A General Authority Will Be Visiting Me This Saturday at My House


clbent04
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Last Sunday I met up with one of the counselors in my home ward bishopric. He's a good person and I enjoy his company. We talked about some of our life interests and questions I had about Church doctrine and practices and theology in general.

For transparency purposes, I told him at the beginning of our visit that at this point in my life I consider myself to be a non-denominational Christian who practices his faith within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do this because I grew up in the Church, I'm familiar with it, and there's a lot of things in the Church I agree with.

I also told him I'm on the fence about whether I should stay in the Church or find another that aligns more closely to how I believe such as a non-denominational or Protestant Christian church.

We had a good discussion, and as we were headed out he mentioned how they were looking for members who might be interested in receiving a visit from a General Authority this Saturday. I was excited about the prospect and readily agreed.

The Stake Presidency reached out to me this morning and we got the visit scheduled. I want to make the most of this upcoming visit so I wanted to vet some of my thoughts here to get to the crux of why I haven't been able to fully embrace LDS beliefs.

Here's my personal list of pros / cons regarding on why I'm on the fence about whether I should stay in the Church:

Pros

  • Centered on Jesus Christ and the two greatest commandments
  • I'm familiar with the Church and know what to expect
  • The Church helps produce good people. Some of the people I respect most in this life are members
  • I've had some wonderful spiritual experiences within the Church
  • Observing the integrity and morality of current Church leadership suggests to me that the vine from the inception of the Restored Church must have been good
  • No proven systematic corruption in the Church strongly supports my belief that good, inspired leaders are at the helm
  • The organization of the Church from its leadership to how it manages its affairs
  • Efforts within the Church are almost exclusively volunteer based; no paid clergy
  • Most Church members are given opportunities to not just spectate but participate
  • The Church's living, breathing nature and how its continuously being fine tuned

Cons

  • The statement of "the one and only true Church" is not comprehensive enough to be compatible with my life observations of how God works within the world. Not only do I believe God and the Holy Spirit are present among other faiths, I believe many to be equally inspired by God as is the LDS Church
  • I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired
  • Temple ordinances don't make sense to me in relation to what the Bible teaches us
  • The three Kingdoms of Glory don't make sense to me and how an 80-year mortal existence would eternally slot any of us into one of the three
  • Polygamy being introduced for a temporary period only to be retracted and put on hold until after this life doesn't make sense to me. Apologists explain the Church had to stop practicing polygamy because the US government would have shut it down otherwise. Since when is a government more powerful than God? And where in the Bible has God ever retracted an eternal principle of truth? And no, comparing this to the Law of Moses is not apples to apples
  • THE TEMPLE STATUES OF THE ANGEL MORONI!! Lol. All caps added more for levity than me being that serious about it mattering that much to me, although I do stand behind my thoughts with what I posted in my other thread about the angel Moroni statues
  • In the end, when we are all asleep [dead] waiting for the resurrection/judgment, when we finally see for ourselves how God and the Heavens are, I think we will all be amazed by His majesty, glory, mercy, understanding and love towards us. Whereas some of us were overly focused on getting to the Celestial Kingdom by participating in regular temple attendance, my belief is God will thoroughly look into our hearts and uncover what truly matters for our salvation, our love and faith for Him and His son Jesus Christ. It will be a wonderful reunion with all our brothers and sisters from all walks of life where many of our assumptions and judgments in this life will be melted away by God's love for us, and we will all see each other for who we are, and forgive as we are forgiven.
Edited by clbent04
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12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This is the only thing on your list that has any meaning as to staying in the church or not.

I was going to say something similar. A testimony of the truthfulness of the Church as Jesus Christ's restored church can coexist with lots of unknowns and question marks. But this one is kinda key to that testimony. 

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@clbent04, thanks for sharing.  Please share how the meeting goes!

To echo others' comments, I'll often say that in the end, the only good reason to be LDS, is you figure God wants you to be one.  Absent that, it really doesn't matter how strong the pros, or how weak the cons, it's just like any other secular life choice on how to spend your time and maximize your life on earth.  If you can wrangle a testimony, it doesn't matter how weak the pros, or how strong the cons, you can walk firm in the knowledge that you're doing God's will.

(I obviously have my preferences, but I'm happy to hang out with 'ya either way, btw.)

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I appreciate those candid with their thoughts and trying to be extremely honest about things. I see a great deal of nuance in matters of belief, but in this case I see this in starkly black-and-white terms.

Pro

The Restored Church of Christ is exactly what it claims to be, the literal restoration of God's own kingdom on the earth through Priesthood power, manifested through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Con

The so-called Restored Church of Christ is no such thing. The so-called prophet Joseph Smith was a fraud and a conman, a randy ne'er-do-well who seduced foolish young women and convinced a bunch of gullible fools that he spoke for Jesus Christ.

