Utah HB215. The one with the vouchers and scholarships.


Backroads
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This seems to be filling up my newsfeed, and I'm trying to wrap my head around just what my feelings are.

Here's the current bill. In essence, a scholarship/voucher fund for those who want to pay for homeschooling or private schools. 

My thoughts pro on the bill: Education truly is the parents responsibility and I can't argue with them having a choice in what that looks like. While I doubt the money offered is enough to help the truly destitute attend private school, it sure would be helpful to those who are just poor enough for the option of private school to be a proper struggle. While the scholarship for homeschooling seemed shockingly high, it is my understanding that homeschool expenses are going to be heavily limited scrutinized, so it's just not the worry it could be. Plus there's a connected teacher raise, and I wouldn't say no to that. 

My thoughts con on the bill: My big one is that it's so limited. Why should one family get to take advantage but not another family? The truly destitute and unaware are likely not going to have the know-how or means to apply for the bill, so likely the money is to go to the people in, ironically, less need. And while this may sound better and whataboutist, but how is this going to help those that don't have access to private schools? 

My mixed thought: IDEA. Under this bill, the private schools are not required to adhere to IDEA even with receiving the public money. I'm conflicted. Part of me says, that's my tax money, you better follow federal law. Then again, with being okay with the rest of the bill, why be picky about this when my tax money is potentially going to religious schools? I also figure, parents of students with learning disabilities can shop around for a school that will accept and doing a solid job of working with their kid, or simply return to their protected right under public school.

Any areas where I am woefully wrong? 

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50 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Part of me says, that's my tax money, you better follow federal law.

This is the key point why homeschoolers and freedom based private schoolers should shun this bill.

Any public funds for ANYthing that the private industry can do on its own is a bribe to do the government's bidding.  It is NEVER because they're trying to help.  That's just a ruse.

If homeschoolers want autonomy to teach their values to their children, then they have to do so without government funds or they will soon have their children taken from them -- especially with conditions like we see in public schools today.  The purse strings are complicit in what has happened to public schools.  If the purse is extended to private and homeschool, it will infect homeschool with the same mind virus.

I fear that if the bill passes, too many homeschool families will be unwittingly giving up their rights.  But bribes (especially veiled bribes) always have strings attached.  And most homeschoolers are just innocent enough to be ignorant of such things.

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Any public funds for ANYthing that the private industry can do on its own is a bribe to do the government's bidding.  It is NEVER because they're trying to help.  That's just a ruse.

Agreed. The correct course is to prevent government from collecting the taxes in the first place, not to crowd in for a place at the feed bucket when tax distribution comes around.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

This is the key point why homeschoolers and freedom based private schoolers should shun this bill.

Any public funds for ANYthing that the private industry can do on its own is a bribe to do the government's bidding.  It is NEVER because they're trying to help.  That's just a ruse.

If homeschoolers want autonomy to teach their values to their children, then they have to do so without government funds or they will soon have their children taken from them -- especially with conditions like we see in public schools today.  The purse strings are complicit in what has happened to public schools.  If the purse is extended to private and homeschool, it will infect homeschool with the same mind virus.

I fear that if the bill passes, too many homeschool families will be unwittingly giving up their rights.  But bribes (especially veiled bribes) always have strings attached.  And most homeschoolers are just innocent enough to be ignorant of such things.

Ooh, I like this point. Last I heard and understood, right now homeschoolers and private school families are not beholden to any particular federal requirements (hence the potential concern over IDEA) except for a "prove you're learning" portfolio or assessment.

Your comment leaves me wondering what this portfolio will require. And, while everything is, here's access to funds, do what you will, for now, what will this become down the road?

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50 minutes ago, Vort said:

Agreed. The correct course is to prevent government from collecting the taxes in the first place, not to crowd in for a place at the feed bucket when tax distribution comes around.

