Arizona Election


Anddenex
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I am not from Arizona, however, I have been following the election and the legal proceedings, and can confirm that this is real and true.  On a related note, as it stands, Kari Lake's legal team lost their lawsuit because they weren't able to prove that the voter disenfranchisement that occurred was intentional.  She is appealing the decision, but as I understand it, it is unlikely to succeed because, despite what appears to many to be very clear evidence, proving the disenfranchisement occurred is insufficient from a legal standpoint; in AZ, they must be able to prove that it was an intentional act.  While it is plausible that it was an intentional act, proving that is much more difficult than proving that it took place.

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12 hours ago, person0 said:

I am not from Arizona, however, I have been following the election and the legal proceedings, and can confirm that this is real and true.  On a related note, as it stands, Kari Lake's legal team lost their lawsuit because they weren't able to prove that the voter disenfranchisement that occurred was intentional.  She is appealing the decision, but as I understand it, it is unlikely to succeed because, despite what appears to many to be very clear evidence, proving the disenfranchisement occurred is insufficient from a legal standpoint; in AZ, they must be able to prove that it was an intentional act.  While it is plausible that it was an intentional act, proving that is much more difficult than proving that it took place.

Thanks for the information. Do you know why he specifies he is under duress, and that he could receive a felony if he didn't respond and say "aye"?

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I am very glad that there is a spotlight on elections.  As a side note - I do not believe we will ever have a fair democratic election without changing quite a few things.  One is clearing the voter registration to prevent one person from having multiple ballots for many reasons – one because of moving or someone at the address dying.  We are so far from one citizen one ballot that the only way to solve it would be a reregistration requiring a person to show up with valid ID and valid address prior to any election.  Registration is so out of control it is impossible to validate an election.  Elections are no longer the privy of citizens but rather those that oversee registrations, collect ballots and count votes.

I realize homelessness is a problem – If someone does not have a valid residence – how can they be said to be a citizen of that city, county, state or country.

 

The Traveler

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I didn't watch the video, nor am I from Arizona.

What I've read in the News was that there was a Republican district that refused to certify.  Ironically, if they refused to certify by the deadline it meant that the Democratic candidate automatically won as those Republican votes would NOT be counted.

The CATCH was that if they refused to certify and DEFIED state law by refusing to certify, than it could lead to a crisis.  The crisis was NOT made for Arizona, but was to make a point that ALL elections EVERYWHERE could be decertified and counted as unable to be counted (similar to some ideas that were actually done in Germany so that the Nazi party would eventually gain control.  Normally do not want to Godwin the thread, but the TREND is actually REALLY BAD when people seem to be taking pages out of the Nazi playbook directly) causing unrest.

So, there was the double whammy.  The IRONY is that it was a REPUBLICAN district.  There was no way it was going to go to the Democrats and no way the Democrats could have changed the direction it was going.  The only votes to be discounted were the Republican votes counted by the Republican party leaders over the voting district.  This meant that the ONLY corruption there could have been from...Republican leaders.  They were basically calling themselves corrupt.

It doesn't mean that there isn't Democrat corruption, but the way it's been reported from Arizona isn't the way to try to prove that. 

This also is the PROBLEM Kari Lake is having.  She says all this, but has NO EVIDENCE that can be held up in the court of Law...even from the Republican Judicial side of things.  The judge is an appointee of a REPUBLICAN governor, at least from what the news is telling me. 

Quote

Court Judge Peter Thompson stated in his order. “A court setting such a margin aside, as far as the Court is able to determine, has never been done in the history of the United States. This challenge also comes after a hotly contested gubernatorial race and an ongoing tumult over election procedures and legitimacy – a far less uncommon occurrence in this country.”

“Plaintiff has no free-standing right to challenge election results based upon what Plaintiff believes – rightly or wrongly – went awry on Election Day,” Thompson stated in his order. “She must, as a matter of law, prove a ground that the legislature has provided as a basis for challenging an election.”

This judge dismissed the case, but she IS appealing it.  It could go somewhere, it may not.  Right now it is up to the courts to decide, but thus far, she doesn't seem to actually be making much headway.  IF she is having this much trouble from her OWN party which in theory is on HER side, it means that she has a LONG way to fight.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Right now it is up to the courts to decide, but thus far, she doesn't seem to actually be making much headway. 

