Doomsday

[mikbone]

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’.  

Joseph Smith, Jr.  Dec 19, 1841

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’.  

Joseph Smith, Jr.  Dec 19, 1841

I do not think G-d keeps secrets - but that secrets are only manifested by and through the Holy Ghost.  Those that think they are revealing secrets by their own means are incapable of knowing a divine secret in the first place - thus they will only reveal lies - that will appear as truth to those that cannot or will not abide the Holy Ghost.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think G-d keeps secrets

Because this is a quote from Joseph Smith and I sustain him; I am going to take his word that the Lord has secrets. 

Now perhaps secret is a charged word for you.  And I can understand that because my wife has a degree in English and words are important for her.   I am a concept guy with a little bit of dislexia so I dont get all that excited about a single word.

If we look at the 1828 Webester's dictonary we get the following:

Secret - Properly, separate; hence, hid; concealed from the notice or knowledge of all persons except the individual or individuals concerned.

Not very damning.

Back to the original quote though...

Do we reveal too much to the world.  Should we keep our difficulties close to the chest or should we share them on social media?

The underlined text "I can keep a secret till Doomsday." was underlined in the original document. 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-addenda/46

Do we think that Joseph Smith was keeping secrets of the Lord?  

I beleive so.  

[NeuroTypical]

Pretty cool that high-res images of all this is so readily available. 

 

That's some pretty clean and neat handwriting.  I wonder if it was a quill pen or a fountain pen.   Maybe @zil2 can weigh in?

[zil2]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

That's some pretty clean and neat handwriting.  I wonder if it was a quill pen or a fountain pen.   Maybe @zil2 can weigh in?

It wasn't likely a fountain pen as we know it (pen with ink contained in the pen).  Those weren't really made until the 1850s and it would have taken a while for them to become commonly used.  It's far more likely that it was either a quill (possibly with a steel nib) or the old style fountain pen which we now call a dip or calligraphy pen.  Either way, it would have involved dipping the nib into a bottle of ink (aka ink well).

(From the site, that was written in 1854, so it could have been an early fountain pen, but it seems less likely than a dip pen.)

[Anddenex]

13 hours ago, mikbone said:

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’.  

Joseph Smith, Jr.  Dec 19, 1841

Secrets is synonymous with mysteries with this quote, "How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God."

We can see evidence also from the Book of Mormon that "secrets" (mysteries) are supposed to be revealed at specific times and by specific people according to the will of God. This does not mean we can't know of the mysteries ourselves, just as prophets have been constrained not to write what they know.

If we aren't the prophet, we do not have permission to reveal anything that has not yet been revealed. If we do not keep the mysteries secret, then does God have any good reason to share more? What do we do when we know someone can't keep a secret?

Some people will mock, pearls before swine, truths also until it is revealed by the prophet, and even when revealed it is still hard for some and rejected even by the elect. Polygamy is a perfect example of this.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

Because this is a quote from Joseph Smith and I sustain him; I am going to take his word that the Lord has secrets. 

Now perhaps secret is a charged word for you.  And I can understand that because my wife has a degree in English and words are important for her.   I am a concept guy with a little bit of dislexia so I dont get all that excited about a single word.

If we look at the 1828 Webester's dictonary we get the following:

Secret - Properly, separate; hence, hid; concealed from the notice or knowledge of all persons except the individual or individuals concerned.

Not very damning.

Back to the original quote though...

Do we reveal too much to the world.  Should we keep our difficulties close to the chest or should we share them on social media?

The underlined text "I can keep a secret till Doomsday." was underlined in the original document. 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-addenda/46

Do we think that Joseph Smith was keeping secrets of the Lord?  

I beleive so.  

Amos 3:7   Also understand that the spirit of prophesy is a testimony of Christ.  

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

Where is the list of harms that have occurred because someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph? And is that list longer or shorter than the list of harms that have been done by keeping secrets? If someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph, Joseph is the only person who could have told them that secret.

Edited February 16, 2023 by askandanswer

[laronius]

46 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Where is the list of harms that have occurred because someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph? And is that list longer or shorter than the list of harms that have been done by keeping secrets? If someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph, Joseph is the only person who could have told them that secret.

I think the point is not so much not ever sharing revealed truth as it is recognizing the appropriateness of when to share certain truths. I am reminded of a certain brother on my mission. A very good and faithful person but one we did not like to take with us in appointments because we did not know what was going to come out of his mouth. In other words he would speak of things the investigator was not ready for, truths not appropriate for the situation, secrets, at least for the time being. Another example from the early days of the Church was when some members in Missouri told their nonmember neighbors that that land was their Zion and the Lord would remove them off it. That was a totally inappropriate use of truth that only fueled resentment. Recognizing the appropriateness of when and when not to share is a sign to the Lord that we can be trusted with certain truths.

[mikbone]

3 Ne 28

24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me

 

Ether 13

12 And when these things come, bringeth to pass the scripture which saith, there are they who were first, who shall be last; and there are they who were last, who shall be first.
13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out; and he hid himself in the cavity of a rock by day, and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.

