Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God and prayer


floridaman1
 Share

Recommended Posts

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, floridaman1 said:

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

I consider this to be a great question, and a gateway to understanding more about our relationship to God and what he expects of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We believe that God is our Heavenly Father, and we figure there are some basic similarities between an earthly father and a Heavenly one.

Sometimes, I already know what my kid wants and needs, before they ask.  Sometimes, I know it better than they do.  Sometimes I'll wait for them to ask, because it shows me they're ready.

I know the "helicopter parents" phenomenon, where a parent plans a kid's entire day out, down to the minute, down to every single action.  Including times for bathroom breaks, and a script of things to pray for.  And they implement their plan on their kid.  As time goes on, this tends to turn out horribly.  I don't think God is like that.

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, floridaman1 said:

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

As a scientist (now retired) I appreciate your question.  I believe that my personal beliefs and understanding of G-d fit best with LDS theology.  I believe that mankind and G-d are the same species, and this is why scriptures speak of mankind being in the image and likeness of G-d.

It is my thought that we (mankind) are thus closely related to G-d and thus, as our spiritual father, he is very interested in us and our eternal capability.  He desires that we become likewise invested in him.   I believe prayer is a critical link we have with G-d and I am impressed that G-d holds in reserve many blessings for those that will ask to become more understanding of him and his divine intensions.  That it is his intent that we become invested with him of our own free will and choice.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, floridaman1 said:

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

It depends on what you mean by omniscient. I take it to mean that God knows indeterminately more than I do, which still allows Him to negotiate and intervene on alternative outcomes in my experience based on my application of faith. Prayer is an act of faith, hearing prayers an act of love, and answering prayers (one way or another) an act of stewardship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always thought this text from the Bible Dictionary entry on Prayer sounded correct and helpful:

Quote

Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

...

We pray in Christ’s name when our mind is the mind of Christ, and our wishes the wishes of Christ—when His words abide in us (John 15:7). We then ask for things it is possible for God to grant. Many prayers remain unanswered because they are not in Christ’s name at all; they in no way represent His mind but spring out of the selfishness of man’s heart.

Frankly, I'm glad they've removed the "template" for prayer that used to be taught (at least, it's gone from Preach My Gospel), and replaced it with something more in line with the above, and not transactional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

I've always thought this text from the Bible Dictionary entry on Prayer sounded correct and helpful:

Frankly, I'm glad they've removed the "template" for prayer that used to be taught (at least, it's gone from Preach My Gospel), and replaced it with something more in line with the above, and not transactional.

The transactional nature taught of many things we do as worship, including prayer and also including scripture study, alms toward others, and simply living a Christlike life, has always bothered me in some way. I note that the scriptures themselves, even the words of God, contain this transactional element. But I don't look at Christ's atonement and see a transaction that Jesus freely engaged in. I see a gift from a Father to children that he considers precious beyond measure. I suppose we could view our relationships with our own children as fundamentally transactional, but I don't like that.

As specific to zil's comment about prayer, I have not personally found the "template" to be particularly transactional. But I have always found it a bit, I don't know the right word, formal or wooden or stiff or somehow not really natural. Christ's example prayer given to his disciples, what the Catholics call "Our Father", really doesn't strike me as transactional, but more conversational and worshipful. You could view it transactionally, if you think that our praise to God somehow makes him feel better about himself, but I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. I always felt funny teaching people to pray by saying A, then B, then some combination of C, D, and E, and then end with F. But that's basically how we first teach our children to pray, so I decided it's probably appropriate for primary (or Primary) lessons in how to pray.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Vort said:

The transactional nature taught of many things we do as worship, including prayer and also including scripture study, alms toward others, and simply living a Christlike life, has always bothered me in some way. I note that the scriptures themselves, even the words of God, contain this transactional element. But I don't look at Christ's atonement and see a transaction that Jesus freely engaged in. I see a gift from a Father to children that he considers precious beyond measure. I suppose we could view our relationships with our own children as fundamentally transactional, but I don't like that.

As specific to zil's comment about prayer, I have not personally found the "template" to be particularly transactional. But I have always found it a bit, I don't know the right word, formal or wooden or stiff or somehow not really natural. Christ's example prayer given to his disciples, what the Catholics call "Our Father", really doesn't strike me as transactional, but more conversational and worshipful. You could view it transactionally, if you think that our praise to God somehow makes him feel better about himself, but I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. I always felt funny teaching people to pray by saying A, then B, then some combination of C, D, and E, and then end with F. But that's basically how we first teach our children to pray, so I decided it's probably appropriate for primary (or Primary) lessons in how to pray.

