Children and Covenants


laronius
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1 hour ago, Vort said:

To whom would they be sealed in marriage?

Perhaps that is something that would be taken care of in the Millennium. But until then there are other ordinances.

I'm just curious how such things are viewed by God considering the fact that we don't perform ordinances for them (outside of being sealed to their family).

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24 minutes ago, laronius said:

Perhaps that is something that would be taken care of in the Millennium. But until then there are other ordinances.

I'm just curious how such things are viewed by God considering the fact that we don't perform ordinances for them (outside of being sealed to their family).

Children do not need baptism, as the scriptures abundantly attest. Without baptism, none of the other ordinances are either necessary nor even possible, aside from sealing to parents. So with that one exception, if they don't need baptism, they don't need the other ordinances.

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Children do not need baptism, as the scriptures abundantly attest. Without baptism, none of the other ordinances are either necessary nor even possible, aside from sealing to parents. So with that one exception, if they don't need baptism, they don't need the other ordinances.

I'm not arguing that we should be doing things different than how we are at this time. Rather, I'm curious what if anything will be required of them in relation to the Celestial Law that we covenant to obey. Are they recipients of eternal life? Yes. But they still have to abide the conditions of eternal life. I am interested in whether that will take covenant form as it does for us and if so why is it different than for those who live to the age of accountability.

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8 minutes ago, laronius said:

I'm not arguing that we should be doing things different than how we are at this time. Rather, I'm curious what if anything will be required of them in relation to the Celestial Law that we covenant to obey. Are they recipients of eternal life? Yes. But they still have to abide the conditions of eternal life. I am interested in whether that will take covenant form as it does for us and if so why is it different than for those who live to the age of accountability.

I suspect that we do not understand the nature of our premortality, or for that matter of our mortality, and of what early leaders called our "eternal lives" (see D&C 132:24). Lacking this perspective, I think we lack a key to understand how such things work. I am sure that when we regain that perspective, in this life or the life to come, all will make sense.

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I'm in understanding, at this moment, it is precisely because they are alive in Christ (those who die before the age of accountability). Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability. In our earth life we don't even baptize kids before they are of the age of eight. It seems right that we don't baptize them also who died before the age of accountability, because we are informed they do not need it.

We are informed also that children who die of a certain age will resurrect at that specific age. They will grow into maturity which is interesting in and of itself seeing we are resurrected with perfect bodies. A perfect body that grows, which is something more to think about and only provides more questions.

The other ordinances require the first gate to be opened -- baptism. If we aren't baptized, then the ordinance of priesthood, endowment, initiatory, etc... are not able to be bestowed upon us without baptism. I assume baptism will be done for these children as they grow (but that is speculative). Sealing is the only covenant that doesn't require baptism first.

These are my thoughts.

Edited by Anddenex
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21 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

We are informed also that children who die of a certain age will resurrect at that specific age. They will grow into maturity which is interesting in and of itself seeing we are resurrected with perfect bodies. A perfect body that grows, which is something more to think about and only provides more questions.

I had the thought, yesterday, I think, that perhaps progress after the resurrection is something like progress in the temple.  We know that people will have a lot of learning to do before they become like God, and couldn't we liken that, then, to progressing from telestial, to terrestrial, to celestial (to second celestial and on to third celestial)?  Just a thought...

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

I'm in understanding, at this moment, it is precisely because they are alive in Christ (those who die before the age of accountability). Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability. In our earth life we don't even baptize kids before they are of the age of eight. It seems right that we don't baptize them also who died before the age of accountability, because we are informed they do not need it.

We are informed also that children who die of a certain age will resurrect at that specific age. They will grow into maturity which is interesting in and of itself seeing we are resurrected with perfect bodies. A perfect body that grows, which is something more to think about and only provides more questions.

The other ordinances require the first gate to be opened -- baptism. If we aren't baptized, then the ordinance of priesthood, endowment, initiatory, etc... are not able to be bestowed upon us without baptism. I assume baptism will be done for these children as they grow (but that is speculative). Sealing is the only covenant that doesn't require baptism first.

These are my thoughts.

Those are some interesting thoughts. Perhaps they don't need vicarious work performed on their behalf because they will have the opportunity to enter into those covenants themselves.

