A General Authority Will Be Visiting Me This Saturday at My House


clbent04
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18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

sometimes its necessary to pray for a desire for a desire for a desire! This is not nonsense. Sometimes I’ve had to do just that. It works. “

I appreciate the time and everything you put into this post @askandanswer as well as everything @Carborendum said in his earlier post. Thank you both.

I have put in a lot of effort in my endeavor to draw closer to God. I can proudly say I'm closer to Him at this point in my life than I ever have been. I see Him working with me and molding me into a better version of myself maybe not everyday, but in an overall positive trajectory as I reflect on my years.

I've wrestled with the Book of Mormon my entire life starting back when I was a teenager. Now I'm 36, and I've realized that for many years I was overly consumed in trying to receive an answer of the truthfulness of Book of Mormon to the point it inhibited my spiritual growth.

I became bogged down in trying to get an answer to where it partially made me lose focus on what really matters: my relationship with God. I think everyone has the potential to get overly consumed with the religious side of things to the point spiritual matters lose focus. At least it did in my experience.

My opinion now is if the Book of Mormon draws you closer to Christ, that's wonderful. Eat it up. But if it doesn't, if you're someone like me who has better luck centering themselves on our Redeemer with the Bible, then read the Bible. Do what works for you.

Even if I decide to stay in the Church for the many reasons I like it, the Church's own position agrees with my belief that I don't have to accept the Book of Mormon to be saved. I only have to accept Jesus Christ as is the condition for all of us. But there's problems with someone like me in my position. I wouldn't feel it would be appropriate to accept a Church calling where I was expected to share beliefs about the Book of Mormon, and my skepticism of temple ordinances also puts a roadblock in my potential growth within the Church.

I could be happy being the Building Security guy the rest of my life, but I'm just not sure if that's the position I want to take when I might be able to flourish more so in a non-denominal or Protestant Christian church. But then again, I have a soft spot for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members. It's a good organization.

The good news is, we are all brothers and sisters, and God is mindful of each and every one of us. He knows our hearts. He knows my heart. He knows I'm doing the best I can, just like most people are with the limited information we have. We're still brothers and sisters regardless of who does and doesn't embrace the Book of Mormon, and Jesus' grace is great enough for all of us. 

Am I concerned about having to look up and wave to all you guys from second deck (the Terrestrial Kingdom)? I used to be. It used to consume me with how intently I focused on getting to the Celestial Kingdom. But that doesn't consume me anymore as my beliefs have evolved to a more healthy, comprehensive and inclusive view of all mankind. I find peace in thinking about the nature of God and observing how He loves all His children.

There's no one on this Earth inside or outside of the Church who has been able to completely shed all of their assumptions and judgments since no one has all the answers and no one is perfect. We are imperfect humans trying to figure things out on planet Earth orbiting the Sun as the galaxy simultaneously orbits a black hole. In the scheme of things, I don't see how us disagreeing on something like the Book of Mormon even matters. If it is true, great, I was wrong, our Savior has already forgiven me for my short-sidedness. If it's false, the same applies to those who were misguided. 

I believe the true test in the end, what will matter most, are the two greatest commandments, and there's many different routes leading us to be developed in relation to those two commandments.

Edited by clbent04
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Hi @clbent04,

Thanks for sharing where you're at in your journey.  Speaking as a mod, I wanted to make sure you understood that as long as you're not off breaking site rules, you're just as welcome here as anyone else.  

Speaking as a guy who likes coming here, I'm hoping you'll stick around.  I really want to hear about this upcoming dinner!

Edited by NeuroTypical
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21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hi @clbent04,

Thanks for sharing where you're at in your journey.  Speaking as a mod, I wanted to make sure you understood that as long as you're not off breaking site rules, you're just as welcome here as anyone else.  

Speaking as a guy who likes coming here, I'm hoping you'll stick around.  I really want to hear about this upcoming dinner!

I am totally with this...well except the part about speaking as a guy.  I hope you stick around too.  I've had a lot of fun the last couple of days.  It reminded me of the good ol' days on these forums.  

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On 4/13/2023 at 10:37 AM, clbent04 said:

We might have to try a third time. What scripture are you referring to?

