D&C 138:59


laronius
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59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

 

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13 minutes ago, laronius said:

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

This scripture, to me, correlates with the doctrine specifying "all" are saved in and through Christ, except for the sons of perdition (who receive outer darkness).  All three kingdoms are kingdoms of salvation (although they vary in degree, freedom, and glory).

This is one teaching/doctrine that highlights why the atonement is important in covering our sins -- making us perfect in him. There is no period of time in "darkness" for those who are alive in Christ. We are immediately received.

Even though they repent and have paid the price of the penalty of their transgression they are not received in fullness of glory. They are though received into a kingdom of glory which is giving only through Christ. Without Christ, there would be no "washed clean" we would all be in outer darkness. The Atonement still provides this cleansing.

If the Savior completely paid (those who are alive in Christ) then we would all be with the Father in his kingdom of glory (Celestial). They are not "perfected" in Christ, but they are cleansed and because of that cleansing they are able to be received into a kingdom of glory according to their works and heart.

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23 minutes ago, laronius said:

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

My answer is that "paying the penalty of their transgressions" means paying the penalty of not receiving Christ's atoning blood for some time, the penalty of which is eternal damnation. At some point, almost all will gladly receive the Savior's atonement, at which point they will be washed clean. There is no other way to become clean. You can't "pay the price" of your transgression in the sense of becoming one with the Father by paying off the eternal debt of your own sin. That is anti-doctrinal.

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D&C 19: 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

 

Best repent during this life. 

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Many revelations in the D&C represent Joseph Smith’s attempt to frame the will of God into a Voice of God, first-person declaratory statement,  but they are still “after the manner of [his] language” (D&C 1:24) and Joseph always considered them subject to further refinement/editing.

D&C 138 doesn’t even presume to use God’s direct voice; rather, President Joseph F. Smith is using his own perspective to try to interpret for the reader the vision that he was able to experience.  His account is naturally going to be filtered at minimum by his vocabulary, and probably to some degree by his worldview.  I think most Saints in any age would recognize that humankind is incapable of paying for their own sins to any degree; that salvation and redemption from sin comes only in and through the merits of Jesus Christ as part of a covenant relationship in which we consecrate ourselves to Him.  At the same time, early LDS discourse (and indeed, scripture generally) is full of statements about punishment, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, the wrath of God suffered by the impenitent in the spirit world until they are purged of their sins, etc. That was just the rhetorical/linguistic water President Smith swam in; and we don’t need to be too worried if it shows up in his written accounts of the revelations he received.

The scriptures are canon, but they are not a legal code in which one word always means the same single thing and in which a particular concept is always conveyed through one (and only one) specific word or phrase.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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No individual scripture stands alone.  No individual correctly understood/interpreted scripture contradicts any other correctly understood/interpreted scriptures.  But we often have a problem correctly understanding/interpreting scripture.

The scriptures are clear that only Christ paid for sin in the redemptive sense of paid.  The scriptures are also clear that we will all pay for sin in the suffering sense of paid until and unless we exercise faith in Christ, repent and are cleansed by the power of Christ's atonement.

Note that this Section and verse is not given to novices in the gospel, but rather to those that should already have a firm grasp of the basics.  The section goes from the Paid for our Sins in the suffering sense to the being Clean step.  The fact that it omits steps we all should already have a firm understanding of should not be taken they don't exist, but rather that is is not repeating things we should already know.

Edited by estradling75
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I remember going to a youth conference and hearing a story that never sat well with me.

A young lady was going to be married and she had picked out a nice wedding dress but before her wedding she had got into an accident and caught the dress on a nail tearing it and suffering an abrasion which bled on the dress making it both broken and dirty.

She didn't have the means nor the skill to repair the dress and when she washed the dress the blood could not be completely removed.  It was stained for life.  

The councilor would then relate about how a master taylor could mend the dress back into its original state and expertly clean the dress so that there were no more stains.

The dress represents the young lady’s soul.  Her distress and attempts at mending / cleaning represent the repentance process.  And the Savior’s Atonement represented the master taylor.

 

Its a terrible story.  One, the insinuation is of sexual infidelity.

Two, Christ’s Atonement isn’t like a master taylor and a special dry cleaner.

Christ just makes a new dress, much higher quality and better fit than the original.

 

Taylor = Tailor

Edited by mikbone
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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Many revelations in the D&C represent Joseph Smith’s attempt to frame the will of God into a Voice of God, first-person declaratory statement,  but they are still “after the manner of [his] language” (D&C 1:24) and Joseph always considered them subject to further refinement/editing.

