Rapture

[dawneandgreg]

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi and welcome dawneandgreg!

8 hours ago, dawneandgreg said:

I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

I have no idea why you've never heard us talking about 1 Thes 4. 

It's still there in the current 2023 seminary teacher's manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual-2023/1-thessalonians-4-5?lang=eng

And the seminary home study manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-1-thessalonians/unit-26-day-2-1-thessalonians?lang=eng

We were talking about it in Sunday School when studying the New Testament: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/new-testament-teacher-resource-manual/the-first-epistle-of-paul-the-apostle-to-the-thessalonians/1-thessalonians-1-5?lang=eng

And here it is in the CES independent study manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/ces-independent-study/nt/lessons/nt-212-lesson-3.pdf

Our Primary teachers are pointed to 1 Thes 4, when preparing lessons around the 2nd coming: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/image/the-second-coming-a824e2d?lang=eng&collectionId=39d6eb39806e5744e51620a8ae5dc70f594604f0

 

So, yeah.  I honestly don't know why you've never heard it.  Maybe you missed the week it got talked about in primary when you were a kiddo, missed it again in seminary, missed it a third time in Sunday School, a fourth time in Gospel Principles, and maybe you never did any of the home study stuff.  Maybe you could fill in the blanks for us here?

I mean, not trying to come across as snippy or dismissive or anything.  Is there something about what we get taught that you take issue with, or something?

 

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, dawneandgreg said:

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

I cannot say why you have not heard about the "righteous" that will be "translated" to be with Christ when He comes in his glory.  There are speculations both within the Church and in other religions that appear to me to be just that – Speculations.  What we do not know from the scripture reference that your quote -- if any mortal life will survive this event.  Some think that like the baptism of water in the days of Noah that there will be a baptism of fire that will consume all untranslated life on earth as symbolized in the flood of Noah and what was preserved on the Ark.

The term “Rapture” does not appear in scripture and for myself – I have determined that those that employ made up terms – do so because they do not understand what will be.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

10 hours ago, dawneandgreg said:

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

Fascinating. I have spent my life as an active Latter-day Saint in a family of Latter-day Saints. I served a mission and have been actively engaged in the Church for my entire life. I have spent many, many hours (surely many years' worth) in conversation with family and friends about the gospel, scripture, and other such topics. Yet not once in all that time have I heard "[a lot] of talk from my friends and family about" a relatively obscure verse of scripture.

I wonder why that is? Huh. Wonder, wonder, wonder. Amazing.

10 hours ago, dawneandgreg said:

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

My guess is it's because you have never actually searched the Church's teachings. I think NT has done a pretty thorough job of illustrating this.

Let me give you a quick leg up on this topic.

The idea of "The Rapture" is unknown to historical Christianity, from the earliest times until maybe two centuries ago or so. Not all Christian sects even believe in the literal return of Christ for a millennial reign. Among those who did believe in such a literal return, American Evangelicals hatched the doctrine of "The Rapture", as far as I can tell based largely, perhaps solely, on the 1 Thessalonians 4 verses you quoted.

We Latter-day Saints don't talk much about this doctrine because it's not a revealed doctrine. It's an interpretation by Evangelical Christians from a couple of hundred years ago. Whether it's accurate or not (and it's not) is irrelevant to the course that the kingdom of God pursues. Even if we were to suppose The Rapture might be a true doctrine, so what? How does that affect our relationship to God, our duties under his guidance, and the course we are to follow?

I think your friends and family that are talking so much about 1 Thess. 4 might be better off finding a more fruitful area of concentration and spiritual inquiry. For example, faith and duty to God seem more important and rewarding areas of study.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Vort

[LDSGator]

47 minutes ago, Vort said:

The idea of "The Rapture" is unknown to historical Christianity, from the earliest times until maybe two centuries ago or so.

@Vort, first off you are exactly right, so this isn’t a challenge.
 

In fact, I think you are being too generous here-don’t you think the idea of “the rapture” (as you perfectly put it) is more recent? Like maybe even 100 years ago? 

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

@Vort, first off you are exactly right, so this isn’t a challenge.
 

In fact, I think you are being too generous here-don’t you think the idea of “the rapture” (as you perfectly put it) is more recent? Like maybe even 100 years ago? 

