From my scripture reading this morning

[askandanswer]

This morning, as I was working my way through 3rd Nephi 22 I came across verse 12:

And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones

I've looked up agates and carbuncles online. An agate is "a common rock formation consisting of chalcedony and quartz as its primary components." This would seem a poor material from which to make windows. A carbuncle is “a collection of boils“ filled with pus. This sounds like an odd choice of materials with which to construct a gate. Perhaps agates and carbuncles had a different meaning when Isaiah first spoke these words, although I am reading them here from the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on earth.

Can anybody help me better understand what is meant by this verse?

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This morning, as I was working my way through 3rd Nephi 22 I came across verse 12:

And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones

I've looked up agates and carbuncles online. An agate is "a common rock formation consisting of chalcedony and quartz as its primary components." This would seem a poor material from which to make windows. A carbuncle is “a collection of boils“ filled with pus. This sounds like an odd choice of materials with which to construct a gate. Perhaps agates and carbuncles had a different meaning when Isaiah first spoke these words, although I am reading them here from the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on earth.

Can anybody help me better understand what is meant by this verse?

Carbuncle is a precious red gemstone: Carbuncle (gemstone) - Wikipedia

Agates are semi-transparent, but windows in those days were open to the air, not glazed. I'm surmising that these "beautiful and versatile gemstones" Agate - Wikipedia formed the window opening or even the shutters for the opening, so that even when closed, light would shine through. Some say the use of this stone allows those in the house to see the glory of Zion but not the fullness of the presence of God -- meaning that we live in Zion in the last days by His protective grace until we are perfected and quickened sufficiently to see God.

Edited January 31, 2023 by CV75

[Vort]

39 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

A carbuncle is “a collection of boils“ filled with pus.

😁

In medical circles, a "carbuncle" is indeed a pus-filled boil. In mineralogy, a carbuncle is a red gemstone, usually a garnet. I guess our creative ancestors thought that an angry, pus-filled boil resembled a fiery red gemstone.

[zil2]

30 minutes ago, Vort said:

😁

In medical circles, a "carbuncle" is indeed a pus-filled boil. In mineralogy, a carbuncle is a red gemstone, usually a garnet. I guess our creative ancestors thought that an angry, pus-filled boil resembled a fiery red gemstone.

I'm now imagining that first conversation - before social media gossip - took over and the usage spread...

Party 1 (pointing to patient): "What is that!?"

Doctor-like person: "It looks like ... like a ... a carbuncle!"

Party 1: "Yeah. One filled with pus maybe..."

Party 2: "Gross!"

Party 3 (outside, not hearing every word), to party 4: "He's got carbuncles."

Party 4: "Whats?"

Meanwhile, millennia later, @Carborendum wonders, "What about my uncle?"

[Just_A_Guy]

3 Nephi 22 is quoting Isaiah 54, and in the BoM the translator has made a decision to reflect the KJV.  In other translations of Isaiah 54:12, the words the KJV renders as “windows”, “agates”, and “carbuncles” are commonly rendered “battlements” or “fortifications”, “rubies” or “gemstones”, and  “jewels” or “shining gems” or “beryl” or “crystal”.

Basically, Isaiah is poetically saying that it’s gonna be beautiful.

By the way - there is precedent for the Book of Mormon’s translator relying on the KJV even though a more accurate English rendering could have been rendered.  Compare Malachi 3-4, 3 Nephi 24-25, and Joseph Smith-History 1:36-39.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3 Nephi 22 is quoting Isaiah 54, and in the BoM the translator has made a decision to reflect the KJV.  In other translations of Isaiah 54:12, the words the KJV renders as “windows”, “agates”, and “carbuncles” are commonly rendered “battlements” or “fortifications”, “rubies” or “gemstones”, and  “jewels” or “shining gems” or “beryl” or “crystal”.

Basically, Isaiah is poetically saying that it’s gonna be beautiful.

Carb's uncle wants to know if it will be as beautiful as Carb's aunt.   Carb's aunt will be satisfied with the absence of pus in Carb's uncle.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This morning, as I was working my way through 3rd Nephi 22 I came across verse 12:

And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones

I've looked up agates and carbuncles online. An agate is "a common rock formation consisting of chalcedony and quartz as its primary components." This would seem a poor material from which to make windows. A carbuncle is “a collection of boils“ filled with pus. This sounds like an odd choice of materials with which to construct a gate. Perhaps agates and carbuncles had a different meaning when Isaiah first spoke these words, although I am reading them here from the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on earth.

Can anybody help me better understand what is meant by this verse?

The Hebrew words kadkod and eben refer to precious stone and high quality stone respectively.  The precious stone is often thought of as a ruby.  The high quality stone is quite generic, leading to such a variety of translations.  It could be something like marble (which was certainly sought after) or it could be some type of semi-precious stone.

The KJV translation used agate per a different definition which was basically a naturally occurring glass which was considered a precious stone because such stones were harder than our glass today.  I have no  idea what those translators thought a carbuncle was besides my uncle. ( @zil2).

As JAG says: It's just conjuring up images of a beautiful place.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Compare Malachi 3-4, 3 Nephi 24-25, and Joseph Smith-History 1:36-39.

I agree that they were trying to defer to the KJV for those Isaiah verses.  But I have a different take on these passages about Malachi's prophecy.

• Joseph had already received the words from Moroni a long time before the translation of the BoM.  They were recorded.
• Many of the Isaiah verses specifically had changes from the KJV because they were "corrections".  The JST tends to parallel those changes.
• D&C 128 indicates that Joseph merely considered the words of Moroni a "plainer translation".  But the words of the KJV constituted an adequate translation as is.
• The JST shows no change from the KJV.

Put this all together, and it would seem that the prophecy given to the ancients was simply different than the same message that the Lord wanted delivered to our dispensation. 

• What would "reveal unto you the priesthood" really mean to them?  The Jews after the Diaspora didn't have the same order of priesthood as what they had before teh scattering,  or understanding of it as we do today.  It wouldn't make any sense to them.  So, different words were spoken to them.
• The use of the word "turn" is simply a clarification that could easily go either way.  In English, it is plainer the way Moroni rendered it.  In Hebrew, it would be more standard to render it as it stands in the KJV.  Still, the KJV basically says the same thing as Moroni said it.
• The primary difference I see is the "utterly wasted" vs "smite the earth with a curse."  I have my own ideas about this.  But my ideas don't really stand up to scrutiny.  So, I'm still working on that part.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Carborendum

[CV75]

17 hours ago, Vort said:

😁

In medical circles, a "carbuncle" is indeed a pus-filled boil. In mineralogy, a carbuncle is a red gemstone, usually a garnet. I guess our creative ancestors thought that an angry, pus-filled boil resembled a fiery red gemstone.

They make a nice necklace, too.