Edited February 16, 2023 by mikbone

[Vort]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Where is the list of harms that have occurred because someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph? And is that list longer or shorter than the list of harms that have been done by keeping secrets? If someone shared a secret that God had shared with Joseph, Joseph is the only person who could have told them that secret.

How much harm might have been avoided had the doctrine of the deification of man remained publicly unrevealed? Not only is that a club commonly used to bash Latter-day Saints over the head, but how many young (and not-so-young) Church members have taken that doctrine to absurd lengths? How many weak-at-the-moment Latter-day Saints have felt shame in hearing someone or other say something like, "When I'm a God and have my own planet..."? It's a gift to anti-Mormons, all wrapped up and with a nice bow.

How much harm has been avoided by our not knowing the nature of the Holy Ghost? How much suffering, unbelief, and apostasy have we been spared because the doctrine of a Mother in heaven has not been propounded or added upon? Church members make fools of themselves on these and other topics as it is, with no other internal help. How blessed we are to know what has been given us, and how blessed we are that a great many things of God have been withheld from our carnal, immature spirits and the filthy eyes of the world.

Ponder on the patriarchal order, the very system of God. We used to talk about that often in the Church, a great deal in some cases. But our grasp never matched our reach. As a child, I would hear (at Church, not at home) some men refer to the patriarchal order as if it were a scepter of ruling power that conferred The Last Word on them. You don't hear much about the patriarchal order at Church these days; I believe that certain important temple references have been removed on this account. Part of the reason is undoubtedly the cancerous feminism in our society that uses "patriarchy" as an ugly epithet. But I suspect an equal or perhaps larger reason is our collective insistence on misunderstanding the sacred and vitally important principle of the patriarchal order.

Moses broke the tablets containing the original law of God to Israel and returned instead with what we call the lesser law of Moses. I think that even today, God continues to dumb down our teachings until they reach a point that we are willing to grasp. Perhaps at some point we can return to growing in our collective understanding through revelation instead of retreating from sacred truths that we are too impure to receive.

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

3 Ne 28

24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me

 

Ether 13

12 And when these things come, bringeth to pass the scripture which saith, there are they who were first, who shall be last; and there are they who were last, who shall be first.
13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out; and he hid himself in the cavity of a rock by day, and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.

I thought about listing a page or two of scriptures - but rather I will leave an exercise for the reader.  As part of the publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is a companion to the scriptures called “Study Helps”.  I would suggest that there are ways to study scripture by topic.  The topic I suggest the reader exercise is the term “Ask”.  I suggest that the “Topical Guide”, “Bible Dictionary” and “Index to the Triple Combination” be utilized and the term “Ask” be looked up under each of these “Study Helps”.

I challenge anyone to find any reference that remotely suggests that what is asked of G-d, with faith in Jesus Christ, would be withheld for any reason.  I believe one will discover that many things will not be revealed to those that lack faith in Christ.  I also believe it is not proper to cast pears before swine – which I believe is the reason (only reason?) something would be withheld. 

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

challenge anyone to find any reference that remotely suggests that what is asked of G-d, with faith in Jesus Christ, would be withheld for any reason

D&C 63:10

Ether 12:6

D&C 130: 14-15

D&C 88: 63-65

 

The wife also shared the following:

Daddy?” young Corrie asked, “...What is rape?”

After a moment’s pause, the man held out his suitcase. “Would you hold this for me please Corrie?”

“Sure, daddy” she took it from his hands and it fell to the ground with a THUD. She tugged and pulled but could not lift it. He smiled and bent down to take it up from her hands.

“Let me carry that,” he said. “You know, just like this suitcase, your question is one that is too big for you to hold. I would not be a good father if I allowed you to carry it. Let your father carry it.”

I swallowed hard again. Loud and clear, I was hearing my heavenly Father say this very thing to me.

Corrie ten Boom, The Hiding Place

Edited February 16, 2023 by mikbone

[zil2]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

I think that even today, God continues to dumb down our teachings until they reach a point that we are willing to grasp. Perhaps at some point we can return to growing in our collective understanding through revelation instead of retreating from sacred truths that we are too impure to receive.

Part of me wants to agree with you.  There's more than enough scriptural evidence that this phenomenon repeats.  The children of Israel, under Moses, literally said, "God's too scary for us.  You go talk to him and tell us what he said."  And in my BofM study a few days ago, Nephi said this:

Quote

2 Nephi 32:7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

There's no reason to think we are immune.  But a lot of the changes I have seen in recent years have actually helped me. Perhaps what seems to you as the Lord dumbing things down is actually the nudging that will help us to grow through personal revelation rather than relying on the collective revelation (received via the Prophet and shared with the church - not that I think we're lacking in that).  Perhaps this is us getting the opportunity to step up.