Her doubling down reminds me of the democrats running Beto again. Political zealots are too stupid to learn from mistakes. You’d think the democrats would learn not to run Beto again after he loses for the 3rd time. Well, you’d think that republicans would quit promoting this woman after she keeps losing, but no. 

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On 1/9/2023 at 11:23 AM, Anddenex said:

Thanks for the information. Do you know why he specifies he is under duress, and that he could receive a felony if he didn't respond and say "aye"?

EXCLUSIVE: Katie Hobbs’ Office Threatened County Board With Arrest, Indictment If They Didn’t Certify Results | The Daily Caller

6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Her doubling down reminds me of the democrats running Beto again. Political zealots are too stupid to learn from mistakes. You’d think the democrats would learn not to run Beto again after he loses for the 3rd time. Well, you’d think that republicans would quit promoting this woman after she keeps losing, but no. 

For this to be true, it would also have to be true that the election outcome was not impacted by voter disenfranchisement.  You may or may not believe the issues that took place were sufficient to have impacted the result, but if it they were, then your assessment is invalidated.  The problem for the Lake team is not in proving the disenfranchisement happened, nor is it in proving the law was broken (they successfully established both of those things at trial), instead, the problem is proving that the issues were the result of intentionally malicious acts, which is a much higher standard.

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Guest Godless

Everything I've read about this situation seems to suggest that the delay in certifying the Mojave Co results was to send a message and that there was no pragmatic procedural reason to delay certification. The video in the OP seems to support this.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I am absolutely in favor of indicting officials who hold election results hostage for nothing more than political grandstanding. If states don't enforce their electoral laws, procedures, and deadlines, then the door is left wide open for real voter disenfranchisement, and facilitating that should be a felony.

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15 minutes ago, Godless said:

Everything I've read about this situation seems to suggest that the delay in certifying the Mojave Co results was to send a message and that there was no pragmatic procedural reason to delay certification. The video in the OP seems to support this.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I am absolutely in favor of indicting officials who hold election results hostage for nothing more than political grandstanding. If states don't enforce their electoral laws, procedures, and deadlines, then the door is left wide open for real voter disenfranchisement, and facilitating that should be a felony.

Unpopular, no. I'm in favor of holding officials accountable as long as "ALL" officials and proceedings that are in error are dealt with in the same way and manner. 

The "conflict of interest" which is very apparent in the Arizona elections seems to be something of interest as well, which should also be recognized. But double standards seem to be strong in our political arena.

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54 minutes ago, person0 said:

he problem for the Lake team

Is that she didn’t get enough votes to win. There is no conspiracy, no fraud. It’s that simple. The voters picked someone else and the losing side is unable to grasp it. 
 

The hard right can have yet another tantrum, but it’ll do them no good at all. A wiser response would be for them to choose better candidates and realize that voters don’t flock to sore losers. 

Edited by LDSGator
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I get that losing is bitter. I’ve lost many times in TKD. But when I lose I look inward, blame myself, and don’t make up conspiracies or scream at the judges. 
 

Not surprisingly, because I handle loss like an adult, my scores generally go up because I learn what I did wrong. If I just stomped my feet, held my breath until I passed out and blamed “haters” I’d get nowhere and I’d alienate even people who want me to succeed. Just like politics. 
 

In 2000 I felt the same way about Al Gore. When liberals whine about 2000 (and sorry @Godless but they did until 2008) I laugh at them for being sore losers too. 

Edited by LDSGator
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1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

There is no conspiracy, no fraud. It’s that simple.

Says every government that has fallen before it fell. History repeats itself, and every strong nation that has fallen has fallen from conspiracies denizens' and politicians said did not exist.

As I have shared here before, I'm pretty sure from history Ceasar was told there was no conspiracy to dethrone him until he was stabbed in the back. But isn't that the thing about conspiracies, they are easily hidden until its too late.

All it takes is for people to continue to deny the signs until it is too late also. Is there a conspiracy here? Could be, just as there could not be. Is it interesting to see how in two cases now, potentially more, where a candidate doesn't debate, doesn't do anything to promote, and yet somehow gets more votes than someone who has more influence?

