The Chosen - A Review


Carborendum
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19 minutes ago, zil2 said:

To add to your new-found understanding: where in that clinical description (granted, I didn't read far) is the description of evil?  I was aware of a single individual who was themselves an evil spirit - again, not visually, but just aware of them as a specific person.  And that person could be commanded, and did leave.  Or so it seemed...  Lesson learned, anyway - keep far from evil spirits!

I have a few related comments here. These aren't contradictory or meant by way of an attempt to debate anything. They're just thoughts I had.

1. I do believe evil spirits exist. They're literal and real and exert influence in the world.

2. The brain has the potential to do all sorts of wack-a-doodle stuff without the help of any evil spirits.

3. I'm not sure a spirit has the ability to make our muscles not work or literally bind our tongue. (Like...what.... reached into our head with their demon fingers to the exact necessary spot in our brain and squeezes and, all of a sudden....?? I mean...maybe...  I'm just not sure...) But I tend towards the idea that that's not how things work. (Going back to the idea that I believe you suggested before. If they could do that sort of things why don't they do it more?)

4. How, exactly, does one keep far away from evil spirits who can come and attack someone in their sleep? On that last point...I'm reminded again... I never dedicated my home. I really need to do that.

5. I believe that people tend to attribute way more to evil spirits and Satan than feels correct to me. It's kind of almost a pet peeve of mine when people stand up in church and talk about how they were having a fight with their spouse and throw in some comment about how it was Satan really working on them. Or even worse...they say something about how their kids made them late for church and it was obvious Satan was trying to keep them from coming. It kind of bugs me. Not relative to anything but my own thoughts: (and please keep in mind here, once again, I'm not suggesting your experiences aren't valid...I'm just blabbing), but if all evil stems from Satan then...how, exactly, did Satan choose evil? We have the ability to exercise our agency to choose evil entirely outside of Satan's influence. The fact that Satan and his minions are out there influencing us makes it all the harder.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm familiar with that explanation.  But it doesn't explain Jesus' words and what is described:

Was Jesus talking to a spirit of epilepsy?

Why can't it be both?  Perhaps mental illness can make one more susceptible to the influence of or possession by evil spirits.

Also, children can choose evil, and one who persists, might invite the increasing influence of an evil spirit.

In short, I'm not ruling out any of the possibilities that seem reasonable to me as to how a child came to be possessed.

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Just now, zil2 said:

children can choose evil

Kind of depends on what you mean by evil. (I mean, specifically, those not yet of the age of accountability). If evil is defined as exercising agency to disobey God then, no, children cannot choose evil. If it's simply acts that cause harm then, sure. But is the cat who harms the mouse evil?

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1. Agree.

2. Yep.

3. See Joseph Smith's first vision experience already cited.  It appears that there are powers we mortals do not understand.  Perhaps we understood them as spirits, and thus Satan and his followers still have control of those powers that we here do not understand.  And no, I'm not envisioning demon fingers in my brain.  (But I'm betting if you opened a restaurant and had demon fingers with hot sauce on the menu, they'd be very popular.  See #2.)

As to, "if they could, why not do it more" - it goes back to what I said about possession: perhaps it's not easy, perhaps we have ways of protecting ourselves, perhaps there are bounds - see D&C 122:9.  And remember, I'm open to the idea that it was a dream intended to teach me something.  I'm also open to the idea that I had these experiences at spiritual low points - I've never recorded when they happened, let alone my spiritual state preceding them...

4. Well, it was more figurative "keep away" - that is, do your best to do those things which invite the Holy Ghost into your life and which would act as protection against evil spirits: keep covenants, etc.  Dedicating your home sounds like a good idea.  IMO, the way one becomes possessed is likely a gradual process of giving in to evil influences, then inviting them increasingly until you basically say, "OK, Satan, you're in charge, just tell me what to do."  Perhaps there are exceptions to this, I don't know, but that seems the most likely sequence.

Unlike you, I have no problem with the idea of a spirit basically latching on to a person like a leech (not literally the way a leech does) - occupying the same space as the person's body, or following them around, or whatever other mechanism.  I don't consider the "come out of him" type references in scripture as necessarily figurative (or flat-out wrong) - though I concede they could be.

5. I think it likely that Satan, et al, take advantage of our failings.  When I hear examples like you gave, I assume people are joking.  I do think Satan and his kind have the ability to suggest, for lack of any better word, and entice.  That doesn't mean every sin we commit was (only) because we were enticed - were that so, we might be able to claim entrapment. :)  That said, I also think that sometimes the smallest thing (like going to church on a specific day) can have an impact orders of magnitude greater than one would expect, and if Satan can figure that out ahead of time, I can easily imagine him doing whatever he's allowed to do to stop that smallest thing.