I saw a few arguments for just divvying up the educational funds and giving those to the family,  but I see similar issues (plus I don't know if the economics would be what people would like.) I haven't been able to fully release myself from the idea that we need public education access at least on a community level, but I also think that's where the winds are blowing where it truly may become, not necessarily every man (student) for themselves, but the only way for education and growth to move forward if it's completely independent, if it means some get left behind. Kind of we are now or soon to be sowing what our society has reaped, for good or for bad. 

Edited by Backroads
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9 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I haven't been able to fully release myself from the idea that we need public education access at least on a community level

For the record, I am not in favor of doing away with public education. I am in favor of immediate and drastic reforms in public education. Absent that, I am in favor of people voluntarily pulling their children out of the public schooling system.

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Oh wow.  I'm happy to see this happening.  I hope it becomes a thing and spreads across the nation.

Competition makes things better.  Schools should live in a world where if they don't provide a wanted service and someone else does, that school won't be having the students or money.

And if folks are passing out at the big amount vouchered to homeschoolers, a good reaction is to understand that's based on what the citizenry gets taxed per child.  it should be an eye opening moment.

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25 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh wow.  I'm happy to see this happening.  I hope it becomes a thing and spreads across the nation.

Competition makes things better.  Schools should live in a world where if they don't provide a wanted service and someone else does, that school won't be having the students or money.

And if folks are passing out at the big amount vouchered to homeschoolers, a good reaction is to understand that's based on what the citizenry gets taxed per child.  it should be an eye opening moment.

In this case it seems to be double what other Utah students get for their own funding, which is I think is a big part of the balking, plus a fear it would be just a check they can spend on whatever. 

But my understanding is that's it'll be something what is potentially available if they can submit receipts for qualifying this, that, and whatsit. 

Funnily enough I know a homeschooler that is now against the bill when he learned it wouldn't be just pure homeschooling support to their own judgment. He has four kids they're homeschooling and was hoping he could use the money to keep either he or his wife home full-time (paycheck for homeschool style) and was disappointed it wouldn't work that way. In fairness, I see his point. He and wife try to have opposite shifts, but it's not perfect and they still spend a fair amount on childcare. Being able to have a parent home would be the biggest boon to their homeschool.

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14 minutes ago, Vort said:

For the record, I am not in favor of doing away with public education. I am in favor of immediate and drastic reforms in public education. Absent that, I am in favor of people voluntarily pulling their children out of the public schooling system.

I think my ideal would be to truly place the crux of public education at a community level (I don't know if that would be city or country or what, but I think we have too much overhead). Send whatever funding percentage we decided to decree to that level, maybe set a few must-have-to-be-a-productive-citizen standards at a higher level, and go from there. 

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24 minutes ago, Vort said:

For the record, I am not in favor of doing away with public education. I am in favor of immediate and drastic reforms in public education. Absent that, I am in favor of people voluntarily pulling their children out of the public schooling system.

There are a few flaws with this thinking, imo. Firstly, it implies that drastic reform of policy, process, rules, etc., has any chance and actually reforming the issues at hand. It might help...maybe...but it's like any organization -- it's run by people. As long as the people therein are evil, the system will be evil, no matter what reform occurs. The reform needs to be in people's hearts or any system reform will fail. Secondly, and this I think matters as much, even if some level of system reform worked on the education system itself, it wouldn't reform/fix the other major problem I have with putting my kids into public education.......the other students.

Even when I was in K-12 school in the 70s and 80s, looking back, the worst part was the other kids. I would not, even now, intentionally subject my children to the things I faced because of other kids. The bullying, the immoral influences, the bad examples, the importance of social hierarchy, etc. etc.

Yes, I understand that children actually need to be exposed to these sorts of things. Kids have to face the bad to learn how to, you know...face it. But I believe 5 years old is too young for what they must face, even 40 years back...and much more so now. And what's going on with students now-a-days...I'm honestly not sure 12, 13, 14, etc., is even old enough. Depends on the kid, of course. And having not been totally destroyed at 5, 6, 7, perhaps 12, 13, 14 would be fine. I don't know.