Could it all be coincidence, sure, any intelligent mind will be open to that as any intelligent mind is also aware of history and the secret combinations within said government to take away the freedoms and rights of its denizens.

Edited by Anddenex
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43 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

There is no conspiracy, no fraud. It’s that simple.

Is that your answer to every election integrity case, always?  How closely have you followed the AZ election?  Did you watch the trial?

The thing that annoys me when members of the Church respond in the way you have, on election concerns, is that it flies in the face of the scriptures and the words of the prophets.  That is not to say that all election concerns are valid.  That said, to dismiss them outright and to be unwilling to recognize the reality that fraud does occur, that disenfranchisement does occur, and that secret combinations do exist for the purpose of securing power and circumventing the will of the people, is just entirely disingenuous.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2012-08-2620-secret-combinations?lang=eng

Quote

I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society.  It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (Ezra Taft Benson)

I don't believe all voter related issues that are announced are real, however, I think we would be quite foolish to dismiss all simply because they are dismissed by a judge and the courts.

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1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Says every government that has fallen before it fell. History repeats itself, and every strong nation that has fallen has fallen from conspiracies denizens' and politicians said did not exist.

As I have shared here before, I'm pretty sure from history Ceasar was told there was no conspiracy to dethrone him until he was stabbed in the back. But isn't that the thing about conspiracies, they are easily hidden until its too late.

All it takes is for people to continue to deny the signs until it is too late also. Is there a conspiracy here? Could be, just as there could not be. Is it interesting to see how in two cases now, potentially more, where a candidate doesn't debate, doesn't do anything to promote, and yet somehow gets more votes than someone who has more influence?

Could it all be coincidence, sure, any intelligent mind will be open to that as any intelligent mind is also aware of history.

Yeah, I get all that but in my experience when people say “conspiracy” 99% of the time that means “I don't understand what is happening so I’ll call it a conspiracy to make me feel smarter, more in the loop, and better than all you sheep!”  

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Just now, person0 said:
1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

 

Is that your answer to every election integrity case, always? 

Actually, yes, because like I mentioned before I’m very skeptical of conspiracies. It always comes from…well, the losers. If my candidate wins, then everything is fine. If the they lose, then it’s it a giant conspiracy! It’s childish and very, very predictable. 
 

The democrats are praying for this. What do you think they want? More chaos and flocking around Kari Lake, or putting time and resources around a winnable candidate? 

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@Anddenex-No one will argue that I’m not royally arrogant. Yup, guilty as charged 100%. I admit it and embrace it.

I can genuinely say that every conspiracy theorist is just as arrogant as I am, but they won’t admit it. They get a giddy little thrill feeling superior to all of us sheep who need to “do our own research.” I think that is what bothers me more than anything about them. They want to feel superior and this is how they do it. 
 

Anyway, Arizona. I don’t understand what the clear goal Is here. Do you think someone is going to break into the governor’s office and place Kari Lake in office? 

Edited by LDSGator
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20 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Yeah, I get all that but in my experience when people say “conspiracy” 99% of the time that means “I don't understand what is happening so I’ll call it a conspiracy to make me feel smarter, more in the loop, and better than all you sheep!”  

I'm not sure I would put an actual percentage to it; however, I would agree that often when things don't go the way we anticipate it is easy to say conspiracy because of the cognitive dissonance we are experiencing -- at this moment.

What I like to ask myself is, if the roles were reversed would the same decision have been made? You previously mentioned Al Gore, and what I find interesting here is that a recount occurred (or am I reading and remembering things incorrectly?). In this case, if votes were recounted that provides a security and enables confidence to be maintained to a degree because an action took place to review it.

When I begin hearing a political party start off before elections saying, "right-wing extremists already have a plan to literally steal the next presidential election." Think about this statement critically? It comes right after a fuliginous presidential win, by whom also said we should respect the results of the elections without complaint. Another item to let sink in. This is called doublespeak. There are no conspiracies! There is though "a plan" (a conspiracy) to take the election by force. We should respect the election results. The atmosphere has been set for 2024 by a dominant political opponent. If we do not win, the plan succeeded and we need to fight by what means we have, but if we do win then "they" (our opponents) need to respect the win, but not us if we lose.