And yes, we're running into one of the problems with mortal language - using "evil" in multiple ways.  At the foundation, I think "evil" is simply an option available to all who have agency.  I don't think there is a force / energy / being out there that is the "source of evil".  It's just an option.

I doubt we're all that far off in our thinking, but perhaps I attribute stronger ability to Satan and his followers.  I don't know where their bounds are, but it seems a mistake to underestimate the enemy...

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27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Kind of depends on what you mean by evil. (I mean, specifically, those not yet of the age of accountability). If evil is defined as exercising agency to disobey God then, no, children cannot choose evil. If it's simply acts that cause harm then, sure. But is the cat who harms the mouse evil?

We have no idea what "of a child" means - at least, I don't.  Pre-accountability, sure, the kid's not held responsible.  Post-accountability...

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33 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Kind of depends on what you mean by evil. (I mean, specifically, those not yet of the age of accountability). If evil is defined as exercising agency to disobey God then, no, children cannot choose evil. If it's simply acts that cause harm then, sure. But is the cat who harms the mouse evil?

Children can murder, but we do not hold them to account for it. Children can knowingly lie and cheat and steal and beat up smaller children and even sexually abuse others, and in all cases we do not hold them to account for their actions. That is what it means to be below the age of accountability. But the point is, accountable or not, children can do such things. It is not obvious to me that children cannot choose to harbor evil spirits in the same way they can choose to harbor evil thoughts.

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Just now, Vort said:

Children can murder, but we do not hold them to account for it. Children can knowingly lie and cheat and steal and beat up smaller children and even sexually abuse others, and in all cases we do not hold them to account for their actions.*  That is what it means to be below the age of accountability. But the point is, accountable or not, children can do such things. It is not obvious to me that children cannot choose to harbor evil spirits in the same way they can choose to harbor evil thoughts.

* [EDIT: I mean legally. Small children cannot legally receive punitive actions from the government, and our understanding is that God himself will not hold them to account for such things. I do not mean to say that parents might not demand accounting from those children, to the limit the children are able. I think that's the parental duty.]

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Children can murder, but we do not hold them to account for it. Children can knowingly lie and cheat and steal and beat up smaller children and even sexually abuse others, and in all cases we do not hold them to account for their actions. That is what it means to be below the age of accountability. But the point is, accountable or not, children can do such things. It is not obvious to me that children cannot choose to harbor evil spirits in the same way they can choose to harbor evil thoughts.

It's a good point you make here. Emotionally it stresses me. But...yeah.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  Did He chemically alter the properties of the mud He made with His spittle and used to heal a blind man?

I don’t now that it’s right to say that there was an element of theater in many of Jesus’s healings (or other actions); but . . . there were certainly elements whose value lay in their symbolism or ritual meaning rather than their mechanical effectiveness.  And He meets people at their own level.  What would the effect have been if ...

OK. I see your point.  That's something to think about.

But if so, that would mean that Mary Magdalene could have only had some other ailment rather than actually being possessed as we think of it. 

YES!  I brought it back to the original topic!!!!

Edited by Carborendum
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22 minutes ago, Vort said:

Children can murder, but we do not hold them to account for it. Children can knowingly lie and cheat and steal and beat up smaller children and even sexually abuse others, and in all cases we do not hold them to account for their actions. That is what it means to be below the age of accountability. But the point is, accountable or not, children can do such things. It is not obvious to me that children cannot choose to harbor evil spirits in the same way they can choose to harbor evil thoughts.

I realized as I pondered on this that it seems to be backed by scripture:

Mosiah 4:14-15

And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the devil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.

But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Why can't it be both?  Perhaps mental illness can make one more susceptible to the influence of or possession by evil spirits.

It definitely can be both... I was just about to share an experience. But I'm trying to avoid talking about them per counsel we've received about the topic.

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Latter Day Saints don’t have any special understand, insight, or doctrine concerning demonic possession. 

I have never had any spiritual confirmation while studying any topic on Satan or demonic possession.

The Holy Ghost testifies of Jesus Christ.

I have no idea concerning Mary Magdalene’s lifestyle prior to becoming one of Jesus Christ’s most fervent disciples.  Nor do I care.  

The depiction of Mary on the Chosen did not offend me.  