There is definitely a difference though between being worthy and being godly. Little children are automatically redeemed from the Fall and therefore justified or worthy. But sanctification is a process wherein we become Christlike and it is not a state that can simply be granted someone. Every heir of all that God has must work towards this Celestial condition in order to achieve it and I don't see why those who die before accountability would not be under the same condition. 

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45 minutes ago, laronius said:

But sanctification is a process wherein we become Christlike and it is not a state that can simply be granted someone. Every heir of all that God has must work towards this Celestial condition in order to achieve it and I don't see why those who die before accountability would not be under the same condition. 

It is clear that some progressed farther in the premortal realm than others.  It is also clear that God has some say over who ends up where in mortality.  IMO, it is entirely possible that those who died before the age of accountability were (largely?) spirits who progressed farther than the rest of us.  At the very least, it would seem they did not need a lot of time in mortality to progress.  (Yes, all my speculation, but it seems reasonable.)

Edited by zil2
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I speculate that we will learn how it all works in the millennium.  We are told by modern revelation that children under the age of accountability do not need baptism to avoid going to hell (spirit prison).  Other than this we are dealing with speculation – seldom does speculation need no adjustments as we continue learning.   

 

The Traveler

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A brief history on salvation for the dead in the latter days:

1 ) Sept 21, 1823 - Moroni reveals to Joseph Smith that Elijah will return with a priesthood that turns children to fathers.

2 ) Nov 19, 1823 - Alvin Smith dies. At his funeral the minister insinuates unbaptized Alvin is hell-bound.

3 ) Jan 21, 1836 - Joseph Smith sees in vision a future day when Alvin is in the celestial kingdom and discovers that those who would have received the restored gospel are heirs of that kingdom (and unaccountable children are saved in that kingdom).

4 ) Apr 3, 1836 - Elijah gives Joseph Smith the sealing keys

5 ) Aug 15, 1840 - Joseph Smith delivers a sermon on the salvation for the dead and instructs the saints that they may be baptized for the dead. (Hyrum Smith is baptized for Alvin that same year)

6 ) Jan 19, 1841 - Joseph receives a revelation that baptisms for the dead should really be performed in temples.

7 ) Sept 6, 1842 - In an epistle to the Church, Joseph explains more about the doctrine of baptism for the dead and how Elijah's keys make the ordinance effective. In light of this doctrine he gives some best practices for perfoming the ordinance.

There's more to the history, but let's leave it at baptisms for the dead. What I'd like for you to consider is to consider that you were a saint (or even Joseph) in between each of these milestones. (1) is a significant revelation, but pairing Malachi with Joel tells you that Jesus is coming soon an you'll have a part in it and this book will too. There is nothing in here addressing the soteriological problem. We'll come back to Malachi and Elijah (much) later. (2) is a tragedy, but in the minister's defense he taught sound doctrine. The Bible clearly teaches baptism is a requirement for heaven and Joseph didn't receive any revelation to contradict it. Father Smith did not like what was said, and it probably bothered the entire Smith family, but God's law is God's law.

I want you to sit with this a bit because the next milestone doesn't happen for another 12 years. 12 years ago was about the time Osama bin Laden was killed. Occupy Wall Street got a lot of press, as did the Arab Spring. The Oprah Winfrey show had their final episode. That was 3 US Presidents ago and President Obama was still in his first term.

12 years pass and what is finally revealed? Alvin is not damned. God, knowing the thoughts and intents of his heart, recognized that he would have received baptism if he had lived 7 years longer. That's reassuring for the Smith family, but what is the doctrinal fallout? The soteriological problem is solved but is baptism really required then? If it still is, then how does this revelation square with that?

Another 4 years pass. 4 years ago the Notre-dame cathedral caught fire. Protesters marched in Hong Kong. Theresa May stepped down as PM over Brexit.

4 years pass and what is finally revealed? The living can be baptized as proxies for the dead. After 4 years Joseph and the saints finally have the solution that brings God's law, judgment, justice, and mercy into balance.

It's also worth noting a doctrinal gem that is in the background of all this. At each of these steps, the doctrine of Elijah is revealed but it isn't until 1842 (19 years after he was first taught it - left as an exercise to the reader) that Joseph explains to the saints that Elijah is key to this work.

