John 9:2 and John 11:4

[askandanswer]

 

John 11: 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the ^aglory of God, that the Son of God might be ^bglorified thereby.

 John 9: 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this ^aman, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the ^aworks of God should be made ^bmanifest in him.

 

My understanding of John 9:2 is that in response to a question about whether a man’s affliction was a result of his, or his parent’s sin, Jesus said neither, and that this man was afflicted with blindness so that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

My understanding of John 11:4 is that Jesus explained that the reason for a man’s death was so that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

[Vort]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

Yes, I think so.

I believe the John 9 example is outstanding because it clearly implies a premortal life, where people might possibly sin and be born blind as a result. Funny how other religions seem just to glide right over the obvious implications of this verse.

[laronius]

Since we are His work and glory, then yes, everything that comes with life (even death) can be made to serve His great purposes.

[Traveler]

I have suggested a number of times that there is a possibility that the events of individual lives were pre-planned and agreed upon in the pre-existence.  The op of this thread is an example of this given to us in scripture.  With this in mind – I would also suggest that it is quite possible that all things that happen to us in this life that are not the result of our choices or control are likely to have been pre-planned and agreed upon in the pre-existence – otherwise I cannot logically account for our Agency.

The next logical step is that we agreed to the choices that we face in this life.  With this as the case – I have speculated that G-d knew what we would choose in this life and that it was possible that this knowledge was given to us before we were born.  This may be a possible reason that a veil of forgetfulness separates us from pre-existence knowledge of this life.

Thanks @askandanswerfor your inquiry. 

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have suggested a number of times that there is a possibility that the events of individual lives were pre-planned and agreed upon in the pre-existence.  

I have similar views, based on Neal A Maxwell's teachings about a "customised curriculum" but I suspect that my views are not as well developed as yours, and I'm not sure if I take the concept as far as you seem to.

[Just_A_Guy]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

Yes, and this applies even if they are not healed in this life.  See, e.g., 2 Cor 12:7-10.

[Jersey Boy]

22 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

John 11: 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the ^aglory of God, that the Son of God might be ^bglorified thereby.

 John 9: 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this ^aman, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the ^aworks of God should be made ^bmanifest in him.

 

My understanding of John 9:2 is that in response to a question about whether a man’s affliction was a result of his, or his parent’s sin, Jesus said neither, and that this man was afflicted with blindness so that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

My understanding of John 11:4 is that Jesus explained that the reason for a man’s death was so that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

Although at times it may not appear to be so, due to man’s limited understanding, the fact is that God never does a single thing, ever, that isn’t for the benefit and salvation of his children.

23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness.

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he Loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw ALL men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. (2 Nephi 26)

[zil2]

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I have similar views, based on Neal A Maxwell's teachings about a "customised curriculum" but I suspect that my views are not as well developed as yours, and I'm not sure if I take the concept as far as you seem to.

I think that just as earthly institutions have curricula designed by teachers (not by the students who are woefully ignorant and unqualified to design their own curriculum), ours, while surely designed (to the extent necessary) for the individual, are designed by God.  I just can't get on board with the idea that I helped plan every little detail of my mortal life - it seems irrational to me, and unnecessary.  I don't believe for a second that it was, is, or will be necessary in order for my agency to function.  In fact, it sounds downright contrary to my agency functioning.  I also believe that the details of my life could have been different in a nearly infinite number of ways and still have taught me the same lessons I needed to learn in order, eventually, to be able to make that final, educated-by-experience choice between good and evil.

If I turn out to be wrong, and immortal me saw and approved every second of my mortal existence, well, OK, whatever.  But I may well slap her silly and say, "What the devil were you thinking!?"

[MarySQ]

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I think that just as earthly institutions have curricula designed by teachers (not by the students who are woefully ignorant and unqualified to design their own curriculum), ours, while surely designed (to the extent necessary) for the individual, are designed by God.  I just can't get on board with the idea that I helped plan every little detail of my mortal life - it seems irrational to me, and unnecessary.  I don't believe for a second that it was, is, or will be necessary in order for my agency to function.  In fact, it sounds downright contrary to my agency functioning.  I also believe that the details of my life could have been different in a nearly infinite number of ways and still have taught me the same lessons I needed to learn in order, eventually, to be able to make that final, educated-by-experience choice between good and evil.

If I turn out to be wrong, and immortal me saw and approved every second of my mortal existence, well, OK, whatever.  But I may well slap her silly and say, "What the devil were you thinking!?"