The fact that Jesus cared for and spent time teaching Mary shows that He loved her as a daughter.  Christ’s love, power, and authority can redeem any who are willing to follow.

I don’t have time to be judging others.  Taking care of myself and my family keeps me plenty busy.

Edited by mikbone
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

But if so, that would mean that Mary Magdalene could have only had some other ailment rather than actually being possessed as we think of it. 

YES!  I brought it back to the original topic!!!!

I'd had the same thought. Luke states:

And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

And then in Mark we get:

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

That's about all we get on the matter. It could very well simply represent physical maladies she had that were cured that had nothing to do with righteousness. Seven maybe. Perhaps bi-polar, schizophrenia, headachey, grumpy, sneezy, sleepy and bashful.

That, of course, doesn't account for the possessed man where the evil spirits knew Jesus, named himself Legion (edit: I meant themselves. His pronouns are they/them. Literally this time.), begged to be sent to and then entered the body of 2000 pigs.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, zil2 said:

but perhaps I attribute stronger ability to Satan and his followers.  I don't know where their bounds are, but it seems a mistake to underestimate the enemy...

I think we agree. But I believe the bounds of that power are actually fairly explicit and nowhere near as unknown as some suggest. I won't go into details, because I never know what should and should not actually be discussed (beyond that which I know should not be discussed)...but.... Consider the various teaching in the temple on these things.

Perhaps we are more susceptible to the powers of Satan before making covenants. Making covenants is, in part, specifically to protect us from Satan.

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1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Latter Day Saints don’t have any special understand, insight, or doctrine concerning demonic possession. 

I don't believe this.

I'll explain for what it's worth.

To possess something is to own it. To be possessed is to be owned by -- or to put it another way, to belong to.

We do, indeed, have a great deal of understanding, insight, and doctrine concerning being owned by or belonging to both Christ and the adversary, and the opposing forces they represent. We have scads of information and teachings on being free from or ensnared in and by the powers of Satan, belonging to his great and abominable church or belonging to Christ's. More information than any other source on earth.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I have never had any spiritual confirmation while studying any topic on Satan or demonic possession.

The Holy Ghost testifies of Jesus Christ.

By implication you seem to be saying that Jesus Christ is the only thing the Holy Ghost testifies of. That idea is not correct. Well, it's correct in a round about way. Because all that is true is centered around Christ. But the Spirit testifies of truth. And certainly the truth about being possessed of an evil spirit is centered around Christ, particularly in that Christ is the way, the light and the truth to freedom from such possession.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I don’t have time to be judging others.

Nonsense. Judging others takes no time at all. :D;)

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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In the New Testament physical illness and demonic possession are often correlated, and physical healing and casting out demons is often associated.

Having suffered from brain illness/mental illness/neural inflammation…and having experienced extreme darkness even on my mission as a result…I believe our physical bodies are not just vessels for our spirits if the “front door is unlocked” by illness or other biological defect.

Mary could have been one of those unfortunates born with a biological condition or later developing a biological condition that allowed evil spirits greater access to her. This is what I suspect anyway, and if a homeless man walked up to me and banished the darkness inside that often threatens to drown me, you’d better believe I’d be his disciple forever after.

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59 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think we agree. But I believe the bounds of that power are actually fairly explicit and nowhere near as unknown as some suggest. I won't go into details, because I never know what should and should not actually be discussed (beyond that which I know should not be discussed)...but.... Consider the various teaching in the temple on these things.

Perhaps we are more susceptible to the powers of Satan before making covenants. Making covenants is, in part, specifically to protect us from Satan.

Certainly, if one doesn't know there is an enemy, or one hasn't been taught how to fight against that enemy, then one is more vulnerable.  That makes perfect sense to me.  It also makes sense to me that choosing, e.g. against the Light of Christ, something you know is less / worse / not good, will increase your risk, while choosing better will decrease it (not the risk of attack - quite the opposite - but your risk of being overcome).

I've always thought this bit in Moses 1:20 was revealing (emphasis mine):

Quote

And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.

I believe some of Satan's power comes when we fear him - it suggests, in a sense, having faith in his ability to harm us - after all, if we didn't believe it, why would we fear?  If we can overcome that fear - e.g. by turning to God, remembering His power - then Satan loses his power over us.  Sounds simplistic, but I believe there's something in there, even if I can't express it well.

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41 minutes ago, CrimsonKairos said:

In the New Testament physical illness and demonic possession are often correlated, and physical healing and casting out demons is often associated.

