Christ's first miracle

[zil2]

Last week we read John 2:1-11 (below, with JST on v4, for convenience).  I wonder if anyone has thoughts about this event, things it teaches, etc.  I have my own thoughts, and something new learned in Stake Conference last weekend, but would like to hear from others (Sunday School isn't long or frequent enough, so I thought I'd try here).

Quote

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what wilt thou have me to do for thee? that will I do; for mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

One thing I've been trying to do this year in my scripture study is to abstract out lessons in two basic areas:

1. What does this tell me about the character and behavior of God / Christ?

2. What does this teach me to think / feel / say / do?

...and I write such things in my journal - which greatly enhances my study.  It often also expands my understanding of things I already knew, deepening faith or conversion in the process, or just widening application.

[mordorbund]

The wedding feast at Cana is the miracle I’m least comfortable with. It’s the sort of thing that fits in better with the “miracles” of the infancy gospels — bringing clay birds to life or stretching beams when Joseph cuts it too short. It corrects a social faux pas rather than providing personal restoration which is more typical of his miracles. The closest to it in the other gospels is when he fed the multitude but that sits better with me as an example of Mary vs Martha with Mary getting provided for.

That said, John’s gospel is dramatic. He frames Jesus’ sermons with relevant scenes (the most prominent in my mind is when Judas leaves to betray him “it was night”. I think John wishes it was raining and the thunder clapped so he could have used that too), and the setting here is a wedding (his, if you follow Orson Pratt’s teachings). Implicit in this (John uses implicit scenes, I don’t think he always names the holy day but assumes the reader knows) is the image of Christ as bridegroom to the church, but I don’t see how that connects with the miracle.

The other relevant thing I keep in mind is that John likes to testify of high christology (hence his genealogy of Jesus predates even Adam in ultimate gospel one-upmanship). The farthest I can get with that in this instance is to borrow from CS Lewis who used this as an example of how miracles follow natural law (often laws we have yet to discover) and see that this is a witness that Jesus is the Creator and is able to perform the same act as grapes turning water to wine.

But that feels like a stretch to me.

[mordorbund]

Perhaps the lesson here is that if we had the faith Jesus and his disciples demonstrated here we really could bless the donuts to “nourish and strengthen our bodies”.

[Vort]

44 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

The wedding feast at Cana is the miracle I’m least comfortable with. It’s the sort of thing that fits in better with the “miracles” of the infancy gospels — bringing clay birds to life or stretching beams when Joseph cuts it too short. It corrects a social faux pas rather than providing personal restoration which is more typical of his miracles. The closest to it in the other gospels is when he fed the multitude but that sits better with me as an example of Mary vs Martha with Mary getting provided for.

That said, John’s gospel is dramatic. He frames Jesus’ sermons with relevant scenes (the most prominent in my mind is when Judas leaves to betray him “it was night”. I think John wishes it was raining and the thunder clapped so he could have used that too), and the setting here is a wedding (his, if you follow Orson Pratt’s teachings). Implicit in this (John uses implicit scenes, I don’t think he always names the holy day but assumes the reader knows) is the image of Christ as bridegroom to the church, but I don’t see how that connects with the miracle.

The other relevant thing I keep in mind is that John likes to testify of high christology (hence his genealogy of Jesus predates even Adam in ultimate gospel one-upmanship). The farthest I can get with that in this instance is to borrow from CS Lewis who used this as an example of how miracles follow natural law (often laws we have yet to discover) and see that this is a witness that Jesus is the Creator and is able to perform the same act as grapes turning water to wine.

But that feels like a stretch to me.

I have felt the same way my entire adult life. Christ's miracles in mortality are useful and healing, except for the first miracle, which comes across as an issue of convenience—exactly the sort of thing that Christ resisted when tempted by Satan. That feeling of unease has led me to speculate that we aren't getting the whole story of the water-to-wine business.

[zil2]

3 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Perhaps the lesson here is that if we had the faith Jesus and his disciples demonstrated here we really could bless the donuts to “nourish and strengthen our bodies”.

Thread-jacking my own thread here, but...  This is one of the many things that I really re-evaluated a couple years back.  "Blessing the food" (and prayer in general) was way too consistent / repetitive and irrational.  It was also something that my mind associated with gatherings (multiple people).  Living alone for most of my life, it was hard to develop a habit of praying over meals.  It felt just plain weird.  So I started to really, seriously think about why we pray over food at every meal?  Should we?  How should we?  In case it's not obvious, this phrase has been dropped from my prayers and if I'm ever asked to pray over food at a Church gathering, folk might be shocked by what they hear.

[zil2]

I want to see if more people have thoughts before I share my own, but I'll share someone else's - one of the speakers in our Stake Conference.  It goes back to verse 4, where Christ says to his mother: "Woman, what wilt thou have me to do for thee? that will I do".  It seems clear we're missing something between verses 4 and 5 because she doesn't answer him.  An example of the speaker's take away can be seen in Ether with the story of the brother of Jared: When asking the Lord for something, be specific.  Don't just say, "please solve all my problems" (or even "this one problem").  You're less likely to get that.  And you'd be lucky if you got what the brother of Jared got: "You can't have these options, so, other than those, what would you like me to do?"