Other than some minor mitigation of adjectives involved, the above two claims represent the only (and clearly mutually exclusive) possibilities. It is A or B, exactly one of the two. Nice sermons and happy lives may possibly be outgrowths of some good vine, but ultimately the above single choice completely covers the bases.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Here's my personal list of pros / cons regarding on why I'm on the fence about whether I should stay in the Church:

Pros

  • Centered on Jesus Christ and the two greatest commandments
  • I'm familiar with the Church and know what to expect
  • The Church helps produce good people. Some of the people I respect most in this life are members
  • I've had some wonderful spiritual experiences within the Church
  • Observing the integrity and morality of current Church leadership suggests to me that the vine from the inception of the Restored Church must have been good
  • No proven systematic corruption in the Church strongly supports my belief that good, inspired leaders are at the helm
  • The organization of the Church from its leadership to how it manages its affairs
  • Efforts within the Church are almost exclusively volunteer based; no paid clergy
  • Most Church members are given opportunities to not just spectate but participate
  • The Church's living, breathing nature and how its continuously being fine tuned

These are all fine. I would point out that many of the listed elements can be found in non-LDS congregations and belief systems.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Cons

  • The statement of "the one and only true Church" is not comprehensive enough to be compatible with my life observations of how God works within the world. Not only do I believe God and the Holy Spirit are present among other faiths, I believe many to be equally inspired by God as is the LDS Church

Yep. That's a problem. From the very beginning, the Prophet Joseph and other leaders in the kingdom have acknowledged the good and Godly among all sects and even non-Christian belief systems. But the uniqueness of the Church's status as the literal kingdom of God on earth is not something that can be minimized or hand-waved away.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired

I wish I had a convincing answer to give. You are not the first person I have heard give this report, and I don't know how to respond. My personal experiences are certainly far different in this thing than are yours—but  of course, my experiences do nothing for you. Moroni's promise is right there in the last chapter of the Book of Mormon, bold as day. Why some who seem perfectly sincere and strictly honest can seemingly complete the terms of that promise without receiving the promised testimony puzzles me and has for years. Perhaps the visiting General Authority can shed some light on this for you.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • Temple ordinances don't make sense to me in relation to what the Bible teaches us

As with the Book of Mormon, my experiences are exactly opposite of yours. I find the presentation of the endowment and the covenants therein to be a clear and persuasive representation of what the Bible teaches. But again, my experience helps no one but me.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • The three Kingdoms of Glory don't make sense to me and how an 80-year mortal existence would eternally slot any of us into one of the three

It is human nature to think that, having named something, we now understand it. "Now I understand why Grandpa was the way he was. He was on the autism spectrum, but no one understood it in his time. But now we do!" "Uncle Billy was considered an abusive jerk. If only they had understood the reality of alcohol addiction back then!" In merely naming a thing, we think that we have identified it. Grandpa was autistic; Billy was addicted to a substance. There we go! Now, having made those assignments, we finally have an understanding of what's going on!

We have not. In many cases, we don't know if the model is even a good, robust one, one that will hold up over years of use and observation. (Witness the previous example of autism, considered for some decades as a convincing explanation for a wide variety of personality traits but now being re-evaluated for its accuracy, a sledge hammer used indiscriminately to label different and perhaps unrelated conditions, and as to whether it is even a useful diagnosis at all.)

What is the nature of our premortal life? What did it look like? What did we do? What were our family relations with each other? What was involved in preparing us for this life? We know exactly none of these things—or if we do, we're under covenant to keep that knowledge to ourselves, because it certainly has not been publicly revealed. And without such knowledge, we are in no situation to judge how or even whether our mortal probation suffices to distinguish our eternal destiny.

To put it another way: Larger Christianity and the other so-called Abrahamic religions (primarily Judaism and Islam) teach of a place called "heaven" and another place called "hell". Our life conduct, or perhaps divine predestination, will relegate us to Heaven or Hell. Compared to that absurdly simplistic idea, the Latter-day Saint "three degrees of glory" sounds downright nuanced. Which was, I believe, the point of Section 76. It's a little bit of knowledge, a line and a precept given us as a morsel of spiritual food to grow with. It was never intended to be a complete explanation, but more like a peek into the future.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • Polygamy being introduced for a temporary period only to be retracted and put on hold until after this life doesn't make sense to me. Apologists explain the Church had to stop practicing polygamy because the US government would have shut it down otherwise. Since when is a government more powerful than God? And where in the Bible has God ever retracted an eternal principle of truth? And no, comparing this to the Law of Moses is not apples to apples