D&C 138 doesn’t even presume to use God’s direct voice; rather, President Joseph F. Smith is using his own perspective to try to interpret for the reader the vision that he was able to experience.  His account is naturally going to be filtered at minimum by his vocabulary, and probably to some degree by his worldview.  I think most Saints in any age would recognize that humankind is incapable of paying for their own sins to any degree; that salvation and redemption from sin comes only in and through the merits of Jesus Christ as part of a covenant relationship in which we consecrate ourselves to Him.  At the same time, early LDS discourse (and indeed, scripture generally) is full of statements about punishment, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, the wrath of God suffered by the impenitent in the spirit world until they are purged of their sins, etc. That was just the rhetorical/linguistic water President Smith swam in; and we don’t need to be too worried if it shows up in his written accounts of the revelations he received.

The scriptures are canon, but they are not a legal code in which one word always means the same single thing and in which a particular concept is always conveyed through one (and only one) specific word or phrase.

I get what you are saying but I don't think we ought to immediately jump to the conclusion that something cannot be exactly as it appears just because it appears on the surface to not jive with other doctrines. There may yet be hidden facets that we just haven't considered. But I do agree with you that we also must not allow an overly detailed focus to distort the general doctrine being taught.

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4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

No individual scripture stands alone.  No individual correctly understood/interpreted scripture contradicts any other correctly understood/interpreted scriptures.  But we often have a problem correctly understanding/interpreting scripture.

The scriptures are clear that only Christ paid for sin in the redemptive sense of paid.  The scriptures are also clear that we will all pay for sin in the suffering sense of paid until and unless we exercise faith in Christ, repent and are cleansed by the power of Christ's atonement.

Note that this Section and verse is not given to novices in the gospel, but rather to those that should already have a firm grasp of the basics.  The section goes from the Paid for our Sins in the suffering sense to the being Clean step.  The fact that it omits steps we all should already have a firm understanding of should not be taken they don't exist, but rather that is is not repeating things we should already know.

I think you make a good distinction between suffering because of sin and suffering for sin. 

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14 hours ago, laronius said:

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

 

I think the penalty they (the dead who repent, v. 58) pay is a delayed resurrection and any restitution required of them during that delay as they obey the temple ordinances. But the reward according to their works – which is being washed clean according to their works -- is reflected in any kingdom of glory they are willing to receive, from the least to the greatest.

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On 3/26/2023 at 6:51 PM, laronius said:

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

The question to ask is "what is the penalty"?  Here's my common analogy.  See if this answers your question.

  • A man fails to abide by the warnings that he is wandering into treacherous ground.  He ends up falling into a deep pit.
  • Because of the conditions of this pit, there is no way he can get out of the pit on his own.
  • As the man calls for help, a rescuer sees his predicament.
  • The rescuer gets a ladder and drops it down to him.
  • The man then has to climb up the ladder.

The "penalty" is that

  • He was stuck in a pit for a time.
  • They had to ask for help (from the right source).
  • He had to expend energy to climb up the ladder.

Is it reasonable to say that by being stuck in the pit or climbing the ladder he somehow "earned" the right to be free from the pit?  That doesn't make any sense.

Did he have to work to get out of the pit?  Yes, by first calling for help, then by climbing up the ladder.  But are either of those things a reason to say he "deserved" to get out of the pit?  Of course not.  The reason he got out of the pit is because a rescuer was there to offer him a way out.  I could say that "the guy in the pit had nothing to do with it."  But that wouldn't really be accurate.  What we can say is that there would be no way for him to get out of the pit without the rescuer.

So, understand that there is a "big picture" vs "specifics" that may be spoken of in different ways.  And different or similar words may be used while discussing each aspect in its own sphere.

Edited by Carborendum
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I do not think of myself as an expert in sin nor repentance.  I have grappled with the concept of repentance and becoming clean.  Mostly I have difficulty thinking I am clean because of repentance – I am unable to arrive at that conclusion.  I am inclined to think – perhaps through hope and faith, that repentance is a process of learning – much more than achieving.  It seems to me that I discover sins of things I once thought were not sins and likewise things I thought were sinful that really are not – at least not that I should define as sins – especially in others.  Sometimes I wonder if why we do something is more important than what we do.

I am somewhat of the mind that there are “things” I will discover in the next condition of my sole, beyond death, that needs better understanding before I am prepared to stand before G-d confident that I am clean.  I believe it possible to repent and become clean, mostly I hope such is the case.  I am impressed with how many on the forum seem to have figured it all out.  I wish I could speak to my sole with such confidence.   I do not know what the rest of you plan but for me: My plan is that when I meet Christ – that I tearfully fall before him (as best or as much as I possibly can) and beg for forgiveness and mercy.  It is also my plan to plea for mercy and forgiveness of those that have offended me – mostly because I have this idea that forgiving others will be of benefit to me and I am for any benefit -- I do not want to rely on chance.