Who's to say there wasn't? Do you discredit the service from the men and women that went into preserving God's Bible to where it is available to us today because they didn't do so under the umbrella of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? The only way I've ever been able to validate revelation received by others is studying it out in my mind, prayer, meditation....

I seek truth and try my best here on Earth with the limited information I have just like everyone else. I have nothing concrete to go off of other than the feelings in my heart. I fully support anyone who says reading the Book of Mormon draws them closer to God. That just hasn't been my experience. The Book of Mormon has a lot of positive messages, but it just doesn't center me and my thoughts on the Savior the same way the New Testament does.

I will help you – It is the Book of Enoch.   The text of the Book of Enoch is referenced specifically as ancient scripture in the New Testament book of Jude verses 14-15.  However, to understand the importance of this manuscript and how it affects our scriptures we are faced what is called “textual criticism”.    The LDS contributions to textual criticism of the ancient Biblical text is basically nothing.  Most comes from Catholic orders that have studied ancient text for as long as Christianity (as currently defined as a world religion) has existed.

I will attempt a quick summary.  Our modern Bibles are referred to as “versions” – this is because there are no direct translations of any ancient manuscripts.  What is done is what could be described as a smorgasbord approach of picking bits and pieces from various manuscripts that supports preconceived notions of doctrine.   One possible exception is the Book of Isaiah – which is referenced to as exception of scripture in the Book of Mormon.  The books to comprise the Bible (which is a term specifying books) has long been discussed and argued and varies throughout Christianity.  Not so much between Catholics and Protestants (though there are substantial disagreement) but more so in the early branches of Christianity, mainly Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Nestorian Christians (mostly in Persia and Asia) and Gnostics.

For most of Western Christian history it was believed that the Masoretic texts were the most accurate.  This was abruptly changed with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scriptures and Scrolls. It is now understood that the Masoretic texts are perhaps the least accurate and has had a profound effect on the reading and interpretation of ancient Biblical text.  I would point out that of the thousands of ancient texts available there are no two that are identical.  Historically the weight of which text are most reliable has always been more political in time and place than revelation resulting in great disagreements between science and religion beginning with Galileo.

Besides the Dead Sea Scrolls dealing with the Old Testament; a cash of New Testament Scriptures were discovered in the early 19th century but have been kept somewhat secret – What books comprised this early (predates all text currently used) has been kept secret and any publications withheld.

The ancient Biblical text, besides being variant have another problem.  There are no classification of original text that exist.  There are no autograph nor autogram texts to validate any ancient Biblical text.  An autograph text is a manuscript written by the hand of the author.  An autogram text is a manuscript written as a copy of an autograph in the same style and literary structure consistent with the history and time when the author lived.

For me personally, I have great difficulty dealing with the emotions and impressions of myself or others concerning what is accurate or believable.  My personal experience with relying on emotions and impressions have always resulted in a train wreak for all things from science to falling in love and dealing with others.  Historically those that have followed their emotions and impressions outside of logic and reason have contributed to the saddest pages of history in my mind.  And yet I fully support the LDS concept of allowing others to believe and worship whatever and however they will.  However you come to terms with revelation (ancient or modern) is your responsibility for which only you will be held accountable. 

I thank you for allowing me to discuss with you what I have found of profound importance to me – at least in part.

 

The Traveler

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On 4/12/2023 at 12:55 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Please share how the meeting goes!

It was a great visit. The GA and a member of the Stake Presidency came to visit me. We strongly felt the Holy Spirit, and it's been a long time since I felt it that powerfully. They shared a lot of love with me and it was moving. I feel grateful they selflessly took time out of their lives to visit me.

I believe the visit was meant to be. It even worked out to where we had the house to ourselves since I didn't have my 6-year old daughter with me like I usually would since she was at her friend's birthday party with her Mom.

Personal experiences, stories and advice were shared in response to my doubts about the Book of Mormon, and as the point was stressed to keep trying, I brought up how I was concerned I might talk myself into a testimony of the Book of Mormon versus accepting it based on truth. 

The Holy Spirit most strongly manifested itself to me when the GA shared how he had been praying earlier this morning to help even just one person today, and how this meeting was meant to be, and how his assignment to visit my area had been assigned by Elder Ballard. I received a distinct impression as he was sharing all this that it was true and had been orchestrated by God and the Holy Spirit.