It's a huge challenge to consider. I lament that I must raise my children in such a world. And I don't know the answers, beyond the fact that there's no way I'm sending my kids to school at 5. And my motivation is not driven by the teachers' or the system's problems. It's driven by the other kids.

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33 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There are a few flaws with this thinking, imo.

While I don't disagree with anything you wrote, my point is that public education serves a critical purpose in US society that is not easily offloaded. The blunt fact is that the majority of parents Will Not Homeschool or do anything else such as private schooling. Part of the reason is financial, part of the reason is simply not caring about their children, but mostly the reason is that public schooling is just how it's done. People will not, perhaps cannot, think outside that box. And for all its myriad faults and evils, public schooling is mostly better than no schooling, which is effectively the alternative for most children.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

And for all its myriad faults and evils, public schooling is mostly better than no schooling, which is effectively the alternative for most children.

I'll have to think on this. But my inclination is to not see it this way. I'm not saying no schooling is better. I'm saying they both feel as bad as each other in many cases. (I mean in the most grievous cases of terrible public schooling, no schooling might be better).

I try and look at this from an eternal perspective. Who is better off? The uneducated or the corruptly educated? To be learned is good... but there's a big IF attached to that.

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47 minutes ago, Vort said:

While I don't disagree with anything you wrote, my point is that public education serves a critical purpose in US society that is not easily offloaded. The blunt fact is that the majority of parents Will Not Homeschool or do anything else such as private schooling. Part of the reason is financial, part of the reason is simply not caring about their children, but mostly the reason is that public schooling is just how it's done. People will not, perhaps cannot, think outside that box. And for all its myriad faults and evils, public schooling is mostly better than no schooling, which is effectively the alternative for most children.

Indeed...  We have to remember that Public Schools did not always exist...  They came into existence to try and address issues they had with "Home Schooling"  aka parental apathy.   We haven't solved that 'root' issue, yet (and maybe not ever in a fallen world).  With out that fix no matter what we try, we are simply trying to bail out the water faster then it comes in.

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4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not saying no schooling is better. I'm saying they both feel as bad as each other in many cases.

I'll give an example supporting this.

I was discussing last week's CFM lesson (covering John 1) with my daughter.  I asked if she had wondered what John meant by "the word" in verse 1.  She said she had brought it up during companion study when she was on her mission.  Her companion responded,"Well, that's what's in the scriptures.  Are you saying it's wrong?"

"No, I'm just wondering what it is saying."

This public schooled companion declared, "It's saying that Jesus is the Word. Duh."  She's clearly a deep thinker.

I related to my daughter my experience with the "helmet of salvation."  She nodded her head and gave a grunt of frustration.

So, was this companion better off than an uneducated person?  No, she only had the "slave's education."  Not the education that liberates and expands the mind.

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Satan, being a wise strategist, and like everybody else, having limited resources, is likely to make his strongest attacks on organisations and institutions that make the biggest difference. Schools are at or near the top of the list of organisations with the potential to make the biggest difference. That seems like sufficient reason to me to either prepare children, starting at a very young age, to withstand the attacks of Satan, or to get them away from the places where his attacks are mostly likely to be the strongest.

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12 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Satan, being a wise strategist, and like everybody else, having limited resources, is likely to make his strongest attacks on organisations and institutions that make the biggest difference. Schools are at or near the top of the list of organisations with the potential to make the biggest difference. That seems like sufficient reason to me to either prepare children, starting at a very young age, to withstand the attacks of Satan, or to get them away from the places where his attacks are mostly likely to be the strongest.

A wiser strategist will use the enemy's tool against them.  Or he will use something perceived to be good (with a hidden catch) to lure people in to their ultimate demise.