It's understandable that you may have reservations about the idea that you played a role in planning every detail of your mortal life. However, it's important to keep in mind that this belief is rooted in religious and spiritual concepts, and different individuals may have varying beliefs about predestination, free will, and agency.

From a theological perspective, some people believe that God has a plan for everyone's life and that we play a role in co-creating our destiny through our thoughts, beliefs, and actions. This does not necessarily mean that every little detail is predetermined, but rather that there is a larger purpose or meaning to our existence that we are striving to fulfill.

On the other hand, there are those who believe that we have complete free will and that our lives are entirely of our own making. They may see the idea of predestination as limiting our agency and potential for growth.

Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what resonates with you on a personal level. Whether you believe that you co-created your life with a higher power or that you are solely responsible for your experiences and choices, what matters most is how you choose to use your agency and live your life to the fullest.

[Traveler]

53 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I think that just as earthly institutions have curricula designed by teachers (not by the students who are woefully ignorant and unqualified to design their own curriculum), ours, while surely designed (to the extent necessary) for the individual, are designed by God.  I just can't get on board with the idea that I helped plan every little detail of my mortal life - it seems irrational to me, and unnecessary.  I don't believe for a second that it was, is, or will be necessary in order for my agency to function.  In fact, it sounds downright contrary to my agency functioning.  I also believe that the details of my life could have been different in a nearly infinite number of ways and still have taught me the same lessons I needed to learn in order, eventually, to be able to make that final, educated-by-experience choice between good and evil.

If I turn out to be wrong, and immortal me saw and approved every second of my mortal existence, well, OK, whatever.  But I may well slap her silly and say, "What the devil were you thinking!?"

Greetings:  I do not think that the vernacular of being correct or wrong is what ought to fuel the engines of discovery – rather what it is that can be contributed and eventually learned.    We have in scripture figures stepping forwards (at least with Christ) saying that they would volunteer to participate. 

I also think that we have evidence within the restored church in these last days.  We are given callings but we are not forced to accept – in essence we volunteer.   Then when we are called we will decide what things we concentrate on doing or how we will solve problems or bring about accomplishments.  Of course, most will pray and petition our G-d for guidance but we are told that we are not to be commanded in all things but to be anxiously engaged by our own free will (Agency) to accomplish good.  But this extends beyond just ourselves and our callings but to also give our support and sustain others in their callings, their volunteering and their willingness to be anxiously engaged by their own free will (Agency) to accomplish what they believe to be something good.  The core being that the individual exercise their will (Agency) to do what they determine – whether that will be self-centered or intended to serve that which is greater than self.

But I also believe that there is another factor.  In science, intelligence is defined by the ability to learn and change behavior to bring about different results.    What I have not been able to determine is that point of balance that we should seek in this mortal life of uncertainty between what we require for ourselves and what we will sacrifice for what we think G-d would have us do (or what we believe to be a greater intelligence).

Sometimes I think mortal life is in essence the Star Trek, Kobayashi Maru.  We are matched to a no possible win scenario in which we will inevitably fail and require rescue beyond ourselves and everything we know, think or can do.  And that part of the most advanced and intelligence civilization of this universe were not willing to accept such a failure as a challenge to discover of ourselves.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Kobayashi Maru.

Who doesn't love Star Trek?

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

We are given callings but we are not forced to accept – in essence we volunteer. 

Yep.  For example, when I was called to be RS President several years ago, I knew before anyone told me that this was the calling they would extend, I accepted it voluntarily, but I had no idea, absolutely no idea, what I was in for.  Zippo.  None.  Despite having briefly been a counselor in a previous RSP and despite having spent decades in RS.  (So, this proves my point better than what I perceive your point to be - and yes, my perception of your point may be wrong.)

Another example of my point:

Quote

Ether 3:11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

The brother of Jared doesn't know what words the Lord will speak next, and yet the Lord asks him, "Do you already believe what I'm about to say, despite not knowing what I'm about to say?"  And when the brother of Jared expresses that belief and trust, then the Lord shows him all things - after.  Faith precedes the miracle.  Etc.  I simply don't believe the Lord gives us a detailed preview.  He asks us to believe in him, despite not knowing what's coming.  I have no idea how much preview of our mortal lives we had, but I think it was more along these lines: "Do you trust Me to design your mortality?" - than the lines you seem to have said many times: "Let's pre-design your mortality together."

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Who doesn't love Star Trek?

My wife.

Yes, this is the cross I have to bear for marrying the most perfect woman on earth.