I plan to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I will continue trying to develop within it. I can't deny how powerfully the Holy Spirit manifested itself to me. 

I still have many questions and maybe some will remain a mystery to me till after this mortal existence, but the important thing is I feel like God blessed me today to get over my hurdle of uneasiness about the Church with all the mounting questions and skepticism I had about it.

I know I have a lot to learn, and even though I'm a slow learner, I'm hopeful to bring others unto Jesus Christ by sharing the kind of love that was shared with me today. 

I'm taking a new approach starting today. When it comes to the Church, I'm not going to fixate on the things I don't understand. I will focus on the things I do understand and allow God to fill in the rest in due course.

Edited by clbent04
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On 4/13/2023 at 4:00 AM, clbent04 said:
  • I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired
  • Temple ordinances don't make sense to me in relation to what the Bible teaches us

I'm delighted to hear that your meeting with a General Authority was such a spiritual experience. For me, such experiences help a lot t grow and strengthen my faith. 

I was wondering how you felt about the Doctrine and Covenants and whether you discussed temple ordinances during the visit?

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36 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I still have many questions and maybe some will remain a mystery to me till after this mortal existence

 

First, what a wonderful experience you had.

Now for my quote, I've had a couple of questions since my teen years.  The answer I received through the Holy Ghost about those questions was I would get those answers on the other side of the veil and they did not matter to my mortal existence (hmph ;) .)  

 

I am glad you had the experience you did and will remain in the church.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm taking a new approach starting today. When it comes to the Church, I'm not going to fixate on the things I don't understand. I will focus on the things I do understand and allow God to fill in the rest in due course.

This is the right approach.  Do as much as you can and let God magnify it - loaves & fishes - in the end, you'll have not only more than you started with, but more than enough.

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I was wondering how you felt about the Doctrine and Covenants and whether you discussed temple ordinances during the visit?

I didn’t bring up temple ordinances. I probably could have talked with them for 5 more hours, but the 1 hour we did share was well spent. 
 

As far as the Doctrine and Covenants, there’s a lot of good passages there, and I like reading about the unique doctrine you can’t find anywhere else, although I have to be careful going forward that I don’t let what I don’t understand consume me to the point it inhibits my spirituality such as the three kingdoms of glory and polygamy. 

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4 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I have to be careful going forward that I don’t let what I don’t understand consume me to the point it inhibits my spirituality such as the three kingdoms of glory and polygamy. 

Yeah. You really can't worry about things you don't understand. There's so much I don't understand. But we don't need to understand everything. We only need to know the Church is true*. The rest comes line upon line in God's time. And most of that we may not really ever understand in this life. 

*This goes hand in hand with knowing Jesus is the Christ. 

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22 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Holy Spirit most strongly manifested itself to me when ...
I received a distinct impression as he was sharing all this that ....
I can't deny how powerfully the Holy Spirit manifested itself ...

I'm taking a new approach starting today.

Cool beans.  I'm always grateful to hear when similar things that happened to me, happen to other folks.  As I have occasionally put it: "The spirit told me that the bizarre, hard-to-believe, sometimes outlandish story I hear about Joe Smith and gold bibles and mesoamerican Jews and angels in cornfields, is more than just a good collection of meaningful principles, it has the additional benefit of being true."   Thank you for sharing @clbent04.

 

 

(Although, now that you have a renewed sense of purpose, I must offer one small criticism.  It's "act", not "play".  Your Shakespeare quote.  I don't get this either, but apparently, we don't play a part, we act a part.)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=shakespeare+quote+"what+ere+thou+art"&ia=web

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6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Cool beans.  I'm always grateful to hear when similar things that happened to me, happen to other folks.  As I have occasionally put it: "The spirit told me that the bizarre, hard-to-believe, sometimes outlandish story I hear about Joe Smith and gold bibles and mesoamerican Jews and angels in cornfields, is more than just a good collection of meaningful principles, it has the additional benefit of being true."   Thank you for sharing @clbent04.

 

 

(Although, now that you have a renewed sense of purpose, I must offer one small criticism.  It's "act", not "play".  Your Shakespeare quote.  I don't get this either, but apparently, we don't play a part, we act a part.)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=shakespeare+quote+"what+ere+thou+art"&ia=web

Thanks @NeuroTypical

And regarding the quote, I knowingly did tweak it to “do.” I think it’s more comprehensible off the bat with the operative verb being changed from “act” to “do”, at least in the way of how I like to apply the expression.

