Liberal success?

[Traveler]

Perhaps my political views are highly biased.  Though I consider myself a conservative – I am not a Republican (enough said).  My question is there anything that anyone believes the current Democratic (liberal – progressive) administration has handled well – that deserves accolades.

Economy – We were told that the inflation was “transitory”.  That turned out to be wrong – there has been not recovery from inflation.  Though it has tapered off, the economy is more tenuous and the same prognosticators that claimed inflation was transitory and not important – are still in control of economic policy – there is no consideration for other opinions.  I give the liberals an F in economics.

Military – We were told by the top liberal military minds that Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan were not organized nor competent – that when the US withdrew from Afghanistan that it would take months or years for the Islamic extremists to over through the US installed and trained government and military.  It was the same liberal military minds that predicted that if Russia invaded Ukraine that Ukraine would fall within 72 hours.  Obviously, even though the liberal military minds had access to the most accurate intelligence – they are incapable of interpreting anything to any degree of accuracy --- I give the liberal military minds F-.

Health care – The liberal health care minds promised that they would handle the COVID pandemic much better than conservative minds.  Though conservative minds produced a vaccine – the liberal health minds – produced nothing.  There were more COVID death under liberal mandates and there was zero progress in producing any possible COVID cure with full FDA approval.   I give the liberal health care minds an F-.

Transportation – disaster mitigations – I give another F.

Education and technology – I give F and D.  It seems that innovation is happening less in the US and more abroad.

Civil unity – I give an F.  There is no reaching across the aisle to consider ideas to bring unity.  Liberal minds do no better or worse than conservative minds.

Border and illegal immigration – There is no place in the USA, even considering the most liberally controlled sanctuary states or cities that proclaims that the border policies are beneficial to anybody and that they will gladly accept whatever illegal immigration is allowed to their states and cities and wish for more.  I give the liberals a definite F-.

I realize that I have a political bias – but I wonder if anyone that considers themselves a liberal is happy and proud and wants to proclaim to the world anything wonderful the liberals have accomplished (by themselves with their political clout) during the last two years in the USA that they believe should be and example to the world of how a society ought to be run and differing ideas and agendas addressed????

I apologize to the forum mediators in advance for any discomfort this thread may bring.  I do wonder what it is that I am not seeing or realizing?

 

The Traveler

[mirkwood]

No, I can't think of anything they've gotten right.  I think this is one of the worst, if not the worst, administrations in my lifetime.  I'm willing to listen to arguements to the contrary.

[Ironhold]

Don't forget that when gas prices spiked last year the general response from the administration was to mock people for having cars with gasoline-driven engines. 

Several officials kept talking about how they were able to just keep driving on past gas stations thanks to their electric vehicles, not realizing that:

1. The people most affected by the rise in gas prices were the least able to afford an electric vehicle even if they traded their current ride in

2. There was no guarantee that anyone could acquire an electric vehicle anyway due to manufacturing shortages caused by disruptions to the supply chain

3. Even if a person had an electric vehicle, there was no guarantee that they'd be able to find any sort of publicly accessible charging station and so would have a very limited range that would largely confine them to the area around their homes (homes, as in free-standing residences, not apartments)

4. Even if a person lived in a home, there is no guarantee that their local power grid would be able to handle large numbers of electric vehicles all trying to charge at once. 

It was a very big "let them eat cake" moment. 

[Guest Godless]

I'm far from being a Biden apologist, but two accomplishments come to mind:

1. Unemployment below pre-COVID levels. The wording here is important. Trump touted "record" job creation and stock market gains in the second half of 2020, when in reality the markets were just normalizing after being pummeled by shutdowns. Last I checked, unemployment was at 3.4%, the lowest it's been since 1969.

2. Infrastructure Bill. The recent train derailments have highlighted how long overdue this is. In the long term, this bill will improve local economies and quality of life. But don't take my word for it. Listen to the Republicans who opposed the bill:

 

Okay, that last one isn't related to the infrastructure bill. The funding for the Mankato Airport renovation was part of a COVID relief bill that Hagedorn (my congressman at the time) voted against.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Godless

[Just_A_Guy]

I don’t know that COVID deaths or recent international relations catastrophes can really be properly politicized (very much).  

