Matthew 13 (JST 39-44)


zil2
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So, yesterday I was reading the Come, Follow Me lesson, and read Matthew 13.  In the footnotes, I noted the JST verses:

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JST Matthew 13:39-44
39 The harvest is the end of the world, or the destruction of the wicked.

40 The reapers are the angels, or the messengers sent of heaven.

41 As, therefore, the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world, or the destruction of the wicked.

42 For in that day, before the Son of man shall come, he shall send forth his angels and messengers of heaven.

43 And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked; and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

44 For the world shall be burned with fire.

Now, I'm sure we've all read the various interpretations of the "wheat & tares" parable.  But this time through, this bit of the JST really caught my eye, especially verses 42-43.  I'm wondering if anyone else sees there what I see, which is something I don't think I've ever heard explicitly mentioned.  I don't want to prime the pump, so I'll reply later with my thoughts (was going to use a spoiler block, but that's not an option here).  Would appreciate your thoughts.

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Well, after three hours lying awake in bed, I've given up on sleep, so I may as well add my thoughts, which are the long-winded version of what @mikbone wrote.

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JST Matthew 13:39-44
39 The harvest is the end of the world, or the destruction of the wicked.

40 The reapers are the angels, or the messengers sent of heaven.

41 As, therefore, the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world, or the destruction of the wicked.

42 For in that day, before the Son of man shall come, he shall send forth his angels and messengers of heaven.

43 And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked; and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

44 For the world shall be burned with fire.

Verse 39 sets the time - the end of the world, so just before the Millennium.

Verse 40 sets the actors "angels or messengers sent of heaven" - I would note that this could be prophets and apostles, resurrected beings, righteous spirits, whoever, but those on the Lord's errand, with authority.

Verse 42 gets more specific about timing - before the Lord himself comes (presumably for all to see, in his glory, though that's my presumption).

Verse 43 is the what the actors will be doing, and this is the interesting bit - they will "gather out of his kingdom" - clearly, the "Kingdom of God" - which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (as opposed to the Kingdom of Heaven).  And what will they gather?

  • "all things that offend" - false traditions, beliefs, teachings, or practices that have entered the Church (my interpretation)
  • "them which do iniquity" - I perceive this to mean those who aren't even trying to keep their covenants - whether through indifference, or willful rebellion, or by choosing to be "deceived".  I think it includes those who are hiding in the Church, pretending to be the faithful but who actively want to destroy the Church; and those who have been deceived into believing the world's philosophies and are trying "in good faith" (believing they're right) to convince other members to come over to their way of thinking; and those who just can't be bothered with actually keeping their covenants.

And these will be cast out of the Kingdom of God on Earth (the Church) into the world (among the wicked who do not claim membership).  Whether that's literal (e.g. excommunication) or figurative (not sure how that will work, but whatever), they will be out, and they will be wailing and gnashing their teeth over how unfair we are, how they've been wronged, and perhaps about how unpleasant life is outside the Church and in the world.

And then after they have been cast out of the Church, out from among gathered Israel, then the wicked (aka world) will be destroyed.

I don't recall ever hearing about the extra step of casting workers of iniquity out of the Church.  Not that it's surprising or anything, of course it would happen - whether by their own choice or by "force" - it's just not something I ever noticed before.  And I suppose I'm noticing it now because it's so easy to imagine, given everything going on in the world today.

(For the record, this does not encourage me to judge my neighbor, but rather to make sure I'm not a worker of iniquity, and that I haven't embraced anything that offends, lest I trail along after it's cast out.)

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3 hours ago, zil2 said:

For the record, this does not encourage me to judge my neighbor, but rather to make sure I'm not a worker of iniquity, and that I haven't embraced anything that offends, lest I trail along after it's cast out.)

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https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/lord-is-it-i?lang=eng

The scientific study that Elder Uchtdorf quoted is one of my favorite all time documents.  Unfortunately, I encountered the study 5 years after Elder Uchtdorf gave the talk…  And I  know I watched it live - as the dandelion story was, at the time, more impressive.