You are far from the first, and doubtless far from the last, to make this observation. But in the end, the true/false dichotomy I started this answer with applies. If the Restored Church of Christ is what it claims to be, then any squabbling about plural marriage being restored and then withdrawn becomes irrelevant. And of course, if the Restored Church is not what it claims to be, then the whole issue is irrelevant. In either case, "irrelevant" is the operative term.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • THE TEMPLE STATUES OF THE ANGEL MORONI!! Lol. All caps added more for levity than me being that serious about it mattering that much to me, although I do stand behind my thoughts with what I posted in my other thread about the angel Moroni statues

Same as the argument above, but times ten thousand. Angel statues on temple spires does not strike me as an issue of any importance. At all.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
  • In the end, when we are all asleep [dead] waiting for the resurrection/judgment, when we finally see for ourselves how God and the Heavens are, I think we will all be amazed by His majesty, glory, mercy, understanding and love towards us. Whereas some of us were overly focused on getting to the Celestial Kingdom by participating in regular temple attendance, my belief is God will thoroughly look into our hearts and uncover what truly matters for our salvation, our love and faith for Him and His son Jesus Christ. It will be a wonderful reunion with all our brothers and sisters from all walks of life where many of our assumptions and judgments in this life will be melted away by God's love for us, and we will all see each other for who we are, and forgive as we are forgiven.

True enough. And yet here we are. What are we to make of that? Clearly this life, this existence in mortality, matters, else why are we struggling through it? It's easy to dismiss our lives as unimportant and say that when we REALLY see what's going on, it will all make sense. Easy, but useless. Our mortal lives are not unimportant, at least not in the way we might think. And I suggest that whether or not we are ever, in all eternity, able to REALLY see what's going on will be determined precisely by how we develop our own spiritual traits throughout our existence, which obviously would include right now, in mortality.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Why some who seem perfectly sincere and strictly honest can seemingly complete the terms of that promise without receiving the promised testimony puzzles me and has for years.

I think you answered your own question here.

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7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Please explain it to me. I sincerely want to know. Not kidding.

Well I was trying to be funny a bit...but also serious.

I'll highlight the words that answer the question:

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Why some who seem perfectly sincere and strictly honest can seemingly complete the terms of that promise without receiving the promised testimony puzzles me and has for years.

And, yeah, I understand that my suggestion comes across as judgmental and holier-than-thou. It is judgmental, but not holier-than-thou. It's judgmental, but not of others. I don't know their experiences. It's judgmental of the truthfulness of God's word. I believe Him. He's made a promise. He'll keep it. Therefore, I trust the failure isn't on His part. Those claiming to have put the promise to the test either simply haven't or are denying/blind to the fulfilled promise.

I can't make any argument beyond my trust in God's promises to back this up. But it seems like in these cases that it's a matter of trusting the anecdotal claims of man or trusting God. I know which I choose. 

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Those claiming to have put the promise to the test either simply haven't or are denying/blind to the fulfilled promise.

I've encountered too many people in this circumstance who have not yet experienced the fulfilled promise and who keep trying despite this (for various reasons).  I believe the word simply is wrong.  I believe that there are cases of those who just don't understand (yet).  They haven't figured out how to be sincere or how to recognize the answer or some other how.  To their credit, they recognize that it's worth continuing the struggle.  For some, it just isn't simple.  They aren't intentionally being blind, but the usual lessons on how to see aren't working for them.

In high school, I had a friend in most of my classes (she was very smart, a fellow honors student).  In our trig and pre-calc class, she could not understand a significant percent of what the teacher was trying to teach.  But if I re-explained it, she could understand my way of putting it.  Fortunately, the teacher accepted this and didn't mind me turning around and repeating the lesson to my friend.  I think this is the case with many who struggle with The Sunday School Promises - whoever is explaining things to them isn't speaking their language.  They need to hear it in some other terms or experience some other insight, or something different from the norm.  I trust that eventually, everyone can experience the promised results, but for some of us, for whatever reason, it's harder, and I no longer believe that it's because they are willfully doing something wrong.  Maybe they're doing something wrong, but if so, it's in ignorance or confusion.

In such cases, I try to encourage them not to give up, that the struggle is worth it, that even without all the promised experiences, life is better continuing to try than giving up.  I also encourage trying to look at things from different angles, considering all the variables involved, asking what's missing, etc. etc.  Anything to keep them trying and help them to find whatever it is they specifically need to come to Christ.  But I don't tell them they're clearly not doing it right - just doesn't help.