I don't know. I have spent very little time studying The Rapture. It strikes me as a prime example of an unimportant, mechanistic point. I realize that some people think that things like Priesthood authority and doctrinal clarity in general are "unimportant, mechanistic points", so I don't pretend that my judgment actually means anything. But I have noticed that many Saints get caught up in ideas about how this or that is to be done, what our post-resurrection roles will be, and other such stuff that has not been publicly revealed and that, frankly, just doesn't make a particle of difference when it comes to living one's religion. I realize that many so-called Evangelical Christians think that their doctrine of The Rapture is absolutely central and key to their beliefs. Whatever. They are certainly free to believe whatever they want. If our resident evangelical Christian @prisonchaplain is lurking, I'd be interested in his input into why the idea of The Rapture might be so important.

I guess my point is that even if The Rapture as preached by evangelical Christians is a real thing, so what? It's like saying that God used the (currently poorly understood) processes of stellar accretion and evolution to create the Earth. If you accept that, then what have you really added to your understanding of the nature of God or of our relationship to him? At best, it seems like an answer to a trivia question that might scratch an intellectual itch, but otherwise contributes nothing of significance to your spiritual well-being.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

At best, it seems like an answer to a trivia question that might scratch an intellectual itch, but otherwise contributes nothing of significance to your spiritual well-being.

Agree 10,000%. 

[laronius]

14 hours ago, dawneandgreg said:

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

Rapture is not a term we really use. We generally just say Second Coming and that topic is talked about a lot, with increasing frequency it seems. The specific part of the righteous being caught up to meet Him at His coming is really just one piece of a much broader set of events that will be taking place. 

[Just_A_Guy]

8 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hi and welcome dawneandgreg!

I have no idea why you've never heard us talking about 1 Thes 4. 

It's still there in the current 2023 seminary teacher's manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-seminary-teacher-manual-2023/1-thessalonians-4-5?lang=eng

And the seminary home study manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-1-thessalonians/unit-26-day-2-1-thessalonians?lang=eng

We were talking about it in Sunday School when studying the New Testament: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/new-testament-teacher-resource-manual/the-first-epistle-of-paul-the-apostle-to-the-thessalonians/1-thessalonians-1-5?lang=eng

And here it is in the CES independent study manual: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/ces-independent-study/nt/lessons/nt-212-lesson-3.pdf

Our Primary teachers are pointed to 1 Thes 4, when preparing lessons around the 2nd coming: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/image/the-second-coming-a824e2d?lang=eng&collectionId=39d6eb39806e5744e51620a8ae5dc70f594604f0

 

So, yeah.  I honestly don't know why you've never heard it.  Maybe you missed the week it got talked about in primary when you were a kiddo, missed it again in seminary, missed it a third time in Sunday School, a fourth time in Gospel Principles, and maybe you never did any of the home study stuff.  Maybe you could fill in the blanks for us here?

I mean, not trying to come across as snippy or dismissive or anything.  Is there something about what we get taught that you take issue with, or something?

 

The idea that the righteous will be "caught up to meet Christ at His coming" is, of course, very much a part of Church teaching.  You have, e.g., D&C 88:95-98 and D&C 109:73-75.  The New Testament Institute manual, in discussing 1 Thess 4:17, notes that "Many Christians use the word rapture (from a Latin term meaning "caught up") when referring to the time when the righteous will be caught up to meet the Savior at His coming."  It's just that, mechanically/chronologically, we don't know how exactly how it will work; and few in authority have been willing to publicly speculate on it.  (I just checked McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and Millennial Messiah and was shocked at how little even he was willing to say about the Saints being "caught up" at Christ's coming other than terse acknowledgements that it does happen.

[mikbone]

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - this painting I guess didn't 'age well'.  Meaning, folks used to tolerate a good hellfire and brimstone sermon about how they, yes, they, yes, you right there young man, are going to hell unless you change your ways, ya sinner.  These days folks see themselves depicted on Christ's left hand, and go find something else to believe that makes 'em happy.

@mikbone's image was sort of halfway down the slope of that cultural change.  Here's the original (I think - it's really hard to find online)

 

 

If I remember correctly, too many folks didn't like seeing the religious folks on the right side portrayed.  It was seen as the church being insultingly combative.  Back then, you could find Mormons believing (sometimes even taking it upon themselves to teach) that the Great Whore of Babylon was the Catholic church. 

[RAB]

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh - this painting I guess didn't 'age well'.  Meaning, folks used to tolerate a good hellfire and brimstone sermon about how they, yes, they, yes, you right there young man, are going to hell unless you change your ways, ya sinner.  These days folks see themselves depicted on Christ's left hand, and go find something else to believe that makes 'em happy.

@mikbone's image was sort of halfway down the slope of that cultural change.  Here's the original (I think - it's really hard to find online)

 

 

If I remember correctly, too many folks didn't like seeing the religious folks on the right side portrayed.  It was seen as the church being insultingly combative.  Back then, you could find Mormons believing (sometimes even taking it upon themselves to teach) that the Great Whore of Babylon was the Catholic church. 