It seems like a good lesson to me.  It's pretty easy to ask the Lord to "help us" or "help [some person]" and be awfully vague about it.  "Bless so-and-so with what she needs to get through this trial" or some other vague wording, because, ya know, what do we know about what she needs to get through this trial?  I mean, really.  But I think that was the point of the talk and one take-away from this lesson - listen, observe, do hard thinking, test out your theories, and then go to the Lord and ask for something specific, not, "please light my barges".

(And no, I haven't forgotten that the Lord solved the other problems more easily.  But clearly, we shouldn't always just hand off our problems and say, "please fix this for me, cuz I dunno how".)

[person0]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

why we pray over food at every meal?  Should we?  How should we?

I think the primary purpose is to express gratitude and to thank God for providing for our physical nourishment.  It isn't about the food so much as about the fact that we are blessed to have it.  I'd say somewhere along the line the waters got muddied and we also started asking a blessing upon the food, which I still regularly do myself.

I remember during my pre-school years attending a day-care where we always recited the same prayer over meals:

"God is great.  God is good.  Let us thank Him for our food.  Amen."

No blessing on the food in there, just pure gratitude.

[person0]

Why would the servants at the wedding listen to Mary and obey her when she told them to do whatever Jesus said to do?

As to this miracle being different, are there any other recorded times when Christ's mother asked him to perform a miracle?

Upon who's faith was the miracle based?  Mary's?

Jehovah performed instructional miracles for Moses and the Bro. Of Jared (tablets carved with finger, skin turned leprous, stone made light).  Likewise Jehovah turned the water in Egypt to blood.  Given his disciples faith was also increased, perhaps, among other things, this miracle was important because it established Him as possessing the power of Jehovah.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I think the primary purpose is to express gratitude and to thank God for providing for our physical nourishment. 

Agreed.  And I do indeed pray over my food now, every time, even junk food.  But you won't hear me asking God to make my donut nourishing.  Talk about hypocrisy, or something.  And if anything, I'm now more grateful for all the food I eat, and more mindful of how nourishing it, in and of itself, may be.  (Those were questions I was asking myself, not asking the group - though I appreciate feedback on that, too, since I've resolved to always be open to changes that improve my spiritual experience.)

[mordorbund]

8 hours ago, zil2 said:

But you won't hear me asking God to make my donut nourishing.

O ye of little faith.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

O ye of little faith.

It's more like I don't want my donut (or "doughnut", see next) turning into Brussels sprouts!

(TIL: It's not "brussel sprouts" - which is how it sounds when people talk about them - or "brussels sprouts", but "Brussels sprouts" - go figure.  What a picky veggie!  I'm a little peeved they didn't even bother to point this out when I traveled through Brussels...)

[Ironhold]

18 hours ago, mordorbund said:

The wedding feast at Cana is the miracle I’m least comfortable with. It’s the sort of thing that fits in better with the “miracles” of the infancy gospels — bringing clay birds to life or stretching beams when Joseph cuts it too short. It corrects a social faux pas rather than providing personal restoration which is more typical of his miracles. The closest to it in the other gospels is when he fed the multitude but that sits better with me as an example of Mary vs Martha with Mary getting provided for.

That said, John’s gospel is dramatic. He frames Jesus’ sermons with relevant scenes (the most prominent in my mind is when Judas leaves to betray him “it was night”. I think John wishes it was raining and the thunder clapped so he could have used that too), and the setting here is a wedding (his, if you follow Orson Pratt’s teachings). Implicit in this (John uses implicit scenes, I don’t think he always names the holy day but assumes the reader knows) is the image of Christ as bridegroom to the church, but I don’t see how that connects with the miracle.

The other relevant thing I keep in mind is that John likes to testify of high christology (hence his genealogy of Jesus predates even Adam in ultimate gospel one-upmanship). The farthest I can get with that in this instance is to borrow from CS Lewis who used this as an example of how miracles follow natural law (often laws we have yet to discover) and see that this is a witness that Jesus is the Creator and is able to perform the same act as grapes turning water to wine.

But that feels like a stretch to me.

Although it's common to claim that this story is simply about Jesus respecting his mother, a key issue a number of scholars have raised is that given the traditions of the time, Mary shouldn't have had any part in the planning, let alone functioning, of the wedding and resulting ceremony unless one of the people being married was a very close blood relative. 

This has led to speculation about just whose wedding this was that Jesus felt compelled to make this happen, with a few scholars using it as an argument in favor of Jesus being married saying that it was probably *his* wedding. 

[zil2]

19 hours ago, mordorbund said:

John’s gospel is dramatic. He frames Jesus’ sermons with relevant scenes (the most prominent in my mind is when Judas leaves to betray him “it was night”. I think John wishes it was raining and the thunder clapped so he could have used that too)

First, I wish to say I appreciate all responses, as I want to expand my own thinking, if I can.  I've also wondered about the "justification" of the miracle in question.  As mentioned, it seems unique in that it only appears to save someone from inconvenience, expense, and / or embarrassment.  I rather like how The Chosen handles this - that Thomas was one of the caterers.   (And yes, pure fiction, but I like it anyway.)