[askandanswer]

48 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I simply don't believe the Lord gives us a detailed preview.  He asks us to believe in him, despite not knowing what's coming.  I have no idea how much preview of our mortal lives we had, but I think it was more along these lines: "Do you trust Me to design your mortality?" - than the lines you seem to have said many times: "Let's pre-design your mortality together."

This incident was preceded by Ether 2:25, where the Lord basically said to the brother of Jared, what would you like me to do in response to this problem you have? Despite the brother's presumed lack of knowledge and experience about this particular method of creating light in a dark situation, he presented a solution and the Lord went along with it.

[zil2]

8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This incident was preceded by Ether 2:25, where the Lord basically said to the brother of Jared, what would you like me to do in response to this problem you have? Despite the brother's presumed lack of knowledge and experience about this particular method of creating light in a dark situation, he presented a solution and the Lord went along with it.

Well, if you want to go over the whole story, it demonstrates all the ways in which the Lord deals with us: in one instance, the Lord gives him the solution before MM knows the problem; in another, the Lord waits for MM to discover the problem and tells him how to deal with it; in another, the Lord tells MM all the ways that won't work and says, "So, how would you like me to help you with this one?"  And we could probably find other ways.  But in none of the scenarios did they sit down and plan every detail of everything coming up before MM took his first step.

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

Yep.  For example, when I was called to be RS President several years ago, I knew before anyone told me that this was the calling they would extend, I accepted it voluntarily, but I had no idea, absolutely no idea, what I was in for.  Zippo.  None.  Despite having briefly been a counselor in a previous RSP and despite having spent decades in RS.  (So, this proves my point better than what I perceive your point to be - and yes, my perception of your point may be wrong.)

Another example of my point:

The brother of Jared doesn't know what words the Lord will speak next, and yet the Lord asks him, "Do you already believe what I'm about to say, despite not knowing what I'm about to say?"  And when the brother of Jared expresses that belief and trust, then the Lord shows him all things - after.  Faith precedes the miracle.  Etc.  I simply don't believe the Lord gives us a detailed preview.  He asks us to believe in him, despite not knowing what's coming.  I have no idea how much preview of our mortal lives we had, but I think it was more along these lines: "Do you trust Me to design your mortality?" - than the lines you seem to have said many times: "Let's pre-design your mortality together."

I very much agree.  Most of the time I have premonitions.  I did however, miss completely where I would serve my mission.  I had strong premonitions about combat and is in part why I volunteered but I have never been in combat.  Marriage and children were the biggest surprise for me – and yet I am impressed that such was worked out long before I met my wife here on earth.  What is so interesting to me is all that had to happen for us to meet.  It is kind of like all that had to happen to the earth in the solar system in order to support life.  If we had met under any other conditions we would not have married.

Have you ever experience deja vu?

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

52 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Have you ever experience deja vu?

Not in any meaningful or memorable way, no.

52 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Marriage and children were the biggest surprise for me – and yet I am impressed that such was worked out long before I met my wife here on earth.  What is so interesting to me is all that had to happen for us to meet.  It is kind of like all that had to happen to the earth in the solar system in order to support life.  If we had met under any other conditions we would not have married.

Since you did not experience "any other conditions", how can you be so certain what would have happened under "any other conditions"?  (If the answer involves your inability to imagine any other scenario, your lack of imagination isn't enough evidence for me. )

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Have you ever experience deja vu?

Whoa. Weird. Didn't you just ask me that?

[Anddenex]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:19 AM, askandanswer said:

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

I'm more inclined to believe, accept, and have faith in the "general" understanding that afflictions are provided so that God and his Son, Jesus Christ are glorified. I love this example with the blind man and the apostle's question to the Lord. There are a lot of lessons wrapped in one verse.

I'm more inclined to accept the general idea that afflictions will result due to having mortal bodies. As a result of having mortal bodies, the possibilities of mutations, that some of us would be born blind, deaf, lame, etc... I can't see any individual saying and agreeing with the Lord, "Yes, when I'm 3 years old I agree, and want to be diagnosed with cancer, and then die at age 6." We can hypothesis all the unfortunate scenarios and horrendous scenarios in this life. Tyrants is another good example. "Yes, I want to and agree to becoming a tyrant. I accept and agree to that I will raise an army, create mass murder, and then end my own life." What person, who would have been trained and tutored by a God think this would be OK and agree to it.

