Educate About Abuse and Patterns of Abuse


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*I do have grace for the lack of knowledge on the part of leaders.  It is difficult to find knowledgeable therapists so it is probably unreasonable on my part to expect church leaders to understand things that are just being understood in the mental health field.

*I’m still mad about it, though.

*I also think it is time to be DONE enabling abuse, and the way to do that is through education and conversations.



 “I urge each of us to be alert to anyone who might be in danger of being abused and to act promptly to protect them. The Savior will not tolerate abuse, and as His disciples, neither can we.”  -President Nelson

 

You can’t say that you have a zero tolerance for abuse, and then NOT educate your leaders on what abuse actually looks like.  My husband and I have spent 2 decades in the 12 step program and it was minimally helpful because it focuses on addiction and not the abusive patterns that are typically present in addiction.  I have read through the church abuse materials (reread it again today), most of it is relevant to child sexual abuse, there is hardly anything about emotional abuse and spouses aren’t mentioned on the list of possible abusers.  When we first got married things immediately changed and I thought I was a bad person for wanting out.  I read all the church materials I could get my hands on, and the advice was essentially "Give 100% and don't find fault".  Which is possibly good advice, unless you are dealing with an entitled abuser.  Then it is gasoline on the flames.

 

I felt my hackles rise when I heard President Nelson say the church has a zero tolerance for abuse in the October 2022 session.  I have been married for over 20 years, and separated from my husband just after our anniversary this summer. It was two decades of sexual coercion (pouting and insulting me every 48-72 hours if I didn’t initiate) and emotional abuse (blaming his behavior on me, telling me I am mean and unthankful if I called him out, etc.).  He was very controlling of my time when he was home, wasn’t OK with me spending time on myself or with friends, expected me to spend any free time with him, would follow me around the house and unlock doors, etc. When we separated he was the first counselor.  Very fortunately for both of us, he chose to go to intensive group therapy and individual counseling for abusers, and things are AMAZING now.  He says he is happier than he has ever been and he never knew that what he was running away from (responsibility for his emotions and behavior) would lead to what would be the most fulfilling.  I am actually choosing him now because he is worth choosing, not because if I don’t he will punish me.


 

Stuff leaders need to know:

 

-Physical or sexual abuse are the visual parts of an iceberg.  Emotional abuse is not a separate issue, but a less visual type of harm that has the same root of entitlement and control.

 

-Lying is abuse and causes trauma.  (see Omar Minwalla’s paper titled ‘The Secret Sexual Basement: The Traumatic Impacts of Deceptive Sexuality on the Intimate Partner and the Relationship.’).  It is possible you don’t have control over yourself around porn/gambling/substances, but you 100% can choose whether or not to lie about it after.

 

-Honesty and controlling yourself financially and sexually are minimal standards of a marriage.  If you don’t have these (or aren’t moving very steadily towards them), you can’t work on anything else and the marriage is unviable.

 

-  “God does not value men more than women, or the institution of marriage more than the people who are in it.”-  Leslie Vernick. If you prioritize preserving the marriage above the well-being of the individuals in the marriage you are enabling abuse and NOT valuing celestial marriage.  Celestial marriage is a higher standard of spouses working together and caring for each other as EQUALS.  Both.  Not the wife carrying some toddler-man around for eons.

 

-Abusers are more likely to look charming and put together than their abused spouse.  They tend to be the hand shakers that show up to all the activities. They care about appearances and power.

 

-The abused spouse tends to look like someone who has their reality dumped upside down and is told their opinion doesn’t matter on a regular basis.  Like they are JUST BARELY keeping it together.  

 

-Abusers will twist the marriage counseling process and use it as another tool to control their spouse and shift responsibility off of themselves.  Counseling the couple together is not appropriate until the abuser is in solid recovery (See Darby Strickland’s pamphlet “Domestic Abuse: Recognize, Respond, Rescue.”)

 

I am in a few groups that are for spouses of sex addicts and for women who are experiencing emotional abuse.  Over and over and over again I hear stories of bishops saying things like ‘You need to work on your trust’ or ‘You seem to be the one with the issues’ when they are married to someone who lies as easily as breathing.  If he hasn’t committed adultery or hit you for the past 3 years, then apparently the responsibility is on the wife to learn to trust, even if he continues to use porn, lie, control, blameshift, etc.  These women are already emotionally drowning and the church is causing them harm by NOT educating bishops on the patterns of abuse.  

 

One of the best choices I have made was to finally listen to myself and step away from my marriage.  If he didn’t change, I was done.  I am VERY glad he woke up and chose to change.  If he didn’t it would have been very difficult, but my kids and I would have been better off in the long run.  I believe knowledge is power and bishops will be better able to help families actually heal if they get training in recognizing the patterns of abuse.