This is the type of language that are signs. I'm talking even from the Republican side also.

I started this thread to understand more of what happened in this county, and from some outlets they are saying this could be a county that could change the outcome (that I'm not wholely sure because to much misinformation on the internet). So, I'm trying to understand this more. If the Republican judge (as from what I read) is truly delaying just to delay then he needs to be held accountable. If he is delaying due to the courts, then I have no problem with it, and the litigation and threat against him is a problem. That is more what I'm trying to understand here.

Edited by Anddenex
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3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I'm not sure I would put an actual percentage to it; however, I would agree that often when things don't go the way we anticipate it is easy to say conspiracy because of the cognitive dissonance we are experiencing -- at this moment.

Good point, I shouldn’t have done that-assigned a number. But my experience with election deniers and other conspiracy theorists has been overwhelmingly negative.  No joking,  you are absolutely correct there.  

Edited by LDSGator
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9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Anyway, Arizona. I don’t understand what the clear goal Is here. Do you think someone is going to break into the governor’s office and place Kari Lake in office?

This is the goal of the Lake team, as well as the Hamadeh team:
Flashback: Previous Arizona Gubernatorial Election Was Overturned (westernjournal.com)

I doubt it will happen.
 

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I can genuinely say that every conspiracy theorist is just as arrogant as I am, but they won’t admit it.

16 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

The democrats are praying for this. What do you think they want? More chaos and flocking around Kari Lake, or putting time and resources around a winnable candidate?

I don't know if you are describing me as a conspiracy theorist.  My claim in the AZ situation is that a conspiracy didn't have to have occurred at all in order for the face value, plain as day result to be unreliable due to election day issues that led to voter disenfranchisement.

Consider Nephi who prophesied of the Chief Judge's murder from his tower.  He was accused of being an accomplice, the 5 men who went to verify were imprisoned, and the people believed the wicked and corrupt judges, because that's what they wanted to believe, until they had verified everything Nephi said in a way they could not deny before the people.  The reality is that corruption occurs, and the sad reality is that because corruption is real, the devil will distract from real corruption with fake rumors of corruption.

Regardless, what I care about most is the truth, and learning and knowing it, even in regard to issues like the AZ election.  I am less concerned with winning and losing elections at this point because I already believe the devil has sufficient grasp of the populous that we are on the downward spiral toward tribalism and generalized wickedness.  I don't expect to get to the full truth regarding most situations in this life.

In this particular instance, in my view the election day issues were so clear and provable that there didn't even have to be any actual fraud or conspiracy for the result to be untrustworthy due to the way voters were affected.  There have been other elections in the 2022 cycle which have been thrown out for similar, though admittedly much lower profile.

On the flip side, I think those who refuse to acknowledge plausibility are also acting with cognitive dissonance.  It is quite difficult to imagine that one particular election can be declared illegitimate without fearing the validation of throwing into question any and all elections and thus undermining trust in the entire system.  I think the fear of collapsing the system can just as easily lead people to dismiss things that should be given ample review.

In a perfect world, both sides would be willing to establish election rules that would lead to fully trustworthy and irrefutable results.  Unfortunately, only one side seems to express legitimate interest in the types of things that would actually bring that about. (shrug)

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23 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

and from some outlets they are saying this could be a county that could change the outcome

I don't believe the county from the video you originally posted could have had enough of an impact to alter the results.  The initial holdup was claimed based on the belief that if another county's votes were fraught with irregularities, the voters in his county would be disenfranchised by the flaws of another county with a much larger population.

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2 minutes ago, person0 said:

I don't believe the county from the video you originally posted could have had enough of an impact to alter the results.  The initial holdup was claimed based on the belief that if another county's votes were fraught with irregularities, the voters in his county would be disenfranchised by the flaws of another county with a much larger population.

Thank you for that clarification. That is what I thought, it seemed a smaller county, but then came across an article specifying that a county could change the election. Then I was confused.