I'm reminded of the Lord explaining why he taught in parables.  I think of the wheat and the tares.  Perhaps this is a case of allowing the "tender wheat" to survive long enough to grow strong.  Perhaps it will strengthen the more mature wheat*.  Perhaps it will be enough to convert a few tares to wheat...

* I think of the most recent things: Hear Him, emphasis on strengthening your ability to receive personal direction from the Holy Ghost, Come Follow Me - home-centered, Church-supported.  Etc.  Not going to Church during COVID-19 helped me.  My efforts to hear Him and learn directly from the Holy Ghost are helping me.  The lack of more lesson material, thereby forcing me to choose between going without or seeking more personal learning, is helping me.

I expect there are those who are content to surf along, not making any greater effort.  I suppose there are those who will still be offended even if they never hear the specific words which offend them.  I dunno.  I guess it seems to me like Christ's followers are no worse off today (as far as availability of the truth) than they were when I was a child, even though things are very, very different today...

Can it be both?  I suppose it can be.  Things held back generally, and yet incredible opportunities extended through the Spirit personally?  I suppose it's always been that way though.  (This is my non-answer.  )

Edited February 17, 2023 by zil2

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

D&C 63:10

Ether 12:6

D&C 130: 14-15

D&C 88: 63-65

 

The wife also shared the following:

Daddy?” young Corrie asked, “...What is rape?”

After a moment’s pause, the man held out his suitcase. “Would you hold this for me please Corrie?”

“Sure, daddy” she took it from his hands and it fell to the ground with a THUD. She tugged and pulled but could not lift it. He smiled and bent down to take it up from her hands.

“Let me carry that,” he said. “You know, just like this suitcase, your question is one that is too big for you to hold. I would not be a good father if I allowed you to carry it. Let your father carry it.”

I swallowed hard again. Loud and clear, I was hearing my heavenly Father say this very thing to me.

Corrie ten Boom, The Hiding Place

I think (my opinion) that you are reading something into scripture that was not intended.  With G-d and faith in Christ all things are possible.  Consider 1Nephi 22 “……Behold, are they to be understood according to things which are spiritual …….  for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets ......”  Note that the term prophets (plural) is used not not prophet (singular).

The little example, I believe, attempts to confuse physical understanding from things spiritual.  Using physical limitations to explain spiritual limitations.   I would suggest Moroni Chapter 10.  Here we learn that different spiritual gifts are dispersed among the children of men that we may come together as one.  Sometime, I think, we attempt to define faith as something held by a single individual – but consider that faith also abides a community of saints that are one in Christ.  Examples, are the city of Enoch and Salem that I believe were taken up, in part because communities of the flesh that remain, cannot abide such light and truth because of lack of faith.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I think (my opinion) that you are reading something into scripture that was not intended. 

My last post had no personal commentary.  I only cited scripture and a quotation.  After a challenge had been issued.

I am not interested in an argument.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by mikbone

[romans8]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:56 PM, Vort said:

Moses broke the tablets containing the original law of God to Israel and returned instead with what we call the lesser law of Moses.

That is not the impression I get when I read Exodus 34:1.

The Lord said to Moses, “Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write
on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

That is not the impression I get when I read Exodus 34:1.

The Lord said to Moses, “Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write
on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 

Joseph Smith Translation, baby.  

[mikbone]

And of course

 

[romans8]

On 2/18/2023 at 12:01 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Joseph Smith Translation, baby.  

I came across a copy on Ebay and purchased it.

[romans8]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:08 PM, Traveler said:

Examples, are the city of Enoch and Salem that I believe were taken up, in part because communities of the flesh that remain, cannot abide such light and truth because of lack of faith.

What city of Salem was taken up and when?

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

I came across a copy on Ebay and purchased it.

Aww, man. You don't need to buy it.  It's free online.

Since you're getting it, you have to keep in mind that it consists of four types of changes.

1) Updated phrasing/vocabulary due to semantic shift). (About 40-45%)
2) Commentary/clarification. (About 40-45%)
3) Things that were lost have been restored. (about 2-5%)
4) Actual corrections. (The remaining 2-5%).
5) Changes because he was modifying principles for our dispensation only.  But is correct as it stands. (2-5%)

Since no one today really knows where those lines were drawn, those percentages are only my own top-of-the-head estimation from what I've read so far.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

What city of Salem was taken up and when?

Gen 14:18

It was taken up some time after the Tower of Babel and before the death of Abraham.  We don't have dates.

[zil2]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Gen 14:18

It was taken up some time after the Tower of Babel and before the death of Abraham.  We don't have dates.

Genesis 14:18 reads:

Quote

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

One could infer the city being taken up from JST Genesis 14:25-40 (esp 32-36).

I've always assumed @Traveler was going off some source outside of scripture to assert that Melchizedek's Salem was taken in a manner like the city of Enoch.

[romans8]

On 3/4/2023 at 11:04 AM, Carborendum said:

Gen 14:18

It was taken up some time after the Tower of Babel and before the death of Abraham.  We don't have dates.

I'll check the JST.