Do People Have a Presence?


Carborendum
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At church there were two young men talking in the hallway when a brother in the ward walked by (mostly oblivious to their presence).  As he passed by the older of the two young men stiffened up and said to the other in a nervous and hushed voice,"That man has a presence!"

His compatriot looked down the hallway, and agreed.  "I never really thought about it.  But yeah.  That's really interesting."  They both took a moment processing what it was about that man.

Interesting background on the older young man.  He looks a LOT like Fabio.  He even grew his hair out and styled it like Fabio in his prime.  All the young ladies go gaga when he's around.  He recently cut his hair in preparation for his mission and the girls think he's even more handsome.  I'd agree.

The younger of the two is known as the jack of all trades. He seems to have looks, brains, musical talent, social skills... you get the idea.  And he actually said that sometimes he feels intimidated being around the older man walking down the hall.

About the adult who walked by.  I'm not sure what they necessarily saw. He was a man take him for all in all.  I tend not to put too many people on a pedestal excepting my wife.

But this got me to thinking, do some people have a profound effect on you by simply walking by?  No, Carb.  It was just B.O.  (a-HEM!).

Edited by Carborendum
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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

At church there were two young men talking in the hallway when a brother in the ward walked by (mostly oblivious to their presence).  As he passed by the older of the two young men stiffened up and said to the other in a nervous and hushed voice,"That man has a presence!"

His compatriot looked down the hallway, and agreed.  "I never really thought about it.  But yeah.  That's really interesting."  They both took a moment processing what it was about that man.

Interesting background on the older young man.  He looks a LOT like Fabio.  He even grew his hair out and styled it like Fabio in his prime.  All the young ladies go gaga when he's around.  He recently cut his hair in preparation for his mission and the girls think he's even more handsome.  I'd agree.

The younger of the two is known as the jack of all trades. He seems to have looks, brains, musical talent, social skills... you get the idea.  And he actually said that sometimes he feels intimidated being around the older man walking down the hall.

About the adult who walked by.  I'm not sure what they necessarily saw. He was a man take him for all in all.  I tend not to put too many people on a pedestal excepting my wife.

But this got me to thinking, do some people have a profound effect on you by simply walking by?  No, Carb.  It was just B.O.  (a-HEM!).

I believe that there is another word for this "presents" - it is called charisma.  I believe that there are two types - one is what I call the "show and tell".  These are the great salesman that can sell ice to an eskimo in the dead of winter.  The other type is the Clark Kent – superman type.  You never know who they are until there is an event that no one else seems to handle and then they suddenly change; and surprise – they accomplish the task.  I grew up with a father that was the second type – so I know it well.

I will give one example.  My brothers and I skied with our dad for years – until he retired and decided to take up skiing competitively racing.  Within two years he was ranked 2nd in the nation for seniors over 65 and was the only ranked senior skier that was not a previous professional.

 

The Traveler

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18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

At church there were two young men talking in the hallway when a brother in the ward walked by (mostly oblivious to their presence).  As he passed by the older of the two young men stiffened up and said to the other in a nervous and hushed voice,"That man has a presence!"

His compatriot looked down the hallway, and agreed.  "I never really thought about it.  But yeah.  That's really interesting."  They both took a moment processing what it was about that man.

Interesting background on the older young man.  He looks a LOT like Fabio.  He even grew his hair out and styled it like Fabio in his prime.  All the young ladies go gaga when he's around.  He recently cut his hair in preparation for his mission and the girls think he's even more handsome.  I'd agree.

The younger of the two is known as the jack of all trades. He seems to have looks, brains, musical talent, social skills... you get the idea.  And he actually said that sometimes he feels intimidated being around the older man walking down the hall.

About the adult who walked by.  I'm not sure what they necessarily saw. He was a man take him for all in all.  I tend not to put too many people on a pedestal excepting my wife.

But this got me to thinking, do some people have a profound effect on you by simply walking by?  No, Carb.  It was just B.O.  (a-HEM!).