I have a hope that even the worse of anyone I have ever encountered will shine as an example to me of how Christ can make someone (especially someone I think worse than me) clean and pure.  Such would give me much confidence that I too can be cleansed.

 

The Traveler

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17 hours ago, Vort said:

You can't "pay the price" of your transgression in the sense of becoming one with the Father by paying off the eternal debt of your own sin. That is anti-doctrinal.

I know D&C 19 kinda throws a wrench in your anti-doctrinal stance.  But I think there is a work around.

And 

D&C 19: 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

is a very interesting statement…

When we consider people like King David.

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And recognize that he essentially ordered the assassination of Uriah and his entire platoon.  We have to balance that with the understanding that he also did some amazing things and was a great prophet (even Christ came through his bloodline).

There are some members of the CoJCoLDS including GAs that think there is the possibility of transition from kingdom to kingdom in the afterlife.

Telestial -> Terrestrial -> Celestial.

I think in the above circumstances paying for ones own sins becomes an option.

Edited by mikbone
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18 minutes ago, mikbone said:
17 hours ago, Vort said:

You can't "pay the price" of your transgression in the sense of becoming one with the Father by paying off the eternal debt of your own sin. That is anti-doctrinal.

I know D&C 19 kinda throws a wrench in your anti-doctrinal stance

I think it does not. I'm not married to my current interpretation, but it's the only interpretation that seems consistent to me and makes sense of our major doctrines. I see no other reasonable possibilities, certainly not that we can atone for our own sins by suffering a sufficient amount. If that were the case, Christ's atoning sacrifice would have been unnecessary.

19 minutes ago, mikbone said:

But I think there is a work around.

And 

D&C 19: 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

is a very interesting statement…

I fully believe the above-referenced verse of scripture, but I find it curious that God would tell it to us. Seems somewhat self-defeating. But in any case, this is not a case of God's holy lie. God does not lie. Rather, this is a case of God using our own language to teach eternal principles that our fallen ears cannot otherwise hear. The damnation is eternal in quality, if not duration. Alma suffered such damnation, and even after his redemption apparently could not think about or mention it without shuddering.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I see no other reasonable possibilities, certainly not that we can atone for our own sins by suffering a sufficient amount. If that were the case, Christ's atoning sacrifice would have been unnecessary.

Jesus Christ's Atonement does more than just allow us to overcome sin.  Without it, we would have all been subject to the Devil in outer darkness, without the possibility for resurrection.  

I feel uncomfortable assigning King David a Kingdom.  Eventually Uriah, his platoon and Bathsheeba will forgive King David.

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3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Jesus Christ's Atonement does more than just allow us to overcome sin.  Without it, we would have all been subject to the Devil in outer darkness, without the possibility for resurrection. 

"[Being] subject to the Devil in outer darkness" is practically the definition of spiritual death. We are redeemed from spiritual death only through Christ's atonement. As Alma and others teach, spiritual death is to be in the clutches of sin, and salvation means purification from sin. The atonement of Christ is our only hope for becoming sinless, without which we are subject to Satan. So goes my understanding.

I concede that resurrection is also a part of the atonement of Jesus Christ, and it appears that resurrection is not tightly coupled with salvation. But I don't think this fact really erases the underlying truth of my statement, except perhaps in a picky technical sense. The idea that we can become clean through the virtue of our own suffering means that we can be saved (i.e. become sinless) without Christ's atonement. This I do not believe.

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On 3/26/2023 at 7:51 PM, laronius said:

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

My question is if a person pays for their own sins of what are they washed clean from? Is their having paid the penalty different than the Savior paying for their sins making a cleansing still necessary?

 

The scriptures make it clear that it’s impossible for fallen mortals to atone for their own sins through suffering. The only way sin can be be properly atoned for, in order to fully satisfy the infinite and eternal demands of divine justice, is through an atoning sacrifice for sin made by an infinite and eternal being, and that being is God. It’s folly to imagine it’s possible for wicked, fallen men to have the power to make an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for their own sins.

The purpose of suffering in hell for those destined for the telestial kingdom is to humble them through suffering until their hearts are fully broken and their spirits are rendered fully contrite, and this that they might finally be able to exercise living faith in Christ, sincerely repent of their sins, receive divine pardon for their sins, and at last receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost being that member of the Godhead who ministers to the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory.

The penalty spoken of is finally paid when the penitents have suffered enough to enable them to understand that they are utterly dependent on the Savior and need to advantage themselves of his atoning sacrifice if they are ever going to be able to escape what would otherwise be an endless punishment in hell. Suffering for personal sin actually is endless unless and until the sufferer exercises living faith in Christ unto true repentance that allows the burden to be lifted.

