Only Begotten


mikbone
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Do you believe the earthly body of Only Begotten Son of the Father, Jesus Christ, had human DNA? If you do, from where and whom do you believe he got the male side of his DNA profile?

Yup, I figure that Jesus Christ was 100% mortal & 100% God.

Obviously Jesus Christ’s DNA came from His Father.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If dwelling in everlasting burnings denatures protein, why doesn’t that fire also denature the protein in God the Father’s body of flesh and bone, a body that’s as tangible as man’s? In other words, why doesn’t the fire consume and destroy God’s flesh and bone? Or is it only the DNA portion of resurrected human protein that will denature in fire?

I don’t think a celestialized body is made out of the same stuff that we are.

Could be silicon instead of carbon based.

Or made of the elusive Dark Matter physicists are looking for.

Or likely something we can’t even imagine.

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

This has become a fairly frequent approach for General Conference addresses. Quite a few such addresses are organised around the idea of giving the listener a list of 3 or 4 things they need to do to accomplish a specific objective.

Whole heartedly believe in this.

From residency my Chairman taught us to never teach more than 3 principles during a presentation.  

The majority of humans can only take so much information during a 15-30 min talk.

Have a clear goal.  Know your 3 topics and hit them hard. Each participant should be able to recall those 3 items.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/14/2023 at 2:46 PM, Vort said:

Perhaps not in this particular venue, but I grew up hearing the common LDS idea that the act of partaking of the sacrament cleanses us from sin as a sort of rebaptism. For that matter, the physical act of baptism does not cleanse us, either, though we teach our children, new converts, and even each other that it does. Christ's atonement cleanses sin, and as far as I understand, nothing else does. The baptism itself is the formal making of a covenant. Through the covenant we receive Christ's atoning blood. Salvation lies not in being baptized and partaking of the sacrament, but through being baptized and partaking of the sacrament. This distinction is very often lost.

I was brought up learning that as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re the whole lists thing: Here's my take.

What I tend to believe is the we are imperfect people and, consequently, there's really no perfect system for us, as a whole. As @Carborendum suggested, lists work wonders for some. For others they're terrible. I've heard it expressed that Ministering is the new "higher" way and Home Teaching was the old "lower" way. The thinking is understandable. But I don't believe it. I don't think one was higher and the other lower. They're just different. Ministering is right for our time. I'll trust that.

It's not that certain things can't be considered higher or lower. I understand that. That's not the question to me. The question is better or worse. And, as has been suggested, that's subjective. Was everyone born under the Law of Moses better suited to such a law? Is everyone born now better suited to live without the Law of Moses? Somehow I doubt it.

Sure...the Law of Moses was a lesser law. There's meaning in that beyond effectiveness. If it was a matter of effectiveness then we'd all be born under the same law. We are all born with different situations under different laws, different cultures, different etc., etc. Then we think (quite arrogantly, I might add) that we have it figured out and know the most effective way. I doubt it.

The thing that tends to bother me in any of these sorts of discussions is that arrogance. And not for the arrogance itself. That'll happen here and there. I'm certainly guilty. It's the arrogance that leads to judgmental holier-than-thou-ness. That's the part that bothers me.

Of course I'm guilty of that too. And it's complicated. There's a certain level where we can safely say that we should all see things the same, and anyone who doesn't see it that way is at risk. I think that's fair to a certain degree. But that level is faith, obedience, and repentance. It's not in esoteric views of whether Jesus is our "elder brother" or not.

But it's more than that... (here's where the complicated comes more into play). It's one thing to believe we need to believe a certain way. It's another to look down our noses at others for believing differently. That's a challenge. How can we believe something is true and important without also looking down our noses at those who see it differently?

And then, to complicate up the matter even further...we do our best to preach what we believe to be true, and also do our best to do so humbly and without pride or arrogance, and other's are still offended and still take our views as holier-than-thou.

Challenging.

What I do believe, however, is that there are clearly those who are just arguing against things in the church because they are trying to justify themselves. And then there are others who are sincere, humble, doing their best, but see things differently -- and perhaps wrongly. I think I can tell the difference. Maybe not. But should we be treating these two in the same manner? Part of me says no...speak truth bluntly. But part of me (a part that's winning out in my current state of thinking) say to give the latter the STRONG benefit of the doubt -- as I would hope others give to me when I am wrong. And perhaps that's true of those trying to justify themselves...because don't we all do that too?