—COVID was a tough situation all around.  The lockdowns, as it turned out, were likely overkill; and there was a lot of mask drama.  That whole business has left lingering questions over civil liberties, the power of government, and the reliability of the medical and scientific establishments.  But in terms of actual deaths, I’m not sure that there’s much that could have been done that wasn’t done.  It was inevitably going to be ugly.  And if you believe that the vaccine saved thousands of lives (and I recognize many don’t, but I’m speaking to those who do)—the development and distribution of those vaccines were largely a bipartisan enterprise; and you should be proud of the national effort that produced it.

—I’m inclined to be a defense hawk, and I mistrust Dems on global affairs generally.  (And I’m concerned with the extent to which DEI is apparently being prioritized over force readiness, and a general animus towards political conservatives is seemingly being deliberately inculcated into the Biden military.)  And the results of Biden’s fecklessness in Afghanistan (particularly when we trained their army to fight with air support, and then pretty much sabotaged their ability to maintain their Air Force) and his pussyfooting around with Russia were, of course, predictable.  But to be fair, Biden also inherited a very bad hand.  The prior administration had trouble developing, communicating, and sticking with a coherent strategy.  Top level lieutenants had no idea what their boss was going to do best; and the status of many old alliances had been placed into some degree of doubt.  Some degree of re-evaluating the global security status quo was probably appropriate; and certainly a head of state can to some degree get what he wants over the long time by maintaining an aura of unpredictability (just ask the North Koreans).  But the presidency isn’t a lifetime appointment; and it’s hard for the new guy to keep a lid on things when his predecessor has spent four years playing Calvinball with the both the domestic and global diplomatic and security establishments.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 And if you believe that the vaccine saved thousands of lives (and I recognize many don’t, but I’m speaking to those who do)—the development and distribution of those vaccines were largely a bipartisan enterprise; and you should be proud of the national effort that produced it.

You are speaking right to me, but I don’t feel any pride about either getting the vaccine and certainly not for it’s development. I did nothing but get the shots. That’s not really anything to be proud of-but it’s not something to be ashamed of either. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

You are speaking right to me, but I don’t feel any pride about either getting the vaccine and certainly not for it’s development. I did nothing but get the shots. That’s not really anything to be proud of-but it’s not something to be ashamed of either. 

My parents didn’t do anything to get NASA to the moon; but they (rightly, I think) took pride in the national achievement.  

[LDSGator]

30 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My parents didn’t do anything to get NASA to the moon; but they (rightly, I think) took pride in the national achievement.  

If it makes them happy, that’s great. My dad felt the same way I bet even though he was pretty young when it happened. 
 

I’m a “proud” American I guess. I‘m certainly grateful to have been born and raised here.  One of my tattoos is of the American flag. I cheered when they captured and executed Usama Bin Laden. But I didn’t feel personal pride like I do with my accomplishments.  After all, me sitting on the couch eating chips did nothing to find him. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[Just_A_Guy]

15 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

If it makes them happy, that’s great. My dad felt the same way I bet even though he was pretty young when it happened. 
 

I’m a “proud” American I guess. I‘m certainly grateful to have been born and raised here.  I cheered when they captured and executed Usama Bin Laden. But I didn’t feel personal pride like I do with my accomplishments.  After all, me sitting on the couch eating chips did nothing to find him. 

Don’t talk yourself down like that.  I’m sure they heard you yelling at your TV set all the way in Kabul.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Don’t talk yourself down like that.  I’m sure they heard you yelling at your TV set all the way in Kabul.

Stolen valor right there bro. 

[Grunt]

It's important to note when discussing unemployment rates that the size of the willing workforce matters.   Unemployment rates will drop when people leave the workforce, but that doesn't mean that actual employment rates are up.   It's a shell game.

[mordorbund]

18 hours ago, LDSGator said:

If it makes them happy, that’s great. My dad felt the same way I bet even though he was pretty young when it happened. 
 

