Will the Statue Moroni on Top of Temples be Replaced with Jesus?


clbent04
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Two questions really.

1.) Will the gold-plated statue of the angel Moroni on top of many LDS temples be replaced with a statue of the Savior considering the Church’s recent logo change to the Christus statue?

2.) Even with the explanations I’ve heard of why the LDS Church has gold plated statues of the angel Moroni on top of its temples, doesn’t it seem odd that it’s a statue of anyone else besides Jesus? It can be interpreted as vain idolatry by people outside the LDS Church who don’t understand the faith or culture and might also cause the confusion where some people accuse the Church as being non-Christian. 

 

Edited by clbent04
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  • clbent04 changed the title to Will the Statue Moroni on Top of Temples be Replaced with Jesus?
1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Two questions really.

1.) Will the gold-plated statue of the angel Moroni on top of many LDS temples be replaced with a statue of the Savior considering the Church’s recent logo change to the Christus statue?

2.) Even with the explanations I’ve heard of why the LDS Church has gold plated statues of the angel Moroni on top of its temples, doesn’t it seem odd that it’s a statue of anyone else besides Jesus? It can be interpreted as vain idolatry by people outside the LDS Church who don’t understand the faith or culture and might also cause the confusion where some people accuse the Church as being non-Christian. 

 

1) I doubt it.  We all know we don’t pray to, or do anything that smacks of worshipping, Moroni; whereas we *do* worship Christ (or, to be pedantic, we worship the Father in the name of Christ whom we revere as Creator, Lord and Savior).  These things are perhaps squishy by nature; but it *feels* like erecting a statue of someone who is actually the object of our devotion crosses a sort of cultural line about idolatry.

2)   Until very recently, nearly all the people outside the LDS Church who knew we existed at all were either a) Catholics and Orthodox Christians, who have no problem with statues in a devotional context; or b) Protestants, who frown on statues of anyone in a devotional context.  Replacing statues of Moroni with statues of Christ isn’t going to win us any friends in the Christian world.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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33 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

it *feels* like erecting a statue of someone who is actually the object of our devotion crosses a sort of cultural line about idolatry.

While any object including statues of the Savior could be used for idolatrous purposes, in my mind we are closer to avoiding idolatry if the statues we use actually represent the very thing we should be worshiping instead of a man with an account in the Book of Mormon.

33 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 Replacing statues of Moroni with statues of Christ isn’t going to win us any friends in the Christian world.  

The objective in the restoration of the Church has never been about appealing to other religions. I look at it more from the perspective of considering what updates or revisions would God want for His church that are yet to come since we know the Church functions as a living organism always being fine tuned. Even with revelation no man truly knows nor can know the entire mind of God. 

Edited by clbent04
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15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The objective in the restoration of the Church has never been about appealing to other religions. I look at it more from the perspective of considering what updates or revisions would God want for His church that are yet to come since we know the Church functions as a living organism always being fine tuned. Even with revelation no man truly knows nor can know the entire mind of God. 

Agreed.  I would just note that “what updates or revisions would God want for His Church” can include revisions that react (or anticipate) the effect we have in our broader society and/or the way society reacts to us.

I would venture to guess that in the end the Lord doesn’t care all that much, in the abstract, about whether we put a golden statue of Him on every temple, or every chapel, or every street corner.  But I suspect He is at least *somewhat* interested in the ways we reach out to others in order to facilitate good will and create opportunities to share our message . . . or unnecessarily slam the door shut on such opportunities through our own obstinate tone-deafness.  🙂

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The Church generally isn't worried about what others think UNLESS a change will result in spreading the gospel faster. I remember 30 or so years ago when the Church started adding steeples to existing church buildings because they found that many did not even realize our churches were churches. So if it helps then sure. So we must ask ourselves whether it would make a difference?

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It is my opinion that the depiction of the angel Moroni was an inspired and wonderful logo for the church. I believe those who think changing to the Christus as the logo means that something wrong was corrected are mistaken. The change to use Christ as the logo had a purpose, but that doesn't mean the angel Moroni as a logo was a mistake, uninspired, wrong, or otherwise flawed.