There's a video clip floating around featuring Fred Rogers - yes, Mr. Rogers himself - testifying before Congress regarding what we today know as PBS. 

One of the people in Congress decided to get a bit cute with him. 

Fred put a dead stop to that with a single response. You can actually hear the room get quiet from the power of what he said. 

There are folks who claim that "alpha" types don't exist in society. What these people don't understand is that your actual "alpha" types don't need to brag or boast about who and what they are. Rather, they have a surer understanding of who and what they are, and they can as needed make that understanding manifest as a type of charisma or force of will. Often, this surer understanding comes from a form of "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" where their experiences and accomplishments speak for themselves. 

Or consider Bob Ross. Not many people know this, but he was a sergeant in the Air Force. He had to frequently yell at, correct, and discipline his subordinates, and that took a toll on him. So he decided to start painting as a way to do something positive. In time, he was making more selling his paintings than he was from his salary. Hence his becoming a professional artist. That calm demeanor and those life lessons he provided each episode? That's hard experience at work and a desire for people to avoid negativity. 

Actual "alpha" types can generally recognize each other, and can easily co-exist so long as there is respect and understanding between them. 

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27 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

There's a video clip floating around featuring Fred Rogers - yes, Mr. Rogers himself - testifying before Congress regarding what we today know as PBS. 

One of the people in Congress decided to get a bit cute with him. 

Fred put a dead stop to that with a single response. You can actually hear the room get quiet from the power of what he said. 

There are folks who claim that "alpha" types don't exist in society. What these people don't understand is that your actual "alpha" types don't need to brag or boast about who and what they are. Rather, they have a surer understanding of who and what they are, and they can as needed make that understanding manifest as a type of charisma or force of will. Often, this surer understanding comes from a form of "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" where their experiences and accomplishments speak for themselves. 

Or consider Bob Ross. Not many people know this, but he was a sergeant in the Air Force. He had to frequently yell at, correct, and discipline his subordinates, and that took a toll on him. So he decided to start painting as a way to do something positive. In time, he was making more selling his paintings than he was from his salary. Hence his becoming a professional artist. That calm demeanor and those life lessons he provided each episode? That's hard experience at work and a desire for people to avoid negativity. 

Actual "alpha" types can generally recognize each other, and can easily co-exist so long as there is respect and understanding between them. 

Re: Fred Rodgers, I'm wondering if you're talking about this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKy7ljRr0AA  It isn't really as you described. But it was impressive nonetheless.

The man I described is not actually an Alpha. He's more of a Sigma (lone wolf).  What the difference?  They both can get along with others.  They both can lead others.  But one accepts & embraces leadership.  The other could take it or leave it.  And you're right, an Alpha doesn't necessarily lord it over others.  A true Alpha usually doesn't need to.  And if you observe the pack behavior of wolves and other animals, you'll begin to see why that is so.  Much of it carries over to humans.

It is easy to see why someone would be "impressive" when performing something impressive.  But when a man just walks down the hall?  How does he have "a presence"?  The main thing that I wonder about is that the young men haven't really spoken with him much.  One of them told me that he does what he can to stay away from him because he's kind of intimidating.  They weren't expressing fear of anything nefarious about the man. But people just get nervous around him or something along those lines.

I never noticed it, myself.  He's just another man in the ward.  He's a decent enough guy, capable, honest, etc.  And I get along with him.  But I never got this impression of him being intimidating or having a presence.  He's just another guy.  A good man. But still just a guy.

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

But I never got this impression of him being intimidating or having a presence. 

Perhaps your own presence is cancelling out his presence.  Perhaps if you and said fellow were to walk past these youths (on opposite sides) at the same time, they would feel crushing pressure as your two presences collided.  :D

Perhaps one can have a talent for sensing presences.  Perhaps the sensation only happens if the other person's presence is significantly greater than your own.