And now a follow up question to this - this seems to rest on the God's foreknowledge, what is going on in the Spirit World? 3/4 of a century later Joseph F. Smith receives a revelation that explains this. Agency is restored as the guiding principle, and some correction is made to Peter's (and Joseph Smith's for that matter) understanding of Christ's intervention in the Spirit World.

This is lengthy and may seem irrelevant to the thread, but I wanted to lay the groundwork to emphasize a point President Oaks made some time ago. 

Quote

What do we really know about conditions in the spirit world? I believe a BYU religion professor’s article on this subject had it right: “When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’”

For the question at hand about children that aren't accountable, we are still at (3) - we know they'll be saved in the celestial kingdom and they are "alive in Christ" but we don't know the mechanism. We might even be at (4), but like the earlier saints not recognize the keys already in our possession. Regardless, there is a clear hole in our doctrine that needs further revelation. Again quoting President Oaks:

Quote

For all questions about the spirit world, I suggest two answers. First, remember that God loves His children and will surely do what is best for each of us. Second, remember this familiar Bible teaching, which has been most helpful to me on a multitude of unanswered questions:

“Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

“In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths” (Proverbs 3:5–6).

There's some additional counsel cautioning the use of speculation as official doctrine and I think the talk is worth a good read.

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13 hours ago, zil2 said:

I wonder if it won't all be taken care of in the Millennium.  It is curious, and will be interesting to learn more, one day.

I had always been under the impression that children who die as children will be raised to maturity during the Millennium after their resurrection.  If that’s the case, it seems logical that during that maturing process they would naturally have an opportunity to receive those ordinances and make the covenants associated with them; thus, doing their ordinances by proxy before their resurrection would be duplicative.

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On 4/29/2023 at 3:34 PM, laronius said:

Those are some interesting thoughts. Perhaps they don't need vicarious work performed on their behalf because they will have the opportunity to enter into those covenants themselves.

My apologies if I was unclear above. I believe proxy work will be done for these individuals once they are at a certain point in their growth because the work of the dead must be done by proxy (at least according to what has been revealed at this moment). I wasn't trying to insinuate they would be able to do such with mortals by proxy. But once they were taught and had come of age so to speak work would be done for them. This is speculative. It seems to make sense to me (a possibility) in light of what I have read from prophets words.

On 4/29/2023 at 3:34 PM, laronius said:

There is definitely a difference though between being worthy and being godly. Little children are automatically redeemed from the Fall and therefore justified or worthy. But sanctification is a process wherein we become Christlike and it is not a state that can simply be granted someone. Every heir of all that God has must work towards this Celestial condition in order to achieve it and I don't see why those who die before accountability would not be under the same condition. 

I agree with this statement, which is why I feel it has to do with the growth of their spirits and resurrected body. Even the Lord was baptized although he was clean. The condition still bound him to follow to remain perfect. The Savior could not have said, "I don't this," and still remain perfect. All would have been lost.

I'm looking forward to further truth, but who knows I may be beyond the veil before anything else is revealed. :)

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On 4/29/2023 at 8:12 AM, laronius said:

Why are ordinances/covenants not performed on behalf of deceased children? I get that they are automatically redeemed from the Fall but are those covenants not still essential for exaltation? 

Also, keep in mind that children age 8 and older, who have died, do have their temple work done by proxy. That would be baptism, if not baptized before death, Priesthood Ordination for males, Iniatory, and Endowment. Of course, they would have been too young to be married, so Sealing to a spouse would not be done.

I’m hesitant to share all details, but I had a very spiritual experience about a young cousin who died at the age of 13 around 1970/71. Her immediate family are not active members. She was a baptized member, but no one thought to have her temple work done. Those of you who have done a lot of Family History know that the veil can be thin at times, and spiritual insight is often gained. A number of years after her death, I happened to be in a spiritual environment, in the right mindset, and my mind was enlightened to the fact that my cousin needed her temple work done. I immediately called my grandmother to see if she knew if the temple work had been done. She didn’t know. So, I had to do some research. It hadn’t been done. This was all before Family Search. Now, it is so easy to go online and look to see if ordinances need to be done.

I don’t understand everything pertaining to the importance of the temple ordinances, but I know they need to be done even for those youth who have died after baptism, but before other life milestones have occurred. After my 19 year old daughter died in a car accident, we had her temple work done as soon as the one year waiting period was over.

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