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Well, y'all'll be happy to know that the preschool teacher from Longmeadow Massachusetts who was filming some of her nude OnlyFans content on school grounds, got fired as soon as they found out.

 

But y'all'll be less happy to hear that a school district in Bakersfield CA has a policy of hiding a student's transition to another gender from their parents.

image.png.7049417410e6451fb0ed17dcb77e4f7e.png

 

 

Daycare in North Carolina using a doll to teach nonbinary gender identities to 4-5 year olds.

 

Central Bucks School District in Doyelstown, PA sponsored a "queer prom" for kids as young as 13.  A member of the school board, and a democrat state senator is listed as sponsor.  Every kid got a gift bag with a condom, lube, and info from Planned Parenthood.  (I'm not gonna link the video.  You can PM me your email address if you'd like a link.)

 

These are just news stories from this week.  They just keep coming and coming.

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It's a good and relevant question Gator.  We homeschooled our kids up through high school.  I met hundreds of homeschooling parents, maybe a thousand.  I never met a single one who thought they knew everything necessary.   Much effort in finding good curricula, homeschooling clubs and co-ops.   I stink at math, my wife said "I can get them through algebra, then we'll need to figure something out."  We figured something out.  

When it came to teaching stuff, we got a curricula.  We taught from the book.  I would read next day's lesson, and 90% of was new to me.  Then I taught it the next day.  That's a big part of homeschooling life - staying one lesson ahead of the kiddo.  Lots and lots and lots and lots of questions were answered with "I don't have the faintest clue - lets find out together".  

There were co-ops and homeschool clubs.  Someone knew chemistry, someone knew math, someone knew music, anyone can teach history.  

Now, a truthful answer to your question has to account for the existence of some parents who screw up their kids.  Parents who never join any co-ops, who I never met, because they were off in their secluded house with tinfoil over the windows to keep the bad thoughts out.  We know parents like this exist.  But those parents exist both in homeschooling and public school settings. 

You might think public school is a way to catch the bad parents, and that's sometimes true, but each state also has homeschooling standards.  Colorado has parents either periodically submit standardized test scores, or have their kids evaluated by a "qualified person" at grades 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11.  We went the 'qualified person' route, and had our kids evaluated by someone with a masters degree in special ed, CO teaching license, 20 years teaching experience, and 7 years experience giving evaluations.   You don't turn in your paperwork, the state comes a'knocking.  They never showed up at our door, because we exceeded CO homeschooling requirements. 

 

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43 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's a good and relevant question Gator.  We homeschooled our kids up through high school.  I met hundreds of homeschooling parents, maybe a thousand.  I never met a single one who thought they knew everything necessary.   Much effort in finding good curricula, homeschooling clubs and co-ops.   I stink at math, my wife said "I can get them through algebra, then we'll need to figure something out."  We figured something out.  

When it came to teaching stuff, we got a curricula.  We taught from the book.  I would read next day's lesson, and 90% of was new to me.  Then I taught it the next day.  That's a big part of homeschooling life - staying one lesson ahead of the kiddo.  Lots and lots and lots and lots of questions were answered with "I don't have the faintest clue - lets find out together".  

There were co-ops and homeschool clubs.  Someone knew chemistry, someone knew math, someone knew music, anyone can teach history.  

Now, a truthful answer to your question has to account for the existence of some parents who screw up their kids.  Parents who never join any co-ops, who I never met, because they were off in their secluded house with tinfoil over the windows to keep the bad thoughts out.  We know parents like this exist.  But those parents exist both in homeschooling and public school settings. 

You might think public school is a way to catch the bad parents, and that's sometimes true, but each state also has homeschooling standards.  Colorado has parents either periodically submit standardized test scores, or have their kids evaluated by a "qualified person" at grades 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11.  We went the 'qualified person' route, and had our kids evaluated by someone with a masters degree in special ed, CO teaching license, 20 years teaching experience, and 7 years experience giving evaluations.   You don't turn in your paperwork, the state comes a'knocking.  They never showed up at our door, because we exceeded CO homeschooling requirements. 