Also, while watching The Chosen, I was really impressed how the Lord seemed to constantly and immediately negatively reinforce his disciples whenever they became proud.

He obviously had conditioned them during His ministry.  So much so, that the 11 disciples really questioned their loyalty and faithfulness. 

Matthew 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

My wife does a great job of negatively reinforcing me whenever I start waxing proud.

Edited by mikbone
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4 hours ago, zil2 said:

Well, after three hours lying awake in bed, I've given up on sleep, so I may as well add my thoughts, which are the long-winded version of what @mikbone wrote.

Verse 39 sets the time - the end of the world, so just before the Millennium.

Verse 40 sets the actors "angels or messengers sent of heaven" - I would note that this could be prophets and apostles, resurrected beings, righteous spirits, whoever, but those on the Lord's errand, with authority.

Verse 42 gets more specific about timing - before the Lord himself comes (presumably for all to see, in his glory, though that's my presumption).

Verse 43 is the what the actors will be doing, and this is the interesting bit - they will "gather out of his kingdom" - clearly, the "Kingdom of God" - which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (as opposed to the Kingdom of Heaven).  And what will they gather?

  • "all things that offend" - false traditions, beliefs, teachings, or practices that have entered the Church (my interpretation)
  • "them which do iniquity" - I perceive this to mean those who aren't even trying to keep their covenants - whether through indifference, or willful rebellion, or by choosing to be "deceived".  I think it includes those who are hiding in the Church, pretending to be the faithful but who actively want to destroy the Church; and those who have been deceived into believing the world's philosophies and are trying "in good faith" (believing they're right) to convince other members to come over to their way of thinking; and those who just can't be bothered with actually keeping their covenants.

And these will be cast out of the Kingdom of God on Earth (the Church) into the world (among the wicked who do not claim membership).  Whether that's literal (e.g. excommunication) or figurative (not sure how that will work, but whatever), they will be out, and they will be wailing and gnashing their teeth over how unfair we are, how they've been wronged, and perhaps about how unpleasant life is outside the Church and in the world.

And then after they have been cast out of the Church, out from among gathered Israel, then the wicked (aka world) will be destroyed.

I don't recall ever hearing about the extra step of casting workers of iniquity out of the Church.  Not that it's surprising or anything, of course it would happen - whether by their own choice or by "force" - it's just not something I ever noticed before.  And I suppose I'm noticing it now because it's so easy to imagine, given everything going on in the world today.

(For the record, this does not encourage me to judge my neighbor, but rather to make sure I'm not a worker of iniquity, and that I haven't embraced anything that offends, lest I trail along after it's cast out.)

The JST makes sense given the fact that the tares initially had the appearance of wheat. That clearly cannot be the world as we know it. It also makes sense that the Lord would give a parable directed at those who might actually read it. 

I do like how you point out the part about "all things that offend." While most of us probably wouldn't associate ourselves with the tares, I imagine there are things in our lives that would fall under the category of offensive. Surely the Lord won't expect a reception from already perfected saints but hopefully we won't be as Lot's wife either, looking back with longing on the world.

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6 hours ago, zil2 said:

Verse 39 sets the time - the end of the world, so just before the Millennium.

Verse 40 sets the actors "angels or messengers sent of heaven" - I would note that this could be prophets and apostles, resurrected beings, righteous spirits, whoever, but those on the Lord's errand, with authority.

Verse 42 gets more specific about timing - before the Lord himself comes (presumably for all to see, in his glory, though that's my presumption).

With ya so far.

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

Verse 43 is the what the actors will be doing, and this is the interesting bit - they will "gather out of his kingdom" - clearly, the "Kingdom of God" - which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (as opposed to the Kingdom of Heaven).  And what will they gather?

Yes and no.  Begin with v.24 "The Kingdom of Heaven" is likened unto... not just "a man", but rather the entire parable. 

  • I don't see where anyone said "Kingdom of God" in this chapter.
  • The scriptures often use both, but they are used completely interchangeably.  I haven't heard any truly persuasive arguments otherwise.

The Kingdom of Heaven is the rulership.  And God has dominion over all the earth.  The Church is in many ways considered his kingdom on earth.  But what is a kingdom?  It is the land, the people, the laws, the social order, and... the dominion. 

