I find myself somewhat diminished and as I continue to age – less able to accomplish things that use to seem simple – both physically and spiritually.

Yep, you and me both.  You might have a bit of a head start on me (I'm early '50's), but I'm absolutely starting to slow down from my normal rock star miracle working.   They tell me it's part of the plan, so I guess I'll go with it.  Might as well, since there's really not any other choice.

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