Utah HB215. The one with the vouchers and scholarships.

[LDSGator]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

I guess I haven't seen that culturally. I'll take your word on it. My view on Ph.Ds comes from interacting with people who have them, rather than a cultural thing. I'm not actually down on Ph.Ds They just don't, in and of themselves, impress me as much any longer.

I understand. 
 

It’s fascinating how our views have grown in different ways. Twenty years ago I would have agreed with you and been sort of dismissive about advanced education. The older I get the more important I think it is! 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

people have moved so much against formal education that the pendulum might need to swing back in this case as well.

I think, partially, that the pendulum that needs to swing is the nature of formal education itself. The attitude against it stems from what it has become.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, LDSGator said:

I understand. 
 

It’s fascinating how our views have grown in different ways. Twenty years ago I would have agreed with you and been sort of dismissive about advanced education. The older I get the more important I think it is! 

I'm not dismissive. If I were hiring for certain jobs I'd demand it. I just have a strong "It depends" point of view on the matter. The degree, in and of itself, isn't fully persuasive.

[LDSGator]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not dismissive. If I were hiring for certain jobs I'd demand it. I just have a strong "It depends" point of view on the matter. The degree, in and of itself, isn't fully persuasive.

Oh okay. Now I seem to understand your point more. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

Oh okay. Now I seem to understand your point more. 

I may not have been fully clear. Sometimes it's trying to convey a sense of something that one hasn't ever fully interpreted into concrete terms. I'm not anti-advanced degrees. I've just known some who have them that seem to have gotten nothing but a swollen head and inflexible thoughtless views from it. That has put a distaste in my mouth in the past.

And you probably need to put my specific expertise into the mix to really understand my point of view. That is to say...music. I know my stuff when it comes to music. But my hands-on (and educated) experience, combined with my unique way of thinking, has led me to some unconventional viewpoints on the matter. And boy howdy, if you think the conflicts I've had on this forum have been something, you should see the debates I've had with music Ph.D. folk. Garr! Freaking closed-minded trained-monkeys! Not an original thought in their collective brains. They cannot see past their "education" to actually THINK!

And, of course, they all treat me like I'm the idiot and I just don't understand. And their degrees gives them the weight of authority in the matter, so of course they aren't going to consider someone's view who doesn't have that advanced degree.

Maybe I'm bitter.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I may not have been fully clear. Sometimes it's trying to convey a sense of something that one hasn't ever fully interpreted into concrete terms. I'm not anti-advanced degrees. I've just known some who have them that seem to have gotten nothing but a swollen head and inflexible thoughtless views from it. That has put a distaste in my mouth in the past.

And you probably need to put my specific expertise into the mix to really understand my point of view. That is to say...music. I know my stuff when it comes to music. But my hands-on (and educated) experience, combined with my unique way of thinking, has led me to some unconventional viewpoints on the matter. And boy howdy, if you think the conflicts I've had on this forum have been something, you should see the debates I've had with music Ph.D. folk. Garr! Freaking closed-minded trained-monkeys! Not an original thought in their collective brains. They cannot see past their "education" to actually THINK!

And, of course, they all treat me like I'm the idiot and I just don't understand. And their degrees gives them the weight of authority in the matter, so of course they aren't going to consider someone's view who doesn't have that advanced degree.

Maybe I'm bitter.

Ironically, my grandfather had a Ph.D in music from Columbia! 

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, LDSGator said:

Ironically, my grandfather had a Ph.D in music from Columbia! 

I KNEW there was a reason I didn't like you!!

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I KNEW there was a reason I didn't like you!!

I thought it was because of my cocaine habit. 😉

[askandanswer]

52 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I thought it was because of my cocaine habit. 😉

Juse one reason among.......thousands of others.

[LDSGator]

16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Juse one reason among.......thousands of others.

You are being conservative. 

[askandanswer]

48 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

You are being conservative. 

It was one of those tough decisions about being polite or telling the truth,

[Ironhold]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:28 PM, Backroads said:

Formal schooling, for good or for bad, does tend to be more rigid on a timeline. Though I have a theory anxious parents helped contribute this.

 

7 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure public school's job is or should be to teach deep thinking. Moreover, I'm not fully convinced deep thinking can be taught or learned. I'm also not sure that's the job of homeschooling. Nor am I really convinced that deep thinking is individually important. I mean in the aggregate it is, but individually, there are an awful lot of people who don't think deeply who are, have been, and will be just fine.

School is to teach useful skills. That's the point as I see it. People need to know how to read and write. Beyond that, specialization in any given thing needs paths for people to go down. We need ('need' being a relative word) doctors and philosophers and scientists and engineers.

 

 

I have high-functioning autism, and was not diagnosed as such until well into adulthood. So, I'm speaking from experience here ->

 

Most public schools are set up to essentially run kids through on an assembly line. The goal is to ensure that every kid gets a basic amount of knowledge in a standardized fashion so as to ensure that they grow up to become more or less functional adults and can hold basic jobs in society. 