I don’t get the outrage when you clearly see a Jesuit priest on Christ’s right hand coming toward him.  People need to stop straining at gnats.

[mordorbund]

Sorry folks. Rapture’s right there in the hymnal.

[askandanswer]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:01 PM, dawneandgreg said:

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 was mentioned in General Conference on the following occasions:

 

You are right, 12 times in the last 193 years is not a lot. However, I draw your attention to the timeframe - the earliest date in the list is 1875, and the same source shows that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young referenced 1 Thessalonians 4:16, taking it back at least another 30 years. So it is not a new doctrine, and as indicated by the most recent entry of 2015, when Elder Neal L Anderson referenced this verse, it is stil being talked about today. And you can't get any more public than General Conference, which is available in its entireity to anyone with an internet connection so it is in no way a secret doctrine. 

I could tell you how many times each of the other verses in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 have been referenced in General Conference, rather than just verse 16, but I think this is sufficient to establish the point that scriptures about the rapture do get mentioned from time to time in a very public setting. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by askandanswer

[JohnsonJones]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:35 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Heh - this painting I guess didn't 'age well'.  Meaning, folks used to tolerate a good hellfire and brimstone sermon about how they, yes, they, yes, you right there young man, are going to hell unless you change your ways, ya sinner.  These days folks see themselves depicted on Christ's left hand, and go find something else to believe that makes 'em happy.

@mikbone's image was sort of halfway down the slope of that cultural change.  Here's the original (I think - it's really hard to find online)

 

 

If I remember correctly, too many folks didn't like seeing the religious folks on the right side portrayed.  It was seen as the church being insultingly combative.  Back then, you could find Mormons believing (sometimes even taking it upon themselves to teach) that the Great Whore of Babylon was the Catholic church. 

 

Of interest, the same people on the left hand side are the same ones on the right hand side. 

[Jersey Boy]

On 1/5/2023 at 3:31 AM, dawneandgreg said:

I am hearing alot of talk from my friends and family about the rapture found in 1 Thes chapter 4:

 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 I have never heard about this in any church teachings- why?

Over the years, I’ve learned that just because I’m personally unfamiliar with a particular Church teaching doesn’t mean it isn’t an official doctrine of the Church. I presume you’re unfamiliar with the following verses taken from the very significant  “Olive Leaf” revelation?

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, the who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 88)

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Over the years, I’ve learned that just because I’m personally unfamiliar with a particular Church teaching doesn’t mean it isn’t an official doctrine of the Church. I presume you’re unfamiliar with the following verses taken from the very significant  “Olive Leaf” revelation?

You have misunderstood dawneandgreg's problem. She has been hearing a lot about The Rapture from her family and friends, who appear to have started talking about it incessantly. Why has she never been exposed to this before? Why, it's as if the Church doesn't even talk about it! Please don't confuse this simple, open argument with silly talk about General Conference speakers and Section 84.

[Jersey Boy]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

You have misunderstood dawneandgreg's problem. She has been hearing a lot about The Rapture from her family and friends, who appear to have started talking about it incessantly. Why has she never been exposed to this before? Why, it's as if the Church doesn't even talk about it! Please don't confuse this simple, open argument with silly talk about General Conference speakers and Section 84.

It’s probably fair to say that the reason why she’s never been exposed to the church doctrine that the righteous resurrected saints are going to be “caught up” to meet the Lord at the time of his Second Coming is because she’s either never read the pertinent verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, Doctrine and Covenants 88, and Doctrine and Covenants 109; or if she has read them they apparently didn’t make a sufficient enough impression on her mind. I’ve been well acquainted with this Church doctrine for decades without anyone having to teach me about it because when I read the pertinent passages I was able to comprehend what was being said.

[mordorbund]

Where does Kirk Cameron fit in all this?

[Carborendum]

37 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Where does Kirk Cameron fit in all this?

I'm not sure.  I hear he's quite TAKEN with the doctrine. I hear his sister doesn't fit in anymore because she had a Full House.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:06 AM, Jersey Boy said:

It’s probably fair to say that the reason why she’s never been exposed to the church doctrine that the righteous resurrected saints are going to be “caught up” to meet the Lord at the time of his Second Coming is because she’s either never read the pertinent verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, Doctrine and Covenants 88, and Doctrine and Covenants 109; or if she has read them they apparently didn’t make a sufficient enough impression on her mind. I’ve been well acquainted with this Church doctrine for decades without anyone having to teach me about it because when I read the pertinent passages I was able to comprehend what was being said.

You may have missed Vort's sarcasm.