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People are caught up in the idea that the Court couldn't prove intent.  But for me proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a high bar to clear for very good reasons.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that the Court found disenfranchisement of the vote.  If our vote is suppose to matter, if we are suppose to be able to "Trust" the results of an election this should be a huge red flag.  This should be triggering warning bells, this should have people of all political parties saying it does not matter if this was intentional, or incompetence, or some kind of system failure, it is simply unacceptable anywhere for any reason.

Now people might be inclined to think is is a little podunk place in Arizona that had no impact, on the end result.  Ok, but if we wait to fix it until it has an impact then it is to late. 

Bottom line if you like to dismiss cry's of vote fraud as the work of sore losers and wacky conspiracy theorist this courts findings should scare you spit less.  This court finding gives those claims and more importantly future clams legitimacy.  Unless steps are taken to secure the vote now the next election will have even more contested elections. And those that contest them will be seen as more and more reasonable.  This should be of great concern to everyone no matter their party, who expects votes to matter and to be honored.

 

 

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15 hours ago, person0 said:

don't know if you are describing me as a conspiracy theorist.

Not really, because I think the election conspiracies are wrong but mostly harmless. The Jan 6th crowd that tried to party it up in DC are the exception. They also aren’t terribly influential so I don’t worry about them. They’ll end up hurting their own side in the end, so it’s they need to learn that lesson themselves. 
 

A person becomes a dangerous conspiracy theorist when they slander innocent people like Alex Jones did or when they go full Nazi and start ranting about how much they hate Jews, etc. 

Edited by LDSGator
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56 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

People are caught up in the idea that the Court couldn't prove intent.  But for me proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a high bar to clear for very good reasons.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that the Court found disenfranchisement of the vote.  If our vote is suppose to matter, if we are suppose to be able to "Trust" the results of an election this should be a huge red flag.  This should be triggering warning bells, this should have people of all political parties saying it does not matter if this was intentional, or incompetence, or some kind of system failure, it is simply unacceptable anywhere for any reason.

Now people might be inclined to think is is a little podunk place in Arizona that had no impact, on the end result.  Ok, but if we wait to fix it until it has an impact then it is to late. 

Bottom line if you like to dismiss cry's of vote fraud as the work of sore losers and wacky conspiracy theorist this courts findings should scare you spit less.  This court finding gives those claims and more importantly future clams legitimacy.  Unless steps are taken to secure the vote now the next election will have even more contested elections. And those that contest them will be seen as more and more reasonable.  This should be of great concern to everyone no matter their party, who expects votes to matter and to be honored.

Thank you. Could you provide a link for us to read regarding this find. My quick search didn't pull anything up.

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42 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

People are caught up in the idea that the Court couldn't prove intent.  But for me proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a high bar to clear for very good reasons.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that the Court found disenfranchisement of the vote.  If our vote is suppose to matter, if we are suppose to be able to "Trust" the results of an election this should be a huge red flag.  This should be triggering warning bells, this should have people of all political parties saying it does not matter if this was intentional, or incompetence, or some kind of system failure, it is simply unacceptable anywhere for any reason.

Now people might be inclined to think is is a little podunk place in Arizona that had no impact, on the end result.  Ok, but if we wait to fix it until it has an impact then it is to late. 

Bottom line if you like to dismiss cry's of vote fraud as the work of sore losers and wacky conspiracy theorist this courts findings should scare you spit less.  This court finding gives those claims and more importantly future clams legitimacy.  Unless steps are taken to secure the vote now the next election will have even more contested elections. And those that contest them will be seen as more and more reasonable.  This should be of great concern to everyone no matter their party, who expects votes to matter and to be honored.

 

 

I am not sure if voting (as a keystone of freedom and liberty) at this point will be legitimate in the USA’s future without bloodshed being spilt.  And I have concluded that there are a great many things that the rising generation will be unwilling to spill their own blood to preserve or guarantee for themselves let alone others.  I was talking to a young fellow the other day and he said that many of his generation cannot wait for the boomer generation to die off with their worn-out ideas.

Freedoms and liberties and obligations seem to be a missing concern in the upcoming generations.  I know many think that old guys, like myself, always say such things about the younger generations – which is true, but it is also true that every preceding civilization has fallen and become irrelevant because it was not sustained through their succeeding generations.

 

The Traveler

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