Having suffered from brain illness/mental illness/neural inflammation…and having experienced extreme darkness even on my mission as a result…I believe our physical bodies are not just vessels for our spirits if the “front door is unlocked” by illness or other biological defect.

Mary could have been one of those unfortunates born with a biological condition or later developing a biological condition that allowed evil spirits greater access to her. This is what I suspect anyway, and if a homeless man walked up to me and banished the darkness inside that often threatens to drown me, you’d better believe I’d be his disciple forever after.

Sorry for your suffering, Crimson.  May the Lord help you endure. :)

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51 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Sorry for your suffering, Crimson.  May the Lord help you endure. :)

Thanks zil2, I don’t know what the future holds but thankfully I know Who holds the future and I’m committed to sticking around until He calls me home.

I liked your point about choosing Christ often paradoxically leading to encountering more darkness/temptation but having an increased capacity to overcome it. Gels with my personal experience and observations of others’ experiences.

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My vote is NOT sleep paralysis.

There was one time when I was waking up from sleeping and I was attacked.  In this case it hurled me across the room into the closet doors and was just as Joseph Smith described in his experience otherwise.

It was very real and very dark. It feels as if the darkness is trying to destroy you.  I cried out to the Savior, and it was his power that saved me in that instance.  After that, of course I was dropped and fell as I struggled to understand what had just happened.

For me I know it was NO dream as I was awake the entire time.  However, it DID occur right as I was waking, and I would think that perhaps when one is in a stupor or sleep that it would make a prime time for an attack. 

My experience woke me up just about immediately.  I've heard people talk about sleep paralysis, but that doesn't account for being tossed across a room or being absolutely awake instantly (like, wide awake in that instance).

Otherwise, it was similar, it was as if I could not move and it was all I could do to try to cry out to the Lord. 

I feel that those who have faith in the Lord and turn to him are protected by him and the angels of heaven.  When we ask for his help and ask for him in those situations, help will come. 

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On 1/30/2023 at 9:41 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

James and John’s father, at least, was wealthy enough to have multiple fishing boats and hired servants.  And I remember a BYU prof of mine saying that Galilean fish were sold as far away as Rome itself.  So yeah; the four fishermen apostles were probably about as solidly “middle class” as one could be in first-century Judea.

I just read something that was worth interjecting here.  The curator for the Museum of the Bible which preserves early editions of the Guttenberg Bible, the Coverdale Bible, and the KJV (and facsimiles of the Dead Sea scrolls) said something very interesting.  The Bible was KEY to spreading literacy around the world.

Deut 6:6-9 was an injunction to require EVERY child of Israel to read and study the Law. A son of a carpenter or shepherd would be taught to read and write by studying the Law of Moses, and all the words of all the prophets.

The Fisherman was able to keep his own in a discussion with a Priest in the ability to read and expound on the Bible.  A 12 -year-old Jesus would have been expected to have read it enough to know the stories.  What amazed them was his understanding and ability to interpret and apply that knowledge to questions that adults would discuss.

But it is entirely possible that fishermen would have been well educated.  And with education, came a LOT of understanding.

Edited by Carborendum
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59 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just read something that was worth interjecting here.  The curator for the Museum of the Bible which preserves early editions of the Guttenberg Bible, the Coverdale Bible, and the KJV (and facsimiles of the Dead Sea scrolls) said something very interesting.  The Bible was KEY to spreading literacy around the world.

Deut 6:6-9 was an injunction to require EVERY child of Israel to read and study the Law. A son of a carpenter or shepherd would be taught to read and write by studying the Law of Moses, and all the words of all the prophets.

The Fisherman was able to keep his own in a discussion with a Priest in the ability to read and expound on the Bible.  A 12 -year-old Jesus would have been expected to have read it enough to know the stories.  What amazed them was his understanding and ability to interpret and apply that knowledge to questions that adults would discuss.

But it is entirely possible that fishermen would have been well educated.  And with education, came a LOT of understanding.

There is a common idea, both inside and outside of Christianity, that Jesus was born in poverty to a single mother, reared in utter obscurity, and spent his ministry consorting with prostitutes and generally the dregs of society. He supposedly called his closest disciples from the ignorant and unlearned, and generally turned up his nose toward those with money and societal position. All of these things are false, rank lies, and all of them can be disproven by nothing more than reading the New Testament. The problem is that a great many people, like Satan himself when talking to the mortal Jesus, will bend and distort the plain meaning of scripture to further their personal ambitions and sociopolitical ends. And sadly, the masses who truly are ignorant of scripture, having never invested any significant time into reading or understanding the words of scripture, are deceived by such lies.

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