Why do we, when sitting in the conference center (for example), stand and stop talking when the prophet enters the room - without even having seen him?  Sure, some just stand and stop talking because everyone else did, some because they saw him, some oblivious souls keep yammering on until someone smacks them, but some of us seem to sense that someone important has entered the room...

Perhaps our spirits perceive things our brains aren't quite aware of...

Wild guesses, mostly.

Edited by zil2
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52 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

First of all, that was Jesus.  I think we can agree He's in a separate category.  Second, I tend to think that was due to his teaching rather than simple "presence."  No one else felt it along the path.  At least, none is mentioned.

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1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Perhaps your own presence is cancelling out his presence.  Perhaps if you and said fellow were to walk past these youths (on opposite sides) at the same time, they would feel crushing pressure as your two presences collided.  :D

Hah!  I doubt that -- unless you're talking about our "gravity" :D 

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Perhaps one can have a talent for sensing presences.  Perhaps the sensation only happens if the other person's presence is significantly greater than your own.

I don't think it was just one or two people sensing this.  Several of the yout said similar things with different words.

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Why do we, when sitting in the conference center (for example), stand and stop talking when the prophet enters the room - without even having seen him?  Sure, some just stand and stop talking because everyone else did, some because they saw him, some oblivious souls keep yammering on until someone smacks them, but some of us seem to sense that someone important has entered the room...

Perhaps our spirits perceive things our brains aren't quite aware of...

Wild guesses, mostly.

I've only been in the "presence" of an apostle three times.  Each time, their entrance was essentially announced.  And I felt no different before or after than I did with anyone else.  Maybe I'm just immune. Or maybe that part of my spiritual senses are deaf.  I dunno.

But if this is a real phenomenon, I'm curious about it.

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I think that some people have a presence.  

Although I have trained myself to read non-verbal communication.

I am pretty good @ telling if a person is good or bad.  Helpful or un-trustworthy with just a cursory examination.

Confidence, squirrelyness, liars, cheats, holier than thou attitude, etc.

Its a skill.  

I’d like to think that I could identify if I was in the presence of deity.

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22 hours ago, Carborendum said:

First of all, that was Jesus.  I think we can agree He's in a separate category.  Second, I tend to think that was due to his teaching rather than simple "presence."  No one else felt it along the path.  At least, none is mentioned.

From Jesus the Christ:

Quote

The armed band hesitated, though their guide had given the signal agreed upon. Jesus walked toward the officers, with whom stood Judas, and asked, “Whom seek ye?” To their reply, “Jesus of Nazareth,” the Lord rejoined: “I am he.” Instead of advancing to take Him, the crowd pressed backward, and many of them fell to the ground in fright. The simple dignity and gentle yet compelling force of Christ’s presence proved more potent than strong arms and weapons of violence.

 

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Yes, that was certainly what I'm talking about.  And that was certainly different than the road to Emmaus. 

But again, that was the Savior.  He was God, Himself.  Of COURSE He's going to have a presence.  I'd like to see examples of mere mortals with this same thing.  

I'm really beginning to believe that I'm just somehow blind to this quality.  I'd really like it myself.  But how can I if I don't even know what it is?

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On 1/31/2023 at 11:15 AM, Carborendum said:

Re: Fred Rodgers, I'm wondering if you're talking about this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKy7ljRr0AA  It isn't really as you described. But it was impressive nonetheless.

The man I described is not actually an Alpha. He's more of a Sigma (lone wolf).  What the difference?  They both can get along with others.  They both can lead others.  But one accepts & embraces leadership.  The other could take it or leave it.  And you're right, an Alpha doesn't necessarily lord it over others.  A true Alpha usually doesn't need to.  And if you observe the pack behavior of wolves and other animals, you'll begin to see why that is so.  Much of it carries over to humans.

It is easy to see why someone would be "impressive" when performing something impressive.  But when a man just walks down the hall?  How does he have "a presence"?  The main thing that I wonder about is that the young men haven't really spoken with him much.  One of them told me that he does what he can to stay away from him because he's kind of intimidating.  They weren't expressing fear of anything nefarious about the man. But people just get nervous around him or something along those lines.