Verse 11 is justification enough for me, not that I really need any:

Quote

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

But more than how credible or complete the story is, and more than the facts of the event, I am concerned with these two things:

On 2/16/2023 at 9:22 AM, zil2 said:

1. What does this tell me about the character and behavior of God / Christ?

2. What does this teach me to think / feel / say / do?

I already mentioned #2, to a degree.  The speaker mentioned that Christ listened to the person with the problem, and rather than jumping straight to "let me fix that for you", he asked, "what would you like me to do?"  She then shared the story (sorry, can't remember the details), of a sister with children, going through some trial. Church members did what they always do: brought her food.  When the speaker (or maybe it was someone else) entered this sister's house to see what the sister needed, it was overflowing with food.  The sister didn't need food.  But no one was asking or listening.  I think another lesson from that was for the person in need - don't be afraid to say what you do need (otherwise people will dump a boatload of food on you).

But then there's #1.  What does this story teach us about the character and behavior of our Savior?  Anyone have thoughts on that one?

[estradling75]

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

But then there's #1.  What does this story teach us about the character and behavior of our Savior?  Anyone have thoughts on that one?

Other have spoken about trying to make the miracle "fit"...  But what if it fits just fine with a different understanding of Christ's character, or maybe not different understanding just rearranged a bit.

We are important to our Savior and our Father.  Because of this that which is important to us, becomes important to them.

They delight in blessing us..  The only limits are our faith, and it being 'Right' according to the wisdom of God.

So why wouldn't this fall neatly into that category.  It was important to Mary.  Mary had faith.  While we can't judge it being 'Right' according to the wisdom of God, it seems clear that it was.  So he delighted to do it.

This would mean that in addition in needing Faith for a miracle it also needs to be right.  For example I am sure many here have the Faith to have a miracle of great wealth, but they do not get it.  Most likely because it would destroy them.

But turning water into wine for one event?  Doesn't seem like that has too many downsides will lots of faith affirming upsides.

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

We are important to our Savior and our Father.  Because of this that which is important to us, becomes important to them.

They delight in blessing us..  The only limits are our faith, and it being 'Right' according to the wisdom of God.

This was my conclusion.  I have experienced blessings in my life that really, there was no explanation for other than that God loves me.  Some people would call them coincidences or natural consequences, but I know otherwise.  Lately I've been wondering how much we miss out on because we let practicality get in the way.  I'm not suggesting we stop going to the grocery store and expect the Lord to multiple the food that's in the house (though I really wouldn't complain if my half gallon of ice cream never ran out).  But I do wonder if there aren't more blessings available, but first we have to think it through and ask.  And perhaps do some preparing...

2 Kings 4 (bold bit is mine)

Quote

1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.

2 And Elisha said unto her, What shall I do for thee? tell me, what hast thou in the house? And she said, Thine handmaid hath not any thing in the house, save a pot of oil.

3 Then he said, Go, borrow thee vessels abroad of all thy neighbours, even empty vessels; borrow not a few.

4 And when thou art come in, thou shalt shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and shalt pour out into all those vessels, and thou shalt set aside that which is full.

5 So she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons, who brought the vessels to her; and she poured out.

6 And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed.

7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest.

It seems to me, the more she borrowed, the more the Lord would have given her.  How much more might we receive if we, figuratively, crammed our house to the rafters full of vessels in which to receive?

I've also assumed that Christ loved and honored his earthly parents.  His mother had a problem she apparently couldn't solve.  He loved her, and helped her, as a good son would.   We do a lot for family, even when their problems seem like they could have been avoided.  To me, this story speaks of the love and mercy and generosity of God.  It teaches us to come to Him with our problems, great and small.

[Just_A_Guy]

Two issues pointed out in the footnotes to this chapter in the NET Bible:

1). Middle eastern culture at the time had a strong element of reciprocity, and it was theoretically possible to sue a wedding guest who offered an unsuitable gift or a host who did not properly look after his guests.  Thus, Jesus acts as a literal savior to those responsible for putting on the wedding.

2).  The wine is created in stone water vessels used for Jewish purification rites.  This is an omen that religious mores are about to be deeply shaken—as significant to people of Jesus’s day as if a temple president went into the temple one morning to find that the water in the baptismal font had turned into milk.  We don’t know what’s coming, but we know something big is about to happen.

Another thought:  This sets the stage for Jesus’s encounter with the temple authorities when they ask him for a sign—we know Jesus could give them a sign, if He wants to; but He chooses not to and instead answers them in riddles.

Another:  the change from water to wine foreshadows the change Jesus is about to tell Nicodemus all humans must go through:    spiritual rebirth.

Another:  water can symbolize life, and wine can symbolize abundance; prefiguring John 10:10.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Just_A_Guy