Question about Doctrine and Covenants 129 and Genesis 19


SpiritDragon
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In D&C 129 we are given three grand keys for discerning the nature of messengers whether they be resurrected holy messengers (angels), premortal spirits of just men made perfect (possibly also post-mortal spirits of just men made perfect that are still awaiting resurrection), or a devil in disguise. It seems that as the resurrection had not yet taken place and that all messengers we receive on this earth have either lived here or will live here, that all Old Testament heavenly messengers (still often called angels) should be spirits, should they not? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding or misrepresenting something, but this is my understanding.

With that being the case, here is the seeming conflict with Genesis 19 (and likely others, but that's the text that caused me to see what appears to be an incongruence to figure out): The angels that come to rescue Lot and his family, seem to be of physical form able to grab him and pull him inside the door 

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Also in the 3rd verse, these men ate the meal Lot had prepared for them. This also seems to suggest physicality as it coincides with a proof given in the account of Jesus' resurrection that he ate broiled fish after explaining that 'a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have'. Then in verse 16 of Genesis 19, the men take lot and his family members by the hand and convey them out of the city. If these messengers were spirits as one might otherwise suppose, this should not be possible given the grand keys given in D&C 129 that the spirits would not offer a hand that could not be felt. This leaves the apparent possibilities in my mind that either these men were mortals sent to help Lot, they were somehow resurrected beings before Christ, or there is something missing from or inaccurate about D&C 129.

Is there any commentary on these men visiting Lot (also introduced as angels) by any church leaders that anyone is aware of that helps explain this disconnect, or any other insights group members may have to share? 

 

Thanks, SD

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JST 18:22 also describes them as "holy men, and were sent forth after the order of God"; and the footnote for 19:1 says "angels" is from the Hebrew word for "messengers".  All this suggests they were men who held the Melchizedek priesthood.

Also, one possibility you missed is translated men - thus, physical, not yet resurrected beings.

(OT: Yes, this is zil, now zil2, because zil is seriously messed up. :D )

Edited by zil2
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57 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

It seems that as the resurrection had not yet taken place and that all messengers we receive on this earth have either lived here or will live here, that all Old Testament heavenly messengers (still often called angels) should be spirits, should they not?

There was an entire city full of worthy, righteous men and women that were bodily translated at the time of the patriarchs.

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49 minutes ago, laronius said:

Here is the JST version:

15 And they were angry with Lot and came near to break the door, but the angels of God, which were holy men, put forth their hand and pulled Lot into the house unto them, and shut the door.

Here is what the Bible Dictionary says about angels

 

Angels

These are messengers of the Lord and are spoken of in the epistle to the Hebrews as “ministering spirits” (Heb. 1:14). We learn from latter-day revelation that there are two classes of heavenly beings who minister for the Lord: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied) or who have once had a mortal body and have died and are awaiting the Resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word angel means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah, etc. (D&C 129).

There are many references to the work of angels in the Old Testament. In some passages the “angel of the Lord” speaks as the voice of God Himself (Gen. 22:11–12). The word angel is also sometimes used to designate a human messenger, as in JST Gen. 19:15 (Appendix), and may have some application also in Matt. 13:39–42.

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25 minutes ago, zil2 said:

AussieDelight.jpg.81e492955ed268365cf27a4eaea20e76.jpg

Don't tell anyone else this, but I actually brought my daughter a fountain pen, complete with ink bottle, for Christmas. I actually picked it up myself, without using gloves or any protective measures. I can't remember the brand, but it started with L and I think it was a brand that you and Annatess occasionally mentioned. 

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21 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Don't tell anyone else this, but I actually brought my daughter a fountain pen, complete with ink bottle, for Christmas. I actually picked it up myself, without using gloves or any protective measures. I can't remember the brand, but it started with L and I think it was a brand that you and Annatess occasionally mentioned. 

Fabulous! :)  Probably Lamy - very popular brand.  I won't tell a soul, really.  If anyone else finds out, it'll have to be because they read it here. :D

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

There was an entire city full of worthy, righteous men and women that were bodily translated at the time of the patriarchs.

A truly great insight. Thanks. A great supply of messengers on the order of John the beloved and the three nephites to call upon as needed.

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