I never noticed it, myself.  He's just another man in the ward.  He's a decent enough guy, capable, honest, etc.  And I get along with him.  But I never got this impression of him being intimidating or having a presence.  He's just another guy.  A good man. But still just a guy.

 

Interesting thing, the idea of an Alpha Wolf (as it was originally presented and taken in context towards humans) was dis-proven by the very researcher who presented it years ago.

In a like manner, there aren't really Alpha (and especially not Sigma) males in that same light either.  Let's focus on the wolves though, because what DID get shown is FAR more interesting.

There IS a sort of Alpha leader of each pack, but not what these types that talk about Alpha Males think it is.  The pack is normally composed of a family of animals.  These families are led by the "alphas' of the pack.  Who are these Alphas?  It is NOT necessarily even a male.  The Alphas, or leaders of the pack, are the parents.  The PARENTS are the ones leading the pack.

The only times when the "Alpha" male paradigm even appears is with wolves in captivity that have no families.  It appears more in those that do NOT have their parent's guidance (in that light, it is more like Lord of the Flies, or the gangs that wander with youth who defied, denied, or never had, parental guidance).  They are normally not in a good way.

This is actually VERY important I think.  I think it relates to humans.  If we want success, we NEED families which have parents.  We need parents that are involved in their families and LEAD their families.  Just like the wolves, if we are to have success, we need successful leaders.  Those leaders need to be parents.

Without those, we tend to have packs where the strongest (even if it is the dumbest) or best looking tend to take charge, many times to the detriment of all involved.

Just like Wolves we need to have the parents involved to have a successful pack (family).  The TRUE alphas in society are those who are Parents that Lead their families in righteousness and morality (IMO).

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I agree that the entire "alpha male" paradigm is absurd. We do not have "alpha males". We have jerks and megalomaniacs, and we have leaders. The former are only rarely effective in the latter position. Humans are not wolves, and human societies are not wolf packs. Only the very most primitive and violent human societies show any such tendencies.

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Well, I learned something new.  Alpha male... Hmmm.  OK.

I believe it is still pretty clear that there are social hierarchies in the human world.  And within those hierarchies, there are those who naturally tend to be leaders wherever they go.  And there are those who tend to make good lieutenants, and some who are good worker bees.  And, yes, there are those who can step up when needed, but would make a better worker bee.  And in different situations with different individuals comprising the group, positions shift.  That's the nature of things.

Whether you call these Alpha, beta, et al, I don't care.

One relevant question is whether individuals have what is known as "charisma"?  That is, those ineffable characteristics which project confidence in oneself sufficient that others feel confident in you as well.  Is this something that is merely "projected" as a "presence"?  or does it always require words, actions, evidence of talent, or in some instances non-verbal minutiae like having your shoulders back, holding your head high, making eye contact, etc.

It is perfectly understandable to simply follow someone who has obviously shown that they know what they're doing in a given area.  But is that specific to a discipline?  Or does that same characteristic carry over to other areas? 

  • I'm a very successful engineer.  Whenever I speak in a project meeting, people listen and very few people argue with me. 
  • But if I were asked to be a military commander, I'd fail miserably.  No one would even pay attention to what I had to say in a military encounter.  I'd be shoved into the back with the other women... I mean civilians.

1) Godly presence?  Understandable.
2) Ability in a given area of competence (subject matter expert)? Understandable.
3) Words spoken which are conveyed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?  Understandable.
4) Non-verbal cues of confidence and bearing?  Understandable.
5) Simply walking by and having a "presence"?  I don't get it.  Is this the same as non-verbal cues?

As far as non-verbal cues, I am very intuitive in this area.  I've often told someone what they really meant simply by interpreting how they answered a question.  The word choice+tone+inflections+non-verbal cues tell me a LOT.  With my son I seem to have telepathy because I can tell what he's thinking without him saying a word.  Everyone else says he's impossible to read (poker face).