Edited by zil2
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19 minutes ago, zil2 said:

But I don't tell them they're clearly not doing it right - just doesn't help.

FWIW, I will say from the perspective of someone on the fence about the Church, it's much more positive to have conversations with members who can sympathize how various viewpoints can exist in this world, and to not feel like someone is touting their sincerity and diligence in finding God's truth over your own.

That can be very frustrating and offensive.  This was one contributing factor that caused me to eventually lash out at @The Folk Prophet in the past and earn my permanent Scarlet Letter on Third Hour!

1566180337_warningpoint.jpg.653ad400db2b2503ad78ea7196b4477e.jpg

By the way, is this thing really permanent or does it ever go away?

But TFP and I are good now. After we hugged and made up, I can see the good in people like @The Folk Prophet who want to proudly hold up their banner of truth, and to some extent I see it as commendable even when it comes at the expense of stepping on the toes of those like me who have different life experiences and beliefs. 

I will say if the goal is to bring others unto Christ, and you believe the LDS Church to be the answer, a little sympathy and respectful communication goes a long ways. I've always tried to communicate respectfully on this forum with the exception of the few times I've been triggered by someone else's lack of respect for me or others.

I'm not really saying any of us this for my benefit and my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, just some honest perspective for what it's worth.

 

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10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

someone is touting their sincerity and diligence in finding God's truth over your own.

This is not what happened.

8 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

who want to proudly hold up their banner of truth,

Again, this is not what's happening or what I said. God's promise is God's promise. I have nothing to do with that banner of truth. God said what He said. That's all I'm saying. You put it on me as if it's me thinking I know something better than you do. It's not. It's simply where I place my faith. You place your faith where you place it too.

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

at the expense of stepping on the toes of those like me who have different life experiences and beliefs. 

Once again...it's not me stepping on your toes. It's God's promise. Not mine.

I'm doing nothing at anyone's expense. I trust in God. I have faith in God. That's all.

13 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I will say if the goal is to bring others unto Christ, and you believe the LDS Church to be the answer, a little sympathy and respectful communication goes a long ways.

I hope I am better at this than I have been. I have been and am trying. But I don't deserve the blame as if I'm insulting someone else for believing that God meant what He said. You are free to disagree, of course. You always have been. But you ought to stop putting it on me and those like me as if we're driving you away from the church for trusting in God. The scriptures say what they say. I believe them. If you feel a lack of sympathy and respect then your issues really out to be with the scriptures, not with those who believe in them.

15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm not really saying any of us this for my benefit and my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, just some honest perspective for what it's worth.

And...for what it's worth, I do understand. I understand the fact that it can feel patronizing. I even brought up with @Vort how I understand that it can come across as holier-than-thou. 

I don't know how to reconcile that other than to believe what I believe. I believe that if someone humbly goes to God with honest intent and true sincerity, having legitimately pondered upon the words of the Book of Mormon, and asks Him if it is true that he will manifest the truth of it to them through the power of the Holy Ghost. I believe that because He said it. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that if someone has done so, then the truth has been manifested. Therefore they either weren't willing to hear that manifestation, or they haven't done what's been asked of them. That is the only reasonable conclusion to draw if one believes that God made a promise and that God cannot lie. (A third option one could take, which I believe @Vort and the like take, is that they don't understand the promise. And I suppose that's fair. But I think the promise is simple and easily understood, so I, personally, don't opt for that view.)

Moreover, I don't believe that coddling false thinking is good. I accept I'm terrible at communication. But if I think someone hasn't done what needs to be done, it feels the best course to be 'helpful', to help them understand that reality.

Here's an example, if it's useful: Say you were trying to bake a cake and it kept falling. Whereas I understand that it might make you feel better, and keep trying, to not have a master chef tell you that you're obviously and clearly not doing it right, in the end that is what needs to be communicated to you if you ever want to bake the cake without it falling. The only solution is to figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. The cake's not going to magically work someday if you're not putting enough baking soda in it, cooking it too hot or cold, slamming it around, putting too much butter or milk in it, shorting the flour amount, or etc., etc., etc.

So yeah, I get that if I say, "You're not doing it right," (particularly not being a master chef myself) that you or others like you might get their feelings hurt and, maybe, storm off in a huff, never to bake again. But I can't rightly say, "well, clearly, you did it right and it fell anyway" because that's not true. There's a master chef that teaches us how to bake the cake. If you're not getting the results that master chef promised, then you need to go back to him and figure out what you're doing wrong.

And the fact that my cake rose without all the trouble doesn't make me a better cook. But I don't have to be a better cook to know that something is wrong if your cake keeps falling.