I’m a “proud” American I guess. I‘m certainly grateful to have been born and raised here.  One of my tattoos is of the American flag. I cheered when they captured and executed Usama Bin Laden. But I didn’t feel personal pride like I do with my accomplishments.  After all, me sitting on the couch eating chips did nothing to find him. 

@LDSGatordo you even watch sports bro? I think you’ve been doing it wrong.

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

@LDSGatordo you even watch sports bro? I think you’ve been doing it wrong.

Lol! I know right? It’s “we won” and “they lost”. 
 

I have been known to be watch the occasional sporting event under extreme social pressure. 😉 

Edited February 20, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Ok, I must begrudgingly admit, this is not a small thing.  (It might be to Americans and the American media, but on the world stage, this is not a meaningless photo op.)

“President Joe Biden made a surprise visit to Ukraine today, landing in Kyiv after departing from Washington early Sunday morning. This is the first trip by a U.S. president to a war zone in nearly a decade. By 7 a.m. in Washington, Biden had already left the Ukrainian capital, according to Sabrina Siddiqui of the Wall Street Journal, today’s pooler.

With air raid sirens wailing in the background, Biden said he wanted to demonstrate U.S. solidarity with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenzky on the first anniversary of the Russian invasion on Feb. 24.”

[Traveler]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:29 PM, Godless said:

I'm far from being a Biden apologist, but two accomplishments come to mind:

1. Unemployment below pre-COVID levels. The wording here is important. Trump touted "record" job creation and stock market gains in the second half of 2020, when in reality the markets were just normalizing after being pummeled by shutdowns. Last I checked, unemployment was at 3.4%, the lowest it's been since 1969.

2. Infrastructure Bill. The recent train derailments have highlighted how long overdue this is. In the long term, this bill will improve local economies and quality of life. But don't take my word for it. Listen to the Republicans who opposed the bill:

........

Okay, that last one isn't related to the infrastructure bill. The funding for the Mankato Airport renovation was part of a COVID relief bill that Hagedorn (my congressman at the time) voted against.

Some of these things (to me) are not exactly what they are purported to be.   First off: if unemployment is so low (lowest since 1969) why do we need student debt relief?  In general, why are programs for the “poor” needed to be expanded?  Why do we need to expand the debt ceiling?   Why can’t we go back to an economically applied government subsidies similar to 1969? (which were about 2% of GDP and now are over 12% GDP?  Something has to be missing but thanks for your input – I am very interested in liberal thinking and the math they employ.  Also I am curious if the current unemployment statistics include accurate numbers resulting from uncontrolled immigrations at our borders.

Secondly – Infrastructure.  You mentioned the recent train derailment.  Which was first reported as break failures on the train – not because of overdue infrastructure.  BTW there are regulations in place that should have prevented the break failures – but were not being enforced.   This is a failure of the administration and the transportation department.  I am willing to bet that we do not hear anything more about failing breaks. 

I would also point out that the infrastructure bill is yet to produce results.  The question still remains – if the total effects of the bill will be beneficial.  Remember that Trump pushed infrastructure – why did the liberals oppose the idea then – saying it was not needed.

 

Sorry for my response - I wonder if liberals really believe the rhetoric. 

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

wonder if liberals really believe the rhetoric. 

they wonder why the party that embraces family values sold out to a thrice married NYC real estate investor who has a serious anger management issue and a very bad potty mouth*. So it’s a two way street. The GOP rhetoric on family values is all rubbish too when it really matters. 
 

*Trumps personal life and demeanor don’t bother me at all. I don’t have to live with him so why should I care?

Edited February 20, 2023 by LDSGator

[Traveler]

30 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

they wonder why the party that embraces family values sold out to a thrice married NYC real estate investor who has a serious anger management issue and a very bad potty mouth*. So it’s a two way street. 
 

*Trumps personal life and demeanor don’t bother me at all. I don’t have to live with him so why should I care?

Trump bothers me but more for reasons you did not list.  What I hoped for under Trump – mostly that he would expose the corruption in Washington – and it was accomplished exposing both parties.  What amazes me is that no one seems to care about the corruption in the party they align themselves with – in fact they seem to support it until it personally costs them money – even then I am not 100% sure.