I'm beginning to think (based on the responses so far) that apart from Deity, there is no such thing as what I've been describing.  But this one man seemed to have this effect on others that I simply don't see (even with my ability to read people).  It's really baffling to me.

Edited by Carborendum
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On 2/1/2023 at 1:29 PM, mordorbund said:

From Jesus the Christ:

 

I just realized something about this.  They only fell back in fear AFTER Jesus said "I am he."  They didn't hesitate to simply walk up to him when they didn't know who he was.  If He projected this "presence" wouldn't that have caused them to step back when they simply came near him? 

The only explanation I can think of is that they knew him by reputation.  They knew he was a man of miracles.  Even if they didn't really know all we know, even if they didn't believe he was the Messiah, they knew He had power.  Maybe that was what they were afraid of?

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I just realized something about this.  They only fell back in fear AFTER Jesus said "I am he."  They didn't hesitate to simply walk up to him when they didn't know who he was.  If He projected this "presence" wouldn't that have caused them to step back when they simply came near him? 

The only explanation I can think of is that they knew him by reputation.  They knew he was a man of miracles.  Even if they didn't really know all we know, even if they didn't believe he was the Messiah, they knew He had power.  Maybe that was what they were afraid of?

A few years back the TV show Adam Ruins Everything did an ill-conceived skit in which he tried to "prove" that "alpha" types didn't exist. 

He opened his episode by presenting a situation in which a stereotypical frat boy walks into a bar, with the frat boy as his stand-in for a hypothetical "alpha" type.

I, and quite a few others, called "shenanigans" on the whole thing.

You see, the bar in question wasn't the kind of party hole that frat boys would normally come to. Instead, the set used for the bar was more in keeping with the kind of facility that a, shall we say, "rough" clientele would come to prefer. In this kind of bar, a frat boy would be rather low on the totem pole, a nuisance at best. 

If you were in that kind of environment when such a frat boy came through, you'd do well to immediately scan the room. What you're looking for is someone who either:

suddenly becomes serene

gets a glint of the devil in their eye

completely and perfectly ignores the interloper

or

becomes visibly disturbed by the interloper's presence.

If you see someone who fits one of the four descriptions, then settle your bill and start moving towards the door... especially if it's an older individual, particularly an older male. This is because if Mr. Frat Boy keeps pushing his luck, then Mr. Frat Boy will find out the hard way what the local pecking order is and how far down he truly lies. 

Same premise here. The people coming after Jesus were braggarts and blow-hards who thought that they were tough but never actually expected to have to make good on their boasts. As such, when they found themselves having to actually back up their vows, they flinched. 

**

As far as that show goes?

Making matters worse for the host is that the second half of the skit relied entirely on stereotypes regarding tabletop role-playing games, stereotypes that were over 20 years out of date at the time the skit was recorded. 

Put it all together, and a number of folks began to question what the actual motive was behind this skit. 

It also led to a closer evaluation of the other skits in the show, which revealed even more cases of "did not do the research" or "did not understand basic facts of life". It's to the point now that quite a few individuals now refer to the show as "Adam Fails At Everything" and automatically dismiss anything the host presents simply because he's the one who presents it. 

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18 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

You see, the bar in question wasn't the kind of party hole that frat boys would normally come to. Instead, the set used for the bar was more in keeping with the kind of facility that a, shall we say, "rough" clientele would come to prefer. In this kind of bar, a frat boy would be rather low on the totem pole, a nuisance at best. 

If you were in that kind of environment when such a frat boy came through, you'd do well to immediately scan the room. What you're looking for is someone who either:

suddenly becomes serene

gets a glint of the devil in their eye

completely and perfectly ignores the interloper

or

becomes visibly disturbed by the interloper's presence.