  • That last one is more than just the Church.  It is the whole earth.
  • Then the "field" in v. 24 is defined in v.38 to be "the world."  So, the "Land" of the Kingdom is the world.
  • The Law of God is eternal and is over all men.  So, the law is over the whole earth.
  • The social order is the one thing missing.  This is what "offends."
6 hours ago, zil2 said:
  • "all things that offend" - false traditions, beliefs, teachings, or practices that have entered the Church (my interpretation)
  • "them which do iniquity" - I perceive this to mean those who aren't even trying to keep their covenants - whether through indifference, or willful rebellion, or by choosing to be "deceived".  I think it includes those who are hiding in the Church, pretending to be the faithful but who actively want to destroy the Church; and those who have been deceived into believing the world's philosophies and are trying "in good faith" (believing they're right) to convince other members to come over to their way of thinking; and those who just can't be bothered with actually keeping their covenants.

These are certainly included.  But it is not exactly restricted to the membership of the Church.  Those who will be preserved will include people of other faiths who can abide the Terrestrial Law.  And I'm not just talking about the burning.  I'm addressing the focus of your post which was v.43(JST).

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And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked; and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

We remember from "Ye Elders of Israel" that we will gather the wheat from the midst of the tares.  Check out the scripture references.

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2 Hearken, O ye who have given your names to go forth to proclaim my gospel, and to prune my vineyard.
3 Behold, I say unto you that it is my will that you should go forth and not tarry, neither be idle but labor with your might—
4 Lifting up your voices as with the sound of a trump, proclaiming the truth according to the revelations and commandments which I have given you.
5 And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many sheaves, and crowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life.

 -- D&C 75:2-5

7 Yea, verily I say unto you again, the time has come when the voice of the Lord is unto you: Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
8 Send forth the elders of my church unto the nations which are afar off; unto the islands of the sea; send forth unto foreign lands; call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews.
9 And behold, and lo, this shall be their cry, and the voice of the Lord unto all people: Go ye forth unto the land of Zion, that the borders of my people may be enlarged, and that her stakes may be strengthened, and that Zion may go forth unto the regions round about.

14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.

 -- D&C 133:7-9, 14

This has been happening since the Restoration.  The events of D&C 45 are things to look forward to.  It sums up a lot of the prophecies of the Bible pretty well.

I'd ask you to consider 133 v. 5 & v. 7.  "Go ye out from Babylon."  This is not "go ye out into Babylon" to gather.  It is telling us to get out of Babylon.  i.e. We're currently in Babylon.  What does that say to you?  What it says to me is that we need to remember that the Latter-day Saints are also guilty of worldliness -- just a different type.  

If we are to properly gather, we need to rid ourselves of all ungodliness.  Have we done that?  I know I haven't.  But I'm trying.  Why do I bring this up?

Well, it is very easy (and dare I say, "smug") of us as conservatives (many on this board are) to say that we're staying away from the LGBTQ movement and from tyranny, theft, and unholy practices.  But I have a very conservative cousin who decided to leave the Church because they're requiring missionaries to get vaccines and because her bishop is asking people to mask up (even in Texas -- She lives in Dallas).  As far as I knew she was a very strong member of the Church with a strong testimony, yadda yadda.  But she decided that she knew better than the prophet.  So, her testimony of Jesus Christ, the BoM, and the Church are sound, but not enough to handle a prophet with whom she disagrees?  I know many more liberal people who completely disagree with the Prophet, but still remain in the Church (to become exactly that type of "tare" you described).

People will separate themselves.  Others have to be forced out.  Eventually, the Saints need to be one or we are not His.

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14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If we are to properly gather, we need to rid ourselves of all ungodliness.

Maybe what you mean is something different than what I'm taking this to mean, but as it's written.... then there can be no proper gathering then, because we cannot rid ourselves of "all" ungodliness. It comes across as if you're saying that God cannot do His work unless we're perfect. That's clearly not true.

 

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Yes and no.  Begin with v.24 "The Kingdom of Heaven" is likened unto... not just "a man", but rather the entire parable. 