One thing that greatly concerns me --- I believe that the voter registration need means to drop all voters that have died or moved.  I will support any candidate for any office that has a good idea or intends to clean the voter rolls.  But this is really a States issue.  But this is number one on my list for candidates – unless they want nuclear war in the Middle East or with Russia and China or something else as bad.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

  What amazes me is that no one seems to care about the corruption in the party they align themselves with

We agree on that fully, but it no longer amazes me. The left, the right, Catholics/Protestants all of us do that. Including @Traveler and @LDSGator. 
 

The only thing that slightly amazes me is when you meet people over 40ish who still believe that everyone else is corrupt except people who agree with themselves. That sort of amazes me I guess, but it’s like the people who think everyone is stupid by themselves too. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by LDSGator

[Traveler]

27 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

We agree on that fully, but it no longer amazes me. The left, the right, Catholics/Protestants all of us do that. Including @Traveler and @LDSGator. 
 

The only thing that slightly amazes me is when you meet people over 40ish who still believe that everyone else is corrupt except people who agree with themselves. That sort of amazes me I guess. 

Just so you know – I am officially registered as a Libertarian – and I have only ever voted for a libertarian once.  I did not support Romney nor Hatch.  When I first moved back to Utah there was a Democrat (Karen Shephard) running against a Republican (Enid Green).  Enid was a complete idiot and Karen was sharp and knowledgeable.  The very conservative state of Utah (including me) voted overwhelmingly for Karen Shephard.  Karen Shephard, once elected, never supported a single issue that concerned conservative Utahans despite her LDS connections.  It was the last time I have ever voted for a Democrat in Utah – with the exception of someone that I knew personally.  The only person related to politics I have much respect for is Trey Gowdy.   I would list Tulsi Gabbard as a Democrat, but she is no longer a Democrat.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

Just now, Traveler said:

Just so you know – I am officially registered as a Libertarian – and I have only ever voted for a libertarian once.  I did not support Romney nor Hatch.  When I first moved back to Utah there was a Democrat (Karen Shephard) running against a Republican (Enid Green).  Enid was a complete idiot and Karen was sharp and knowledgeable.  The very conservative state of Utah (including me) voted overwhelmingly for Karen Shephard.  Karen Shephard, once elected, never supported a single issue that concerned conservative Utahans despite her LDS connections.  It was the last time I have ever voted for a Democrat in Utah – with the exception of someone that I knew personally.  The only person related to politics I have much respect for is Trey Gowdy.   I would list Tulsi Gabbard as a Democrat, but she is no longer a Democrat.

 

The Traveler

From one libertarian to another-We’re just as guilty. Libertarians can be as illogical, contradictory, thin skinned and sensitive as the rest of em’. 

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Some of these things (to me) are not exactly what they are purported to be.   First off: if unemployment is so low (lowest since 1969) why do we need student debt relief?

Because current interest rates on student loans are predatory to the point that even someone working full-time will have a long road towards paying them off. Meanwhile, having so much capital tied up in student loan debt prevents people from buying homes, something that, one might argue, led to the mass purchase of real estate by investment firms and corporate landlords, which in turn made purchasing a home even harder.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

  In general, why are programs for the “poor” needed to be expanded?

Because there are full-time workers at Wal Mart, McDonald's, and Amazon (among many others, I'm sure) who are on welfare benefits/food stamps. In effect, American taxpayers are subsidizing the low wages of some of our country's largest employers. I'd argue that we don't need to expand those benefits. Instead, it makes more sense to enact radical wage reform. One of the two needs to happen.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

  Secondly – Infrastructure.  You mentioned the recent train derailment.  Which was first reported as break failures on the train – not because of overdue infrastructure.  BTW there are regulations in place that should have prevented the break failures – but were not being enforced.   This is a failure of the administration and the transportation department.  I am willing to bet that we do not hear anything more about failing breaks. 