Main reason I like that quote so much is it speaks to me of God’s love for all His children, and no matter what hand of cards you were dealt in this life, no matter which religion/beliefs you claimed, where you lived…, we all matter and have purposeful jobs to do, and in the end I think it matters more of what we did with what we were given rather than what religion we claimed.

That’s not to downplay or be dismissive of the gospel. There will come a time of reconciliation to unify all of us.

Edited by clbent04
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7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

(Although, now that you have a renewed sense of purpose, I must offer one small criticism.  It's "act", not "play".  Your Shakespeare quote.  I don't get this either, but apparently, we don't play a part, we act a part.)

Not Shakespeare. I think it's just an early modern English translation of a Gaelic inscription or saying. While on his mission to the British Isles, President McKay saw the saying carved in stone. In my judgment, "act" is definitely the correct word, and not merely because that was the original saying. In life, we are each called upon to wear many hats and fill many important functional roles in society—in short, to play many parts. Not all such parts are grand and glorious, but we may assume that all are necessarily to a healthy and well-functioning whole. We should strive to act that part well when called upon to do so, whatever that part is and however minor it may seem.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Is there a difference between "acting" a part and "playing" a part?

I don’t have a good technical answer. They sound the same to me.

I don’t like “act” or “play” because either could be interpreted as “pretend,” whereas “do” focuses more on the actions you are in control of, not something you’re merely trying to feign. 

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48 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I don’t like “act” or “play” because either could be interpreted as “pretend,”

I rather wonder if that's somewhat the point. Kind of a "fake it 'til you make it" thing. But it does depend on how you look at it.

I think there's value in "faking it" if it comes from a point of view of trying and effort rather than hypocrisy. I think there's the idea fits in nicely with the concept of "the natural man is and an enemy to God...unless he puts off the natural man and yields to the enticing's of the Holy Spirit."

We're dual natured beings, right? We are going to be mortal, carnal beings. We put off that side of ourselves and "act" or "play" the part of being righteous.

Yes, "pretending" to be righteous would be hypocrisy, and would be a very bad thing. But "acting" righteous even when you feel wicked is not the same thing. It's a choice of effort, commitment, and intent. In that regard, "acting" or "playing" the part can be viewed very positively. I think a big part of that is whether the "act" is for others or not. If one is putting on an act for others without the trying it's hypocrisy. If one is putting on the act for themselves in a legitimate effort to become then it's call "practice".

But...yeah... even as I talked through my thoughts here, I've answered my own question a bit. I think "act" can be viewed as "pretense" or as simply "action". Whereas "play" kind of only means "pretense".

Just some thoughts I had.

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47 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I rather wonder if that's somewhat the point. Kind of a "fake it 'til you make it" thing. But it does depend on how you look at it.

I think there's value in "faking it" if it comes from a point of view of trying and effort rather than hypocrisy. I think there's the idea fits in nicely with the concept of "the natural man is and an enemy to God...unless he puts off the natural man and yields to the enticing's of the Holy Spirit."

We're dual natured beings, right? We are going to be mortal, carnal beings. We put off that side of ourselves and "act" or "play" the part of being righteous.

Yes, "pretending" to be righteous would be hypocrisy, and would be a very bad thing. But "acting" righteous even when you feel wicked is not the same thing. It's a choice of effort, commitment, and intent. In that regard, "acting" or "playing" the part can be viewed very positively. I think a big part of that is whether the "act" is for others or not. If one is putting on an act for others without the trying it's hypocrisy. If one is putting on the act for themselves in a legitimate effort to become then it's call "practice".

This is a similar thought process I went down when initially reflecting upon the quote. I thought to myself when creating my avatar/icon of how it would be simpler perhaps for me and others to bypass the semantic discussion of "act" and replace it with "do" to more clearly convey upfront why I like the quote and have less ambiguity to its meaning, but to think I'd get out of that semantic discussion was silly of me. This is ThirdHour. Lol. I will say since joining this forum it's helped develop me to communicate more precisely and accurately with what I'm trying to say. 

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