I love the angel Moroni depictions.

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10 hours ago, laronius said:

The Church generally isn't worried about what others think UNLESS a change will result in spreading the gospel faster

I’m not sure about that. The church cares deeply about it’s reputation, and they should. That’s why they have a PR staff and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, one reason the missionaries can’t dye their hair green and wear spiked nose rings is because the church cares about their image. 
 

75% of the time the phrase “I don’t care what others think.” has a different meaning. It usually means “I’m very lonely and have alienated everyone close to me so I’ll pretend I don’t care because it makes me feel better”

 

No, seriously. I’ve never seen a happy, friendly person who has a great life say that. It’s usually abrasive, angry people who say that. 

Edited by LDSGator
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5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:
10 hours ago, laronius said:

The Church generally isn't worried about what others think UNLESS a change will result in spreading the gospel faster

I’m not sure about that. The church cares deeply about it’s reputation, and they should. That’s why they have a PR staff and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

I think you're saying the same thing.

They church isn't looking for Satan to look positively upon them. But the church does care deeply about its reputation...but that's because the church's goal is to bring people unto Christ.

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3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you're saying the same thing.

They church isn't looking for Satan to look positively upon them. But the church does care deeply about its reputation...but that's because the church's goal is to bring people unto Christ.

Totally fair. 

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1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I’m always amazed by this. Even in 2023 so many people down here just give you a blank stare if you tell them you are LDS. 

I would say that I was a Latter-Day Saint Christian.  Something also good to say in my opinion is: "I am a member of Christ's restored Church."

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15 hours ago, clbent04 said:

1.) Will the gold-plated statue of the angel Moroni on top of many LDS temples be replaced with a statue of the Savior considering the Church’s recent logo change to the Christus statue?

Well, the temple is the house of the Lord, and when I come home to my house, I don't want a statue of me hearalding my own return to my house.  I'd rather have a... hmm... 

[goes off and considers what kind of statue or pomp I want to experience whenever I come home]

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, the temple is the house of the Lord, and when I come home to my house, I don't want a statue of me hearalding my own return to my house.  I'd rather have a... hmm... 

I’d totally have my own statue in my front yard. Doing some awesome jump turning roundhouse kick. 
 

If anyone knows any sculptors, PM me. I’ll pay with exposure-all 150 of my FB friends will see your work! 😉 

Edited by LDSGator
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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, the temple is the house of the Lord, and when I come home to my house, I don't want a statue of me hearalding my own return to my house.  I'd rather have a... hmm... 

[goes off and considers what kind of statue or pomp I want to experience whenever I come home]

I think God would want the statue to be whatever was most effective in turning our thoughts towards Him.

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6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I’d totally have my own statue in my front yard. Doing some awesome jump turning roundhouse kick. 
 

If anyone knows any sculptors, PM me. I’ll pay with exposure-all 150 of my FB friends will see your work! 😉 

If you remember what @NeuroTypical has shared about statue construction process, there’ll be more exposure than you bargained for.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

If you remember what @NeuroTypical has shared about statue construction process, there’ll be more exposure than you bargained for.

Yay!  Someone remembers my story!  (Here it is, if anyone's interested: https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/58841-filthy-lucre/page/10/#comment-856160 )

I could call around and see if Brother Quilter is still alive, I guess.  @LDSGator, you up for some nude modeling?

 

 

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On 4/9/2023 at 7:40 PM, clbent04 said:

It can be interpreted as vain idolatry...

Is it vain idolatry for many Christians throughout the world to have an angel on the top of a Christmas tree? Is it vain idolatry to use the remnants of a Pagan holiday as decorative center of the celebration of the birth of Christ?

Do Americans participate in vain idolatry when we use currency with the graven images of various presidents and other Founding Fathers?  How about Mt. Rushmore?  That's a pretty dang big idol.  Ask any Jew.  They'd prefer that Mt. Rushmore and pretty much every statue in the country be taken down.

The bottom line is that the Lord does what He does on His own timeline and for His own reasons, no one else's.