I don't know. I'm still fumbling in my attempts to understand how to approach a lot of these things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep, and the revision to For the Strength of Youth is much more principle based and less checklist-ey.  

I'm a fan of both.  I have sufficient trust in the humans designing curricula, that even if they radically redesign the lesson on repentance, I'm sure it will be an improvement.

That said, I'm not going to stop being a fan of the 7 step 'wheel of repentance'.  I'm not overstating it, but I am literally alive  and faithful today because of that chapter and those 7 items.  There are folks out there who have concluded the great plan of happiness just isn't for them, because of what they've done (often incorrectly internalized as 'who they are').  That checklist, when it arrives after the knowledge of the Savior and His atoning sacrifice, offers hope where there is none available from any other avenue.

I also like the church's addiction recovery plan, based on the classic AA 12 steps.  And an entire industry of how to rock, spawned by Franklin Covey's '7 habits of highly effective people'.  And I also like carrying around a clipboard. :)

There is a reason that President Kimball oversaw lyrical modifications that changed one of my favorite Primary hymns from "...teach me all that I must KNOW to live with him someday" to "...teach me all that I must DO to live with him someday."

Edited by Vort
Brain lapse. That's what I get for being 60.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Whole heartedly believe in this.

From residency my Chairman taught us to never teach more than 3 principles during a presentation.  

The majority of humans can only take so much information during a 15-30 min talk.

Have a clear goal.  Know your 3 topics and hit them hard. Each participant should be able to recall those 3 items.

 

1. Have a clear goal.  

2. Know your 3 topics and

3. hit them hard.

I see you are practicing what you preach :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/14/2023 at 4:59 AM, mikbone said:

My mother taught me that when Jesus Christ was conceived, the Holy Ghost overshadowed the Virgin Mary.  And then Heavenly Father impregnated the Virgin Mary thus a celestial sperm united with a mortal egg which became Jesus Christ.

Was anyone else taught this?

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine. As far as we know, nothing was added to the water, it just changed from what it was to what Jesus wanted it to be. I suspect that an egg, if indeed one was needed, could have been produced and placed where it was needed, in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine. As far as we know, nothing was added to the water, it just changed from what it was to what Jesus wanted it to be. I suspect that an egg, if indeed one was needed, could have been produced and placed where it was needed, in the same way.

So now we get down to the nuts and bolts.  No pun intended.

Matthew 1: 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

To me it sounds like the Holy Ghost placed the seed where it needed to be.

The question is what did he deliver?  A sperm or a zygote?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

1. Have a clear goal.  

2. Know your 3 topics and

3. hit them hard.

I see you are practicing what you preach :)

While we are talking about pithy triads, the above reminds me of something a great-grandfather of mine commonly reminded his kids about public speaking:

1.  Stand up, so you can be seen.

2.  Speak up, so you can be heard.

3.  Sit down, so you can be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, mikbone said:

Yup, I figure that Jesus Christ was 100% mortal & 100% God.

I have heard this many times.  However, as a trained mathematician I cannot connect it to any logic that makes sense to me.  Likewise with statements like giving 110% or especially giving 1000%.  This all bring to mind the Book of Mormon scripture that asks, “Know ye not the condescension of G-d?”

As a student of your posts – I enjoy your many additions – Thanks.  Perhaps you can use some of the logic in you training to help me understand and connect.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine. As far as we know, nothing was added to the water, it just changed from what it was to what Jesus wanted it to be. I suspect that an egg, if indeed one was needed, could have been produced and placed where it was needed, in the same way. 

It has always been my understanding that something indeed was added.  There is a similar problem to an initial singularity to which something was added by the power of divine priesthood that organized that (chaotic – unorganized and unusable) singularity into our very complex and useful universe.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have heard this many times.  However, as a trained mathematician I cannot connect it to any logic that makes sense to me.  Likewise with statements like giving 110% or especially giving 1000%.  This all bring to mind the Book of Mormon scripture that asks, “Know ye not the condescension of G-d?”

Well, the Holy Ghost is 100% spirit and 100% God.

Elohim is 100% Immortal Flesh and Bone and 100% God.

Jesus Christ was 100% Mortal Flesh and Blood and 100% God.

What made Jesus a God was not his physical substance.  It was his knowledge, past experiences, and power.  

There are many that believe that Heavenly Father was like a galivainting greek god.  In that Jesus, during his mortal ministry, was a half-breed like the hero Hercules having an immortal father and a mortal mother.  That an immortal sperm joined a mortal egg producing a 50% immortal 50% mortal embryo. 