 

Thanks, appreciate your response. Like I’ve said before, my only experience for years with home schoolers was awful. The poor girl was, in her own words “in a prison”. It’s more complicated and sadder than that of course. Also, in the dojang we’ve had a few home schoolers come and go. One I wouldn’t trust with a cat-and I hate cats. But most are fairly normal. 

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1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

@NeuroTypical-in your view, how many homeschoolers are humble (for lack of a better word) enough to admit what they don’t know?
 

I’m not being funny here, but generally speaking just being a parent doesn't mean you’ve mastered high school chemistry.

So what? A... who needs high school chemistry? and B... Google and Wikipedia have mastered it. 😀

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1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

Lol. 
 

I want to like home schooling more than I do. I hated high school and I have zero love for teachers unions. Still though, I have concerns. 

Seriously though. I don't recall a thing about high school chemistry. And yet I'm a functioning adult. 

Reading, writing, arithmetic. That's important. If you can't give your kids that you've got a problem. The rest is icing. 

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Seriously though. I don't recall a thing about high school chemistry. And yet I'm a functioning adult. 

Reading, writing, arithmetic. That's important. If you can't give your kids that you've got a problem. The rest is icing. 

Understand. Glad it worked out for you, and I’m with you in forgetting high school chemistry, but I’m not a functional adult. At all. 

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14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Seriously though. I don't recall a thing about high school chemistry. And yet I'm a functioning adult. 

Reading, writing, arithmetic. That's important. If you can't give your kids that you've got a problem. The rest is icing. 

I just happened to have had a relevant conversation last night with my second son (the lawyer, father of my granddaughters). He's moving to Houston later this year and has found a local immersion school that would give his daughter eight hours a day of school instruction using Spanish. My son and his wife are very interested, but not for eight hours a day. More like two. They might be willing to put her in for half-days. They have written to the principal to ask how much flexibility there is. No response yet, but they aren't holding their breath. In my son's words, "If the principal says 'My way or the highway', we'll be taking the highway." They are already looking into other possibilities.

This is where my son told me something unexpected, something that made me feel good personally but very bad for homeschooling in general. His basic statement was: You and mamma did homeschooling in a way where we were taught to value learning as an end in itself. You taught us math, and also why it was fun and why it was important. You taught us reading, and also encouraged it a lot. In contrast (says my son), the parents of most of the kids he knew who were homeschooled seemed to not care much about learning or education per se. They were content to do whatever the minimal requirement was. Their view of homeschooling was that they were keeping their children away from harm and evil, while my wife's and my view was that we had the privilege and joy of teaching our children all the cool things in life in our very own home, rather than farming them out to state-sponsored daycare for forty-five hours a week.

I don't remember having considered that viewpoint, and it was eye-opening. As I wrote above, it was personally fulfilling but a dim view of the future of homeschooling. When the parents themselves don't much value learning, the children don't get the best experience.

My son brought up something else I remember well. When they were little (but not that little, say around ten or twelve), my wife picked up some so-called Christian textbooks on science. I thumbed through them and found them quite awful, but not bad enough that I refused to let the children use them. One was called something like "God's beautiful earth" and featured deep scientific teachings like, "Look at this beautiful world! God created it. The oceans hold much marine life. God created them." It was embarrassing to read. No scientific principles were conveyed, and for that matter no important religious principles, either. In retrospect, it's obvious that the books were targeted toward homeschooling parents who neither knew nor cared much about science, but who were looking for something to provide some science learning of some sort to their children. At that point, you can start making strong arguments that public school is actually better (in that narrow area) than homeschooling.

I fear that this might be very widespread, and that my wife and I might be a distinct minority with respect to our feelings on the importance and beauty of education. I hope that things improve going forward.

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