Yes, I think this is a fitting milk-before-meat approach that is the only way we can communicate to people on trying the basics and move forward to more relational experiences as we first plant but then feel the seed swell and eventually enjoy the fruits (per Alma 32). If they feel the Spirit during these teaching moments, all the better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, floridaman1 said:

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

After twenty years of marriage, my wife and I are pretty in tune with each other’s short-term needs and wants, values, opinions on family and current events, etc.  I am a dedicated introvert; and my “love language” is time/service—I could spend an entire day saying fewer than ten words to my wife, and at the end of the day think that it had been a great day and that our marriage was going swimmingly.  But my wife, for her part, craves conversation; and the more people I meet the more I realize my penchant for solitude and silence is probably at least a little extreme.

God is a god of relationships.  Prayer, like an evening conversation with a spouse, isn’t about getting stuff or changing the other person’s mind (although vis a vis prayer, the scriptures tell us that can happen).  It’s ultimately about the bonding, reconciliation, and strengthening that comes through the fact that the conversation occurred at all.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally get the idea of developing a relationship with God through prayer and I understand how He withholds blessings from us until we ask as part of that learning process. What I haven't truly come to terms with is how praying for others works. Would God withhold a blessing from another person because I don't pray for them? Would Alma the younger have been left to his life of sin had his father not prayed earnestly for him? Today I am fasting for a friend who is having a serious surgery performed today but I found myself wondering last night wether God's plan for her would be at all influenced by the prayers of mine and others. We are taught that somehow it does but I'm trying to reconcile in my mind the justness of such a principle. I understand that it's not just justice but mercy too, but if a successful result of the surgery is in the best interest for my friend would not God grant that anyways?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, laronius said:

I totally get the idea of developing a relationship with God through prayer and I understand how He withholds blessings from us until we ask as part of that learning process. What I haven't truly come to terms with is how praying for others works. Would God withhold a blessing from another person because I don't pray for them? Would Alma the younger have been left to his life of sin had his father not prayed earnestly for him? Today I am fasting for a friend who is having a serious surgery performed today but I found myself wondering last night wether God's plan for her would be at all influenced by the prayers of mine and others. We are taught that somehow it does but I'm trying to reconcile in my mind the justness of such a principle. I understand that it's not just justice but mercy too, but if a successful result of the surgery is in the best interest for my friend would not God grant that anyways?

These questions bedevil me too.

Where I’m kind of leaning at the moment is that there are probably a lot of things we go through in life that hurt, but that in and of themselves aren’t terribly formative on us in the long run (whether for good or for ill) and which, as exalted beings with a perfect love for and patience with our fellow man, we’ll be able to look back on with an indulgent smile (or at least a roll of the eyes) rather than any real lingering trauma.  Maybe I actually wouldn’t have gotten in that fender-bender if my kids had just prayed for me a little harder last night . . . but, in the grand scheme of things, so what?  I wasn’t put on earth to avoid fender-benders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2023 at 7:46 AM, floridaman1 said:

If God the Father is Omnipotent/Sovereign/All knowing God then how is it that our prayers have any effect or affect on the outcome of Earthly matters? If the outcome is already known, why make prayers of intercession or requests? Praying prayers of praise and thanksgiving make sense, but what of other types of prayers?

I stopped making requests in prayer a couple years ago. At this point in my life, it's a pointless exercise (for me). We are in God's hands and hard experiences will continue happening regardless if we try to pray away those hard experiences. We are at God's mercy. 

Instead of making requests, I simply express gratitude. My prayers that only express gratitude to God are much more sincere and meaningful. 

With that said, I think God wants us to ask Him for things especially when it comes to the building of His Kingdom. "Please God help me find one person today I can help." I think that's a request God will always grant when it's said in prayer sincerely.

The tricky part about prayer is there's various levels to it depending on our spirituality. For example, giving gratitude is easy. If we aren't super strong in spiritual matters (like me), then that's a good place to start, whereas asking for specific things requires a greater spiritual acuity. When you ask for something, I believe it has to be in line with God's will in order for Him to use His power to effectuate it, and knowing what specifically God wants when it comes to my Uncle surviving cancer or dying from it requires a higher level of spirituality to discern.