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25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Is it vain idolatry for many Christians throughout the world to have an angel on the top of a Christmas tree? Is it vain idolatry to use the remnants of a Pagan holiday as decorative center of the celebration of the birth of Christ?

Do Americans participate in vain idolatry when we use currency with the graven images of various presidents and other Founding Fathers?  How about Mt. Rushmore?  That's a pretty dang big idol.  Ask any Jew.  They'd prefer that Mt. Rushmore and pretty much every statue in the country be taken down.

The bottom line is that the Lord does what He does on His own timeline and for His own reasons, no one else's.

Long time no see, Mr. Zero-Carb Emissions. The question is was it truly the Lord's wishes to begin with to have gold-plated angel Moronis set atop temples as the crowning decorative piece? Or are you suggesting church leaders perfectly interpret revelation given to them by God every time in the exact way God wants it to be received?

Edited by clbent04
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18 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Long time no see Mr. Zero-Carb Emissions. The question is was it truly the Lord's wishes to begin with to have gold-plated angel Moroni's set atop temples as the crowning decorative piece? Or are you suggesting church leaders perfectly interpret revelation given to them by God every time in the exact way God wants it to be received?

An interesting history: (take this story to be worthy of all the effort I put into verifying it -- which wasn't very much).

In the 1800s (and earlier) angels were placed on pinnacles of various buildings throughout the United States as a weather vane.  An early image of the original Nauvoo temple had a horizontal "flying" angel with wings.  It was not meant to be religious.  It was simply decorative -- a common American decoration on all sorts of buildings.

In the final construction, wings were removed.  At the time, it was not considered to be Moroni.  It was simply "the angel of the restoration."  And it is often depicted in images as facing west, not east.  To me this makes more sense doctrinally.

Once the Saints began building temples in Utah, the angels faced east.  At some point people associated Moroni with the "angel of the restoration" because... of course he was.

So, not a lot of revelation involved in the decorative icon that has come to symbolize our temples.

Brigham Young said that he prayed for guidance in the fulfilment of his duties.  And if he does anything wrong, then he asks that the Lord make it clear that he needs to fix something.

That's the level of revelation in some more mundane decisions like this.

Edited by Carborendum
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On 4/9/2023 at 9:05 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

or unnecessarily slam the door shut on such opportunities through our own obstinate tone-deafness.  🙂

Re-reading some of this thread and this popped out to me because of some thoughts I was having (independently of the thread) the other night. First I'd have to say.... who's including in "our" in such a statement? I've often wondered about this when people make statements about "we" or "our" or the like. What percentage of the church has to believe, agree, or see something a certain way before it becomes "our". And when it comes to something like the way temples are built...does "our" point of view even come into it. Or if the prophet is being "tone deaf" do we all get counted in with such statements? And if, for example, you or me or @clbent04 or whoever has a differing view because they, individual aren't "tone deaf" does it matter? I mean if @clbent04's view is right but those in charge remain "tone deaf" and keep putting up the false idol Moroni atop the temples, don't the doors of opportunity remain shut despite the few, or even the many's revelatory sensitivity? In other words...what's the point of opinions even being expressed in this thread or the argument even being made? (Yes, I'm saying this thread is a waste of time... that being said..... it's sort of mostly what we do here....)

Okay...all of that wasn't the thought I had independently. Here it is. A bit of a threadjack maybe, but as arguing whether the angel Moroni statues should or should not be on temples is so very pointless that, I dunno.... But here's the thought:

Specifically it's in response to the idea of "slam the door shut".  And, basically, I don't think that's possible.

This is the question that came to mind. Can we damn our own children? And the answer is, explicitly, plainly, clearly, and absolutely, no.*

We cannot damn others. It cannot be done.

Maybe the idea won't lead anywhere and no discussion will open up from it. And maybe it should have been a new thread. But it is, in my opinion, a thought actually worthy of exploration. And it can, and does, in some ways tie into the topic at hand.

*Edit: I don't know why I write this way sometimes. Why did I feel the need to use 3 adjectives that mean the same thing in a row? 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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