I'm more inclined, to see God's foreknowledge, as a way in providing a means -- to escape -- and a way out if we use our agency wisely. I'm more inclined to accept that God didn't make the person blind, but that the plan provided a mortal weak body which could result (and does result) in mutations. Those mutations -- in general -- are a means to glorify God and would glorify God through miracles. Very similar to what happened on my mission. I don't believe there was some predestined result in the man who was healed, but I do believe our mortal bodies created an opportunity for God to be glorified in him and through his priesthood.

Just as we all have the agency, every circumstance can be an opportunity to glorify God or to reject him. I am fond of Nephi's words, "nevertheless, the Lord did suffer it that he might show forth his power, unto the fulfilling of his word which he had spoken concerning the wicked." The Lord suffers many forms of afflictions so that his power can be shown forth such that he might be glorified, and in many cases his promises fulfilled.

[CV75]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:19 PM, askandanswer said:

 

John 11: 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the ^aglory of God, that the Son of God might be ^bglorified thereby.

 John 9: 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this ^aman, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the ^aworks of God should be made ^bmanifest in him.

 

My understanding of John 9:2 is that in response to a question about whether a man’s affliction was a result of his, or his parent’s sin, Jesus said neither, and that this man was afflicted with blindness so that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

My understanding of John 11:4 is that Jesus explained that the reason for a man’s death was so that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Can these two incidents – a man being born blind and another man dying -  and the reasons given for them, be interpreted to mean that God gives afflictions to His children so that He might be glorified and His works advanced?

I think in general, the fallen world and its conditions are essential to the plan of happiness for the "work and glory" to be fulfilled, and that each individual's suffering is swallowed up in Christ according to His timing. Whether the Lord "gives" specific challenges to specific individuals at specific times might well be the case, and sometimes these are addressed in patriarchal blessings, but the specific rules are not known to us ("my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."). I believe that suffering caused by randomness and chaos in the fallen world is also swallowed up in Christ, and this may be reflected in His immediate intervention to prevent and rescue us from accidents, etc. but may also be addressed later according to our capacity and His will. I think He knows what is going on with each of us all the time.

Edited March 22, 2023 by CV75

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, zil2 said:

Not in any meaningful or memorable way, no.

Since you did not experience "any other conditions", how can you be so certain what would have happened under "any other conditions"?  (If the answer involves your inability to imagine any other scenario, your lack of imagination isn't enough evidence for me. )

I will give you some idea.  The military misplaced my order for Vietnam allowing me to stay at school (I had to take out a student deferment to avoid being drafted), a class at school I had taken was mixed up forcing me to stay in school an extra semester that was later admitted as a mistake, my employment was held (never happened before) while the mixed-up class was settled.  My now wife landed a job requiring a college degree (she was a sophomore) for the summer that allowed her to attend school for my last semester.  She had been attending Ricks and got an unexpected transfer to BYU. A cancelation the last minute allowed her to be in an apartment in my BYU ward and my BYU bishop (not knowing all the details) informed me that the L-rd had a hand in our meeting (which he said he rarely is so impressed).  I have had several incidents over the years confirming our finding each other.  What I have provided is hardly even the tip of such iceberg.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

my BYU bishop (not knowing all the details) informed me that the L-rd had a hand in our meeting

This is the only bit of your list that holds any water for me.  Every other place there is to go with this discussion is pointless as either pure speculation and pointing out what proves or fails to prove what, or as pointing out that some things ought not to be spoken.  I've written and deleted half a dozen responses, so I'm gonna follow TFP's example and give up.  This just has nowhere to go.

[SilentOne]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:21 AM, zil2 said:

I just can't get on board with the idea that I helped plan every little detail of my mortal life - it seems irrational to me, and unnecessary.  I don't believe for a second that it was, is, or will be necessary in order for my agency to function.  In fact, it sounds downright contrary to my agency functioning.

I think it also sounds contrary to everybody else's agency functioning. Everyone's choices affect a lot of other lives, so there has to be a lot of fluidity in the plan. Some details can be made to turn out as planned, but every one?

Edited March 23, 2023 by SilentOne

[The Folk Prophet]

19 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm gonna follow TFP's example and give up. 

The problem is that Traveler is working with a different definition/view of what agency means. He has this convoluted, manufactured, over-complicated view of the matter, but then tries communicating it without even bothering to acknowledge that he's doing this. I don't think it's intentional on his part...but it causes a great deal of confusion.

Agency seems to be a principle that people struggle with. (There are a few other principles that have the same problem). I don't know why. It seems like a simple principle to me. But it's one that seems to be constantly misunderstood. Of course most people, in my view, misunderstand it by over-simplifying it. But then, every so often, you have people that over-complicate it. It seems like there are certain people who tend to overcomplicate everything.