There were regulations pertaining to train brakes put in place during the Obama administration. Those regulations were repealed under Trump in 2017. My understanding is that there's a provision in the FAST Act that made it difficult for the current administration to simply restore the old regulations. That's not to say that I hold them blameless, to be clear.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I would also point out that the infrastructure bill is yet to produce results.  The question still remains – if the total effects of the bill will be beneficial. 

The largest political drawback to infrastructure legislation is the amount of time it takes to see real results. We likely won't see the full fruits of Biden's bill until he's out of office.

 

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Remember that Trump pushed infrastructure – why did the liberals oppose the idea then – saying it was not needed.

That's not what happened. Trump and Dem leadership came to an agreement on an infrastructure spending package, but there was bipartisan pushback over how the bill would be funded. And at one point, Trump walked out of talks with Schumer and Pelosi because he was upset about the Mueller investigation and the looming threat of impeachment proceedings. For better or worse, though, Democrats did show up and try to get something done.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

Because current interest rates on student loans are predatory to the point that even someone working full-time will have a long road towards paying them off.

Nonsense. Current student loan interest rates are at or below 5%. A generation ago, my wife and I paid between 8% and 8.5% on our student loans. The idea that the current rates are "predatory" is simply false. You would have much more success arguing that tuition rates are predatory, a statement I would probably agree with. But even then, I oppose so-called debt relief.

(To be clear, my family would greatly benefit financially from such "relief". My children collectively have tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, mostly my law school graduate. But it's wrong. It's immoral. It's stealing money from the responsible and productive—you know, the ones who PAID THEIR OWN STUDENT LOANS OFF.)

1 hour ago, Godless said:

Because there are full-time workers at Wal Mart, McDonald's, and Amazon (among many others, I'm sure) who are on welfare benefits/food stamps. In effect, American taxpayers are subsidizing the low wages of some of our country's largest employers. I'd argue that we don't need to expand those benefits. Instead, it makes more sense to enact radical wage reform. One of the two needs to happen.

Why? Raising the minimum wage is, at best, a very temporary measure to ease problems, and causes many more problems downstream. Why doesn't the government simply print up one million dollars per person and then distribute the cash? We'd all be rich! Um, well, no, of course we wouldn't. That's not how money works. But the Left certainly seems to think that's how money works.

1 hour ago, Godless said:

The largest political drawback to infrastructure legislation is the amount of time it takes to see real results. We likely won't see the full fruits of Biden's bill until he's out of office.

Then why did you not grant the same generosity to the Trump Administration? Give it ten years before passing judgment on relaxing regulation restrictions, for example. Apparently, goose sauce ain't gander sauce.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Current student loan interest rates are at or below 5%.

They should be at 0%.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

You would have much more success arguing that tuition rates are predatory, a statement I would probably agree with.

It's all part of the same scheme.  Colleges were cheaper before I was born, even after adjusting for inflation.  But thanks to government intervention, colleges realized that they could just get free money.  So, they raised tuition.  Then government said,"See!  Tuition is so high, we HAVE TO offer freebies!"  Pell Grants were born.  Then private universities wanted a piece of that pie, so they were willing to bow to collectivist doctrines, or, rather, standards in education forgetting the history of private universities as religious institutions.

This was all to get recently minted adults (aka voters) into indoctrination camps, uhr, I mean public universities, to learn the merits of communism -- or rather, government assisted charity.

Bottom line:  If the government stayed out of it, the gradually increasing standard of living from the 50s to the 90s would have allowed a LOT of people to get higher education for a lot cheaper, without government indoctrination.

[scottyg]

8 hours ago, Godless said:

Because current interest rates on student loans are predatory to the point that even someone working full-time will have a long road towards paying them off.

Since when is an optional loan of 5% predatory? I'm an RN with a masters degree. I also graduated with zero student debt as I cash flowed my entire education. I didn't sign up for school unless I could pay for it myself upfront. It can be done as long as kids pay attention, make smart financial decisions, and don't live off of their loans. College for most is just a big party, and then they graduate with a worthless degree in communications or liberal arts that doesn't translate to real world employment. You want to look at predatory interest rates then take a gander at most credit cards with 19-25% interest...I don't see our politicians saying anything about that.