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:
21 hours ago, mikbone said:

Yup, I figure that Jesus Christ was 100% mortal & 100% God.

I have heard this many times.  However, as a trained mathematician I cannot connect it to any logic that makes sense to me.

It makes sense if you consider mortality and Godliness to be mutually orthogonal vectors, or perhaps not even sharing the same vector space, occupying separate non-mapping vector spaces (which I guess would be called "orthogonal vector spaces"). The statement that the mortal Jesus was both mortal and God is indisputably true, so somehow those two things must harmonize.

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

There are many that believe that Heavenly Father was like a galivainting greek god.  In that Jesus, during his mortal ministry, was a half-breed like the hero Hercules having an immortal father and a mortal mother.  That an immortal sperm joined a mortal egg producing a 50% immortal 50% mortal embryo.

Count me as one who considers this stuff and nonsense, or to be more specific, heresy of the most damning sort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vort said:

to be mutually orthogonal vectors, or perhaps not even sharing the same vector space, occupying separate non-mapping vector spaces (which I guess would be called "orthogonal vector spaces").

You should take this line of thought to a separate thread…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the pre-mortal existence, when we first met Jehovah. He was already the Firstborn and Only Begotten.

He pre-dates us and had already entered into a covenant with the Father wherein he was spiritually adopted (begotten) by the Father.  Sense none of the rest of us had entered into that covenant Jehovah was the Only Begotten.

Jehovah had already entered into his exaltation.  He had the innate ability to create physically.  He was one with the Father and knew the Father’s will and had been instructed in many subjects.

Jehovah while in the pre-mortal existence had already been conditioned against sin.  And he had learned the power over life and death.

President John Taylor said of the condescension of Christ, “It was further necessary that He should descend below all things, in order that He might raise others above all things; for if He could not raise Himself and be exalted through those principles brought about by the atonement, He could not raise others; He could not do for others what He could not do for Himself.”

The condescension of Jehovah allowed an almighty God to become a lowly mortal and experience life much like we do.  No doubt he had the power as a 12 year old to conquer the world even more so than Alexander the Great.  He could have twinkled himself at any moment and gone straight from a mortal to a glorified Immortal.  But He didn’t.  He came here to live like us and lift us up through his example and the Atonement.

His mortal birth did not imbue him with power.  On the contrary, it humbled him and made him dependent upon a teenage girl for his sustenance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/14/2023 at 1:10 PM, mikbone said:

Another example is the affection that I have heard many times describing Jesus Christ as our Elder Brother.

This verse might provide some support for considering Christ to be our brother:

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My amother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and bdo it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

This verse might provide some support for considering Christ to be our brother:

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My amother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and bdo it.

Here are a few that expalin how Jesus is a Father. 

Mosiah 16: 15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Alma 11: 38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

Iasiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

D&C: 34 1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

 

D&C 39: 1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

 

Mosiah 15: 12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

D&C 76: 24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Mosiah 5: 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Ether 3: 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

 

D&C 38 1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;

2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;

3 I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.

 

D&C 93:21-22 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

Alma 1: 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

 

Mosiah 26 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.

23 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand.

24 For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.

 

Alma 5:15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This verse might provide some support for considering Christ to be our brother:

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My amother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and bdo it.

Thanks again for this post.  And for doing your weekly Come Follow Me.

Matthew 12: 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

This is really an edge case.  Jesus here looks like he might be saying he is a brother.  But if you look closer…

He is not talking about a spiritual relationship.  In this case he is actually talking about his immediate family (the virgin Mary and his half-siblings [even a half-sister v. 50]).  And He is prompted to give this response as someone else brings up his family.  In essence he is saying that his disciples are his immediate family.

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/16/2023 at 7:46 PM, mikbone said:

So now we get down to the nuts and bolts.  No pun intended.

Matthew 1: 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

To me it sounds like the Holy Ghost placed the seed where it needed to be.

The question is what did he deliver?  A sperm or a zygote?

 

According to Luke 1:31 and 35, His power.

"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. ...And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

This same power caused Elizabeth to conceive (verses 36, 37): "And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible."

It does not seem to matter that Elizabeth required Zacharias' seed to conceive, while Mary did not when she also was acted upon by the power to make all things possible (D&C 88: 6, 13, 17, 40, 41, 67).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share