In order to gain a proper understanding of Doctrine and Covenants 138:59, it’s essential to read and correctly understand the verses that immediately precede verse 59. With this correct understanding it becomes clear that the washing referred to in verse 59 is the saving ordinance of baptism. With this comes the realization that the Savior really did speak the truth when he testified that only those who believe in him AND ARE BAPTIZED can be saved.

The answer you are looking for is found in the very same Section of the Doctrine and Covenants (138) that prompted your question…

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ORDINANCES  of the house of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

The “ordinances of the house of God” referred to in verse 58 are the same referred to in verse 33:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These (I.e. the wicked who rejected the gospel message taught by prophets while they were in the body on earth) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

Edited by Jersey Boy
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I appreciate all of the comments made and perspectives shared. I think this quote by Joseph Smith from the King Follett discourse is very insightful:

"So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved, although if he has been guilty of great sins he will be punished for them; but when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved. . . . All will suffer until they obey Christ himself."

I especially like that phrase "abide without salvation" as it pertains to the idea of "suffering."

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/26/2023 at 7:51 PM, laronius said:

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

"The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a
reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation".

True to the Faith says "Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in
spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be
resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85)
"

Based on that definition, the telestials are not redeemed by repentance or accepting the gospel but rather
by suffering.  This suffering is also mentioned in Kingdoms of Glory and Perdition.
 

In verse 58, what ordinances of the house of God must they be obedient to after they have repented?

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On 3/28/2023 at 1:37 PM, laronius said:

I especially like that phrase "abide without salvation" as it pertains to the idea of "suffering."

Those in paradise are saved in the kingdom of God (D&C 138:51-52) but I don't know what labors they
continue to perform after they are resurrected.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, 
to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, And continue
thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which
were held in reserve for them that love him
".

Lesson 8 says

"According to Lehi, what makes salvation possible in God's plan? (Students should identify the
following: We can be saved only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You might
share the following definition of what it means to be saved or to receive salvation: "Salvation in its
true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an
inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions
this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak
"

In that sense, all the others abide without salvation.  They suffer because they will never live with
Heavenly Father.

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13 hours ago, romans8 said:

Those in paradise are saved in the kingdom of God (D&C 138:51-52) but I don't know what labors they
continue to perform after they are resurrected.

"These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, 
to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, And continue
thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which
were held in reserve for them that love him
".

Lesson 8 says

"According to Lehi, what makes salvation possible in God's plan? (Students should identify the
following: We can be saved only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You might
share the following definition of what it means to be saved or to receive salvation: "Salvation in its
true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an
inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions
this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak
"

In that sense, all the others abide without salvation.  They suffer because they will never live with
Heavenly Father.

Perhaps a little off topic but not completely. First of all, the labors mentioned pertain to the idea that progression continues in the next life. The command is to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven. It's obviously not something that can be accomplished in this life, but in the eternities that is the expectation. Exactly how we go about that we can only speculate. But we definitely do NOT just sit around singing God's praises for eternity. He works to bring salvation to His children and we, his children, will labor to do the exact same thing.

Next, the term salvation (or being saved) can be used as a synonym for exaltation (a fullness of salvation) or it can be used to describe a lesser degree of exaltation, as in the following:

D&C 132:17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

All but the sons of perdition receive salvation, to one degree or another.

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15 hours ago, romans8 said:

"The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a
reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation".

True to the Faith says "Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in
spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be
resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85)
"

Based on that definition, the telestials are not redeemed by repentance or accepting the gospel but rather
by suffering.  This suffering is also mentioned in Kingdoms of Glory and Perdition.
 

In verse 58, what ordinances of the house of God must they be obedient to after they have repented?

That quote, though not coming from a definitive source, definitely does represent one side of the argument. Though that scripture it references says they will be redeemed, so I'm not sure how they derived that interpretation from that scripture.

The ordinances of the temple refer to covenants made with God to live the gospel and keep His commandments. To be heirs of the Celestial Kingdom one be willing to live the fullness of the gospel. Those unwilling to live the fullness will receive a degree of glory equivalent to that which they are willing to live. The ordinances of the temple are performed on their behalf here in this world and they have the opportunity to accept those covenants in the spirit world.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/9/2023 at 1:47 AM, laronius said:

Next, the term salvation (or being saved) can be used as a synonym for exaltation (a fullness of salvation) or it can be used to describe a lesser degree of exaltation, as in the following:

D&C 132:17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Does "a lesser degree of exaltation" = "without exaltation"?

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On 4/9/2023 at 9:24 AM, laronius said:

The ordinances of the temple are performed on their behalf here in this world and they have the opportunity to accept those covenants in the spirit world.

What about those who reject the gospel like the Plan of Salvation says of the terrestrial inhabitants?

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