  • I don't see where anyone said "Kingdom of God" in this chapter.
  • The scriptures often use both, but they are used completely interchangeably.  I haven't heard any truly persuasive arguments otherwise.

I don't recall ever having read in scripture where the Church of Christ is called "the kingdom of heaven", though this might be my own prejudice—if, when Christ said "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto...", he actually meant "My Church is likened unto...", then obviously I am wrong. But for my readings, I see "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" as separate though closely related entities. Little children are "of the kingdom of heaven", yet are explicitly forbidden from entering the covenant of baptism, which covenant puts them in the kingdom of God.

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51 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe what you mean is something different than what I'm taking this to mean,

Apparently so.

51 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

but as it's written.... then there can be no proper gathering then, because we cannot rid ourselves of "all" ungodliness. It comes across as if you're saying that God cannot do His work unless we're perfect. That's clearly not true.

Then tell me what you think Moroni is saying.

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Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

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26 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't recall ever having read in scripture where the Church of Christ is called "the kingdom of heaven",

Joseph Fielding Smith 

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We announce that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, the only place where men may come to learn the true doctrines of salvation and find the authority of the holy priesthood.

 -- Out of Darkness Ensign June 1971

 

Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven

See also Celestial Glory; Church of Jesus Christ

The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on the earth, but it is at present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the Millennium, the kingdom of God will be both political and ecclesiastical.

 -- Guide to the Scriptures

However, the reference to D&C 65 is interesting.  That section seems to make a slight distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.  But I tend to believe this is a contextual difference only, not a universal one. (i.e. in scriptures, they tend to be used interchangeably for the majority of the occurrences of the titles).

"Kingdom of Heaven" is the "Kingdom of God" in the Celestial World.  The "Church" is the "Kingdom of God" on earth.  But they are the same overall Kingdom.  But to make the points He makes in this revelation, He draws a distinction for this context.  And, yes, there could be other contexts where such a distinction is necessary to make a point.  But it's all the same kingdom.

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13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Then tell me what you think Moroni is saying.

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Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Well...nothing about gathering.

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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Kingdom of Heaven" is the "Kingdom of God" in the Celestial World.  The "Church" is the "Kingdom of God" on earth.  But they are the same overall Kingdom.

I agree with this distinction. The point is, there is a distinction.

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9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well...nothing about gathering.

Let's stick a pin in that for a moment.

Look at the exchange thus far:

  • My statement: in order to do X, we need to deny ourselves of all ungodliness.
  • Your response: We cannot deny ourselves of all ungodliness because that means we have to be perfect, which we cannot do. 
    • Therefore X is impossible under that requirement.
  • I pointed to Moroni who tells us that the grace of Christ is only sufficient for us if we deny ourselves of all ungodliness.
    • Then, by Moroni's statement, we cannot obtain the Grace of Christ.

If, instead, "denying ourselves of all ungodliness" means something different (let's suppose, for discussion purposes, a figure of speech for a less absolute condition) then we can achieve it.

Thus we come back to the discussion about the gathering.  If we can achieve that condition, then we can achieve the gathering.

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10 minutes ago, Vort said:

I agree with this distinction. The point is, there is a distinction.

As I said, there is a distinction when there is an obvious distinction as written.  But the great majority of the time in scriptures, those two phrases are used interchangeably.

Back to the topic at hand: The question then becomes, Does this reference necessitate that distinction to be invoked?  I'd be open to arguments as to why this context implies that distinction vs the generic.  And I'll point out that the phrase used here was indeed "Kingdom of Heaven."  But when the word "Kingdom" is invoked, the interpretation is somehow linked to Kingdom of God?

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11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

As I said, there is a distinction when there is an obvious distinction as written.  But the great majority of the time in scriptures, those two phrases are used interchangeably.

Back to the topic at hand: The question then becomes, Does this reference necessitate that distinction to be invoked?  I'd be open to arguments as to why this context implies that distinction vs the generic.  And I'll point out that the phrase used here was indeed "Kingdom of Heaven."  But when the word "Kingdom" is invoked, the interpretation is somehow linked to Kingdom of God?