The issue is with the term "standardized". 

For someone who is "average", this might or might not largely work. But for many students, "sitting in a classroom for 8 - 9 hours a day" is the worst thing that can happen. They need to be active as part of their learning process, and may even need to be given extra material that challenges them if they're truly at the top levels.

Remember the old Calvin and Hobbes comic strip? How Calvin could have full conversations in Jacobean English with his mother, create elaborate fantasies in his head, and may have literally brought his stuffed tiger to life with the power of his imagination? But how he was near the bottom of his class in grades? In real life, kids like Calvin are bored out of their skulls by being in a classroom all day and learn best when they're going at their own pace and have motivation. These kids are often highly intelligent, and may have already taught themselves the subject matter being given to their peers. 

That's the big failing with public schooling, and part of why many parents go for private schools, magnet schools, or homeschooling so that they can adjust the speed and nature of the curriculum accordingly. 

[Ironhold]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

My bad. 
 

My point is that many people seem to be intimidated by higher education. So much so that our culture makes it clear that “just because someone is educated doesn’t mean they are smarter than anyone else.” “I’m from the school of hard knocks.” Or, my personal favorite,”I did my own research so I don’t need to listen to no one with one of them degrees.” 
 

We get those messages all the time. In fact, we get them so much that the pendulum needs to swing back to “Sarah has a Ph.D in X. Maybe she does know more than me even if it’s an interest to me.” 

Speaking as an MBA?

Two of the most hateful, bigoted, and willfully ignorant people I have ever dealt with in my life had their doctorates in their chosen fields. One was an avowed atheist with a degree in social sciences, the other was a minister with a theology degree, and they both were of the opinion that their doctorate made them all-knowing and anyone who didn't bow down and worship at their feet was sub-human. 

Even the best of academics and professors can quickly find themselves losing touch with life outside of the Ivory Tower that is academia if they don't humble themselves enough to routinely interact with people from other walks of life. 

These two individuals, however, are the very definition of arrogance, to the point that they actually threw temper tantrums like angry children whenever they were presented with contradictory information that they couldn't refute or deny. 

Imagine that you're an average Dick or Jane. You've got a high school degree, and perhaps some trade school or on-the-job training. You encounter someone from academia who is like this, a raving egomaniac who doesn't believe you have the right to even speak with them unless it's to express your amazement. How are you going to react? What is your impression of academia going to be? 

It's not going to be very positive, is it? 

So next time you encounter someone who seems distrustful of those with post-graduate degrees, consider that perhaps their reaction is based on disgust or anger. 

[The Folk Prophet]

43 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

 

 

I have high-functioning autism, and was not diagnosed as such until well into adulthood. So, I'm speaking from experience here ->

 

Most public schools are set up to essentially run kids through on an assembly line. The goal is to ensure that every kid gets a basic amount of knowledge in a standardized fashion so as to ensure that they grow up to become more or less functional adults and can hold basic jobs in society. 

The issue is with the term "standardized". 

For someone who is "average", this might or might not largely work. But for many students, "sitting in a classroom for 8 - 9 hours a day" is the worst thing that can happen. They need to be active as part of their learning process, and may even need to be given extra material that challenges them if they're truly at the top levels.

Remember the old Calvin and Hobbes comic strip? How Calvin could have full conversations in Jacobean English with his mother, create elaborate fantasies in his head, and may have literally brought his stuffed tiger to life with the power of his imagination? But how he was near the bottom of his class in grades? In real life, kids like Calvin are bored out of their skulls by being in a classroom all day and learn best when they're going at their own pace and have motivation. These kids are often highly intelligent, and may have already taught themselves the subject matter being given to their peers. 

That's the big failing with public schooling, and part of why many parents go for private schools, magnet schools, or homeschooling so that they can adjust the speed and nature of the curriculum accordingly. 

I'm not disrespecting your view. It's yours and valid. But as a personal p.o.v., if this were the issue I had with public school, I wouldn't have much of an issue with public school. I'll grant it's an issue...but not one that warrants much concern, in my opinion. Learning to deal with being bored, after all, is as important a thing to learn as any other lesson. Being a disgruntled kid is, really, about equivalent to being a kid, after all.

I hated cleaning my room too.

As I said, I respect the view though. If a parent considers this an important reason to not put their kid in public school then I'm supportive. For me, however, it's not really the issue.

[LDSGator]

@The Folk Prophet some humor from our conversation yesterday. 

[Backroads]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:16 PM, LDSGator said:

@The Folk Prophet some humor from our conversation yesterday. 

On a side note, rewatched this last night. Still a solid movie.

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Backroads said:

On a side note, rewatched this last night. Still a solid movie.

Oh, agree 100%. The original is a classic.