Anyhow...hopefully that's helpful...but if not, I won't debate the matter. I'm going to follow the prophet's council to not have contention. Hopefully the way I've come across here hasn't sounded contentious. If it has I apologize. I'm still working on it.

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We would do well to remember there is an aspect of "The Lord's timing" as well to all his promises.  We know this, we get taught this, and yet all too often we fall into the trap of "God as a vending machine" and we really should know better.
 
The Book of Mormon promise is True... God will reveal the Truth of it to everyone who does what it requires.  However we often add our own little expectation/requirement that God would do it right immediately after.  But that is nowhere in the promise.  It does appear to be how it works for most people, which can reinforce this idea, but it is not really in the promise.
 
I know for me the answer came, but it did not come quickly.  I was in "I choose to believe" mode for nearly a year once I got serious about gaining a witness. Then I got the promised witness, that allowed me to move to "I know"
 
Why did it take so much longer for me?  I have no idea, it wasn't from lack of faith or willingness to believe or willingness to do the work, because it clearly did happen for me.  Clearly the Lord had his reasons, and one day I hope to understand them.
Edited by estradling75
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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Anyhow...hopefully that's helpful...but if not, I won't debate the matter. I'm going to follow the prophet's council to not have contention. Hopefully the way I've come across here hasn't sounded contentious. If it has I apologize. I'm still working on it.

I sympathize with where you are coming from, and I largely understand it too as I've been in the Church nearly my whole life.

Everyone has different levels of communication abilities, not only in being able to express ourselves, but also in being aware of boundaries necessary to manage a civil discussion especially when talking about personal matters such as how we believe.

I think being aware of those boundaries can be done while at the same time striking a healthy balance with staying true to ourselves and speaking our truth. 

No need for apologies. I don't have any contention with you. After I got to know you and your personality a bit more, I have a positive opinion of you and think you're a good guy, not that my opinion on any of this should matter. But you trying to sympathize with me does matter to me, so thanks brother!

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9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Not to brag or anything, but I got one of the 12 coming.

@LDSGator I was gonna let this run for a little bit for giggles but probably would feel too guilty. He’s a GA but not one of the 12. It’s Elder Holmes who I believe is in the Young Men’s Presidency. 

BDE60781-21C8-49A6-8B7F-18C6D258E370.jpeg.4de9a820eaf678015de41d1de650c26a.jpeg

Edited by clbent04
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18 hours ago, clbent04 said:
  • I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired

Out of curiosity, how would you describe that feeling when you read the Bible?  And are there any specific passages that make you feel that way more than others?

Are there any passages in the Bible that make you feel like it is just a bit contrived?

Edited by Carborendum
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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Out of curiosity, how would you describe that feeling when you read the Bible?  And are there any specific passages that make you feel that way more than others?

Are there any passages in the Bible that make you feel like it is just a bit contrived?

Good question. Yes, many passages, but primarily the Savior’s words as recorded in the first four books of the New Testament. The words of Isaiah I find to be powerful and much of what is written by Paul.

Do I think the Bible is inerrant? I don’t know. I’ve seen some of the examples of how the JST’s provide clarity, but to be honest I’m not much of a scriptorian to have a solid opinion. 

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37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Are there any passages in the Bible that make you feel like it is just a bit contrived?

I take much of what the Bible says literally although I think we all eventually wonder things like how exactly did Adam and Eve appear on the Earth (was it instantaneous or did it take years to form their bodies and what were the specifics the rib bone operation?).

I haven’t had the same feeling that the Bible or any parts of it were fabricated compared to when I read the Book of Mormon. 

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18 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I gave a talk with a GA last year.   It was a great experience.   
 

Humility goes a long way.  

Oh yeah. My grandpa was a GA, I’m a direct descendant of Brigham Young, and I had a tea party with a Seventy last month (tea substituted with Sparkling Cider).

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12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I take much of what the Bible says literally although I think we all eventually wonder things like how exactly did Adam and Eve appear on the Earth (was it instantaneous or did it take years to form their bodies and what were the specifics the rib bone operation?).

I haven’t had the same feeling that the Bible or any parts of it were fabricated compared to when I read the Book of Mormon. 

I have a question for you (then) concerning the creation account in Genesis.  You have no problem with the earth being created and haveing trees producing fruit before the sun provided any light or energy in our solar system?  No possibility that was fabricated?

 

The Traveler

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14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have a question for you (then) concerning the creation account in Genesis.  You have no problem with the earth being created and haveing trees producing fruit before the sun provided any light or energy in our solar system?  No possibility that was fabricated?

If I believe that God has the power to forgive me for my sins and that He conquered death for us all, how could I not believe in other inexplicable events?

Edited by clbent04
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