I was narrowly focused on the wording, and wrote to that particular end. Stepping back and reading the scriptures under discussion, I concede that you are clearly correct. When Jesus said "the kingdom of heaven", in this particular case he must surely have meant "the kingdom of God", that is, "my [Christ's] Church".

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Yes and no. ...

See also v49, footnote b, where the JST says of "the world": "And the world is the children of the wicked."  ("The world" is "people" not a place, in revelations like this.)

Yes, as I said in the OP, I'm well aware of the sequence specified by modern revelation.  What I see is another detail in the sequence.

Yes, we can say that all things are God's, all things are under his dominion, and therefore his kingdom is everything, everyone, everywhere, and everywhen.  But scriptures are pretty consistent that there's God's Kingdom on Earth, God's Kingdom in Heaven, and "the world" (aka, the wicked).

Yes, I'm aware that the "end of the world" will leave alive many who are not members of the Church. That's not relevant to this - it doesn't address them specifically either way.

My focus is where verse 43 - of the JST - says:

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43 And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked;

There are two groups of wicked: 1. those in his kingdom which do iniquity, and 2) the wicked who are out (of the kingdom, to what else else could "out" refer?).  We're not just talking about one set of wicked, all of whom will be destroyed.  We're talking about two groups who will be merged before destruction.

If we coupled this with footnote 30b (JST): "first the wheat into my barn; and the tares are bound in bundles to be burned", I would say there's an intermediate step, or that the first step has two parts:

Option A: "Gather the wheat into the barn, then cast out any tares that managed to get through, then bind all the tares and burn."

Option B: "As part of the gathering of the wheat into the barn, toss aside any tare you happen to pluck up, and once all the wheat is in the barn, bind the tares and burn."

I suppose if you wanted to, you could interpret this as "out" being "outer darkness" or "spirit prison" - but the wording seems otherwise to me.

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D&C 86: 7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.

 

I love this.  Why do the work twice.  Just gather the wheat.  When you do - all you have left is one big bundle of tares.

Hope I get gathered…

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President Joseph Fielding Smith pointed out that “even in the Church the tares are to be found. It is the tares which are to be gathered up and burned from all over the world, but those in the Church will also be gathered out and find their place in the fire. [See D&C 112:23–26.] The Savior also bore witness of [this. When] speaking to the Nephites he said: ‘For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from my people, O house of Israel.’ (3 Nephi 21:20.)” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:354.)

from:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-86-the-parable-of-the-wheat-and-the-tares?lang=eng

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11 minutes ago, mikbone said:

D&C 112:23–26

Well, there you go.  I have be taught this before and it just flew on by. (Link to D&C 112:21-29)

Verses 25 & 26:

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25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

So, the cleansing will start in the Church, and move out from there.  And, from the footnotes: 1 Peter 4:17-18.

Anywho, I've always just thought of this as a single event where the wicked are destroyed prior to the Millennium.  To me, these verses are saying that it will start with cleansing the Church, and then the rest of the world.

Thank you, @mikbone for finding that reference!

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Let's stick a pin in that for a moment.

Look at the exchange thus far:

  • My statement: in order to do X, we need to deny ourselves of all ungodliness.
  • Your response: We cannot deny ourselves of all ungodliness because that means we have to be perfect, which we cannot do. 
    • Therefore X is impossible under that requirement.
  • I pointed to Moroni who tells us that the grace of Christ is only sufficient for us if we deny ourselves of all ungodliness.
    • Then, by Moroni's statement, we cannot obtain the Grace of Christ.

If, instead, "denying ourselves of all ungodliness" means something different (let's suppose, for discussion purposes, a figure of speech for a less absolute condition) then we can achieve it.

Thus we come back to the discussion about the gathering.  If we can achieve that condition, then we can achieve the gathering.

My point is only that God can and does do His work despite our weaknesses. That fallen, mortal individuals bring about the gathering, despite being fallen and mortal.

I don't know if I agree that denying ourselves of all ungodliness is a figure of speech, or "be ye therefore perfect". But it's a reasonable take, and a way to describe the same thing in a different way I think.