If you're not there yet, don't beat yourself up about it. Neither am I. I'm happy just giving thanks for now, but I keep my eye on growing spiritually and learning how to discern the promptings of the Spirit. I believe this can be achieved by living more obediently to the gospel.

Edited by clbent04
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As stated by @CV75 I think that God is smart enough to deal with alternative outcomes.

A possible answer to this question might be partially illuminated by looking at what happens when we pray about something, receive an answer to that prayer and then disregard, or act contrary, to the answer received.

An interesting case study to consider is Joseph Smith’s prayers about whether or not he should allow Martin Harris to take the gold plates. Joseph prayed about it and God said no. He prayed again and God said no again. I think he prayed a third time and God said something like it’s up to you. Joseph gave the plates to Martin and never saw them again. God had already foreseen this at least as far back as the time that Mormon was compiling the plates and possibly as far back as when Nephi first engraved them. No matter what Joseph decided to do in answer to his prayers – give the plates to Martin, or not give them - God was in a good position to respond.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An equally interesting case study, that might point to a different answer is provided by covid19. From memory, at least twice, President Nelson fasted and prayed, and ask the whole world to fast and pray, for relief from covid. It’s difficult to determine what, if any, impact these prayers had. One would have thought that since it was the Prophet, who is often understood to be in pretty good touch with God, was the one asking us to fast and pray, there would be an increased likelihood that the prayed for outcome would come to pass, but I’m uncertain as to whether the evidence supports that conclusion. I guess this is one time when the answer was no. On the other hand, a vaccine was developed much faster than anybody thought would be possible, so perhaps that was an answer to the global fasting and prayer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

An equally interesting case study, that might point to a different answer is provided by covid19. From memory, at least twice, President Nelson fasted and prayed, and ask the whole world to fast and pray, for relief from covid. It’s difficult to determine what, if any, impact these prayers had. One would have thought that since it was the Prophet, who is often understood to be in pretty good touch with God, was the one asking us to fast and pray, there would be an increased likelihood that the prayed for outcome would come to pass, but I’m uncertain as to whether the evidence supports that conclusion. I guess this is one time when the answer was no. On the other hand, a vaccine was developed much faster than anybody thought would be possible, so perhaps that was an answer to the global fasting and prayer. 

I would say the impacts of these fasts and prayers were both individual and general. Where matters of spirit are not falsifiable, a prophet speaks generally so that the Spirit can minister individually as we apply faith to his words. The Spirit shows us the fulfillment of the general as well as the individual outcome, but it is still a matter of faith, more in the way of testimony than in the way of indisputable statistics (which, given the politicization of the matter, is unlikely to ever happen!).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/21/2023 at 1:55 AM, askandanswer said:

An interesting case study to consider is Joseph Smith’s prayers about whether or not he should allow Martin Harris to take the gold plates. Joseph prayed about it and God said no. He prayed again and God said no again. I think he prayed a third time and God said something like it’s up to you. Joseph gave the plates to Martin and never saw them again.

The pages on which the translation was written, you mean.

The first story I thought of upon reading the original post was one from the Old Testament, where it was revealed to someone that he was going to die soon. He didn't want that to happen, requested that it not, and his request was granted. I'll go find the references.

Okay, it was Hezekiah.

Quote

In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying, I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake.

2 Kings 20:1-6

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, SilentOne said:

The pages on which the translation was written, you mean.

The first story I thought of upon reading the original post was one from the Old Testament, where it was revealed to someone that he was going to die soon. He didn't want that to happen, requested that it not, and his request was granted. I'll go find the references.

Okay, it was Hezekiah.

 

Deleted

Edited by askandanswer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Yes, I remember the story. It's events like that that could raise questions about God's credibility. When He says something, can we believe it or not, or do we need to keep in mind the possibility that He might change His mind? 

Perhaps I would offer a differing opinion?  That G-d is willing to listen to our petitions and if there is benefit; to allow it to come to pass.   To me it lends more to the creditability of G-d that intends that we are engaged and invested in our lives’ outcome and accomplishments – even our corrupted mortal lives, when there is benefit – even just a tiny benefit.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know of a story where destiny was set in stone... for most people.  But certain individuals had the power to alter destiny.  And such alteration also tended to create ripple effects which could further alter destiny in ways not imagined.

I tend to believe that this is true on some level.  Just how much?  That has not been revealed to us.

While this is not a complete answer to the OP, I believe that by informing the question with this philosophy could take the thought processes into more enlightening directions.

Edited by Carborendum
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share