If you see someone who fits one of the four descriptions, then settle your bill and start moving towards the door... especially if it's an older individual, particularly an older male. This is because if Mr. Frat Boy keeps pushing his luck, then Mr. Frat Boy will find out the hard way what the local pecking order is and how far down he truly lies. 

I've heard the title. I've never seen the show.  So, thank you for sharing.

What you're describing is basically a D&D Charisma v. Charisma showdown.  That's great on paper.  But I haven't seen it in real life.  The example of the older, tougher male maintaining his demeanor while the younger frat boy flinches is interesting.  One could say that it is non-verbal cues.  But really, "who flinches first?"

That's great in movies.  But have you witnessed it in real life?  I'd like to see it.  It's the curiosity in me.

And, yes, that could also be the sequence of events with the Savior.  He never flinches.  That's something to ponder.  Can we actually "see" charisma with our eyes?

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37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I've heard the title. I've never seen the show.  So, thank you for sharing.

What you're describing is basically a D&D Charisma v. Charisma showdown.  That's great on paper.  But I haven't seen it in real life.  The example of the older, tougher male maintaining his demeanor while the younger frat boy flinches is interesting.  One could say that it is non-verbal cues.  But really, "who flinches first?"

That's great in movies.  But have you witnessed it in real life?  I'd like to see it.  It's the curiosity in me.

And, yes, that could also be the sequence of events with the Savior.  He never flinches.  That's something to ponder.  Can we actually "see" charisma with our eyes?

IRL, I'm something of a hoss. 

I'd be well north of 6 feet tall if not for the scoliosis in my back (I might have even lost an inch or two), you can tell I have German ancestry, I'm built like a bear, and I have a considerable amount of dark body hair. My deformed jaw also means that I typically have a "neutral" expression on my face because it's physically painful to smile for extended periods. 

I can literally just *stand* somewhere and make people nervous because of my size and appearance.

Back when I was in high school I actually had a random nobody come up to me one morning and ask if I was an undercover cop simply because I looked older and more hardcore than I really was. 

Even today people are careful about saying or doing anything right in front of me because they aren't quite able to get a read on me, and all that psy ops training means that if I ever had to I could game people as needed so long as the negative aspects of my autism don't kick in. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

IRL, I'm something of a hoss. 

I'd be well north of 6 feet tall if not for the scoliosis in my back (I might have even lost an inch or two), you can tell I have German ancestry, I'm built like a bear, and I have a considerable amount of dark body hair. My deformed jaw also means that I typically have a "neutral" expression on my face because it's physically painful to smile for extended periods. 

I can literally just *stand* somewhere and make people nervous because of my size and appearance.

Back when I was in high school I actually had a random nobody come up to me one morning and ask if I was an undercover cop simply because I looked older and more hardcore than I really was. 

Even today people are careful about saying or doing anything right in front of me because they aren't quite able to get a read on me, and all that psy ops training means that if I ever had to I could game people as needed so long as the negative aspects of my autism don't kick in. 

 

I was going to reply, but on second thought I'll just stand here quietly and try not to look nervous.

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1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

IRL, I'm something of a hoss. 

I'd be well north of 6 feet tall if not for the scoliosis in my back (I might have even lost an inch or two), you can tell I have German ancestry, I'm built like a bear, and I have a considerable amount of dark body hair. My deformed jaw also means that I typically have a "neutral" expression on my face because it's physically painful to smile for extended periods. 

I can literally just *stand* somewhere and make people nervous because of my size and appearance.

Back when I was in high school I actually had a random nobody come up to me one morning and ask if I was an undercover cop simply because I looked older and more hardcore than I really was. 

Even today people are careful about saying or doing anything right in front of me because they aren't quite able to get a read on me, and all that psy ops training means that if I ever had to I could game people as needed so long as the negative aspects of my autism don't kick in. 

 

Yes, when your size is several standard deviations above the norm, it does tend to intimidate regardless.  And your psy ops training would, of course, include non-verbal cues (both expressing and reading).  So, that makes sense.

Edited by Carborendum
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