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@Carborendum, I've been thinking on this and why I even responded in the first place the way I did. I thought of a question to ask you that might clarify what I'm thinking a bit and maybe help communicate what I'm getting at. This may not be contrary to anything you're saying, but by expressing it in this question maybe you'll see where I'm coming from and why I even responded:

Let's say someone spent the previous evening viewing pornography and then, having not yet repented in any regard, bore testimony of the gospel to someone else. Do you believe that in that situation that the person hearing said testimony could not or would not ever feel the Spirit confirming the truth of the testimony to them (and...accordingly...be led to be "gathered")? (Say said individual was a Counselor in a bishopric, and had been assigned, in conducting, to bear testimony at the start of a fast and testimony meeting. This is something that almost certainly has happened in reality.)

I'm making the example moderately extreme on purpose. I could inject a lesser or more grievous sin and the question would remain though, I think. And I'm not suggesting an answer, per se. I have some thoughts and inclinations. But I'm legitimately curious what you (and others) think on the matter.

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36 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Let's say someone spent the previous evening viewing pornography and then, having not yet repented in any regard, bore testimony of the gospel to someone else. Do you believe that in that situation that the person hearing said testimony could not or would not ever feel the Spirit confirming the truth of the testimony to them (and...accordingly...be led to be "gathered")? (Say said individual was a Counselor in a bishopric, and had been assigned, in conducting, to bear testimony at the start of a fast and testimony meeting. This is something that almost certainly has happened in reality.)

I still ponder things like that all the time.  And I don't have a final answer.

But I absolutely believe:

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He that receiveth the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is taught by the Spirit of truth.

I also believe that it is entirely possible that the one "teaching" does not necessarily have to be the mortal vessel who carries the message.

Overall, as it relates to the topic: It is entirely possible that the standards that we tend to think are necessary to become the instruments in the Lord's hands, are quite different than what the Lord actually requires.

Example 1:  I first learned what it was like to feel the priesthood on my mission.  It was at a particularly spiritual high when I was really focused on the work and I swear I could feel the Spirit with me 24/7.  This lasted about a month or two?  I gave a blessing to a child in a hospital.  And I knew it had power.  I then knew what it felt like.

Example 2:  I once blessed my daughter and felt the power go through me.  But it was at a time that I wasn't really being a good boy.  In fact, it was at a time of a crisis of faith.  I was considering leaving the Church.  But because I loved my daughter so much, I thought I should try for her sake.  And she was healed.

Example 3:  I gave a blessing to my wife and felt absolutely nothing.  Yet, I had been behaving in line with gospel principles.  I figured I'd been pretty obedient (as such things go) for a while.  Nothing was stressing me.  But there was nothing.

Maybe... maybe, it isn't really about what we normally think about as righteousness.  As long as we stay away from the REALLY big things, maybe the rest of it is not as important as we think.  What if the only real things we need are humility and faith.  Maybe we don't behave quite right, but because we're humble about it by being in the process of denying ourselves of ungodliness, and having faith in the power of the Lord, that is the real qualification.

We have the old axioms:

  • It doesn't matter where we are on the path.  It matters which direction we're headed.
  • The difference between the righteous and the wicked is not that the righteous don't sin, but that they keep repenting. 

"Repenting" sure sounds like "being in the process of denying ourselves of all ungodliness."

And somehow certain individuals other than the Savior have been called "perfect men".  Adam, Enoch, Job, Abraham... I can't remember the others.  But I believe there were a couple more that were so pronounced.  Obviously, they were not as perfect as the Savior, nor were they "perfect" in the sense of "Be ye therefore perfect."  But it is interesting that this same word is used to denote such men.

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33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Repenting" sure sounds like "being in the process of denying ourselves of all ungodliness."

This fits my view nicely.

I know it's back to semantics, as are a lot of things, but I just don't think the Lord "requires" men to do His work -- except that in His work is men...so in that regard it requires men. But hopefully you get my point. If no man is righteous enough to convert others, God will send angels. Or appear Himself. Or., or., or. He will do His work whether you and I are worthy or not.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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