 

Thanks for reading.

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Interesting; thanks!

Your post (understandably) focuses on emotional abuse perpetrated by husbands against their wives.  For the sake of rounding out the discussion:  what kinds of emotional abuse would you say husbands are at risk of suffering from their wives?  What indicators of female-on-male emotional abuse should church leaders be watching for, in addition to the flags you list above?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Abusive patterns are the same in women vs men, but it's way less common.

Chris Moles runs a group called "Men of Peace".  He talks about the stats in this podcast, but I don't remember what they were (10 to 1?  Something like that.  Not a unicorn, but far from the majority).  http://www.chrismoles.org/podcast/2021/5/18/episode-174-statistics-regarding-women-as-abusers

Here's some quotes from Geoff Steurr and Kim Day  (both LDS therapists).  Sorry I didn't have time to trim this down!  These are my notes "From Crisis to Connection" episode 74:

 

Min 1:08-

I think it was Steven stasney that said- 'my definition of abuse, I have a really stricted definition of it, which is that you are basically diminishing the experience of another person. You are saying to them- you are not a person. You are dehumanizing them.'

And so obviously, if that's your experience, if that's what's going on on a regular basis, that has to be confronted, or you're not going to have any relationship healing for sure. You might be able to go heal individually, but you'll do it at a safe distance from that person.

 

Min 1:10-

When there is a preponderance of power and control. When one partner is continually usurping power and control in the relationship. 

Definition- diminishing The contribution and humanity of the other, putting themselves in that primary position of usurping the power in the relationship through all number of means that we can talk about, not just physically. And this is where I think there is a misconception. Usually when we think of domestic violence we think of battered women. We think of a husband beating his wife up, or throwing her against a wall, and certainly without a doubt, those are major incidences of domestic violence.  But domestic violence itself is more often this pattern of usurping power and control in the relationship through manipulation, through coercion, through suppressing the other partner, diminishing her.  Or it can be the other way, but most often it's the husband diminishing his wife and her humanity.  I really think of it as a human rights violation. Is what is going on here. And you can see how that naturally comes out of those abusive attitudes and beliefs of entitlement and superiority "I have a right to this position or these benefits from you. Because that's my right my due, I have the right to usurp whatever means necessary to put you back in line.  And you can see that playing out it could be physically it could be sexually, it could be emotionally. There are lots of ways that that manifests.  And you can see how that's a natural outgrowth of those abusive attitudes and beliefs.

Min 1:12-. 

I think a lot of abuse victims they misdiagnosed whether they are being abused of not because of this. We see in the news very dangerous and dramatic and measurable forms of abuse, that 10 out of 10 people would agree is abuse, but then we've got these more subtle experiences that are often done privately and nobody sees. 

This is where women, and men, too,  need to be empowered, and have language to identify, that this is actually what you're feeling when you're feeling smaller and diminished and controlled and silenced and shut down.

Min 1:21

Kim Day says women are way more likely to underreact rather than overreact once they've acclimated to this abuse.  

Geoff says-

The underreacting is always the bigger concern. I rarely see women overreacting to this stuff. In fact I wish they would overreact more. Because you just get so broken down, you think it's normal.

 

Honor the humanity of the other, of the victim AND the abuser.  Normal to be angry and healthy. But essential to our healing to allow them to have their own humanity. Anytime we engage in an attitude that diminishes the humanity of someone else, then we are losing in a sense some of our own humanity.

There is a sacred space for those who recognize that what has taken place in their relationship, from their person, has been detrimental to their soul, to their humanity, to their divinity. 

Part of the way to heal is to juggle those two things. To be able to see and to name those injuries…. Healing is to be able to honor the truth of the impact of those wounds, and at the same time not falling victim, or not falling into the trap of dehumanizing the abuser and his error. Eventually coming to a place where you can see him and the wounds he is inflicting on his own soul on his own humanity, through what he's done to you. And I believe that's a very sacred space.

 

Be careful not to fall into the trap of dehumanizing that other person.  Yes, it's the higher path, and better treatment than you were given.

 

Geoff- and sometimes you do that work from a very safe distance.

Kim day- absolutely!

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Interesting; thanks!

Your post (understandably) focuses on emotional abuse perpetrated by husbands against their wives.  For the sake of rounding out the discussion:  what kinds of emotional abuse would you say husbands are at risk of suffering from their wives?  What indicators of female-on-male emotional abuse should church leaders be watching for, in addition to the flags you list above?

Amazingly, one of the biggest advocates of paying attention to male victims of abuse was a very leftwing feminist professor I had in college for just one class. Everyone here (including me) would disagree with her on 99% of issues, but to her eternal credit she had no tolerance for those who believed the rubbish that only women are victims of abuse. 

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4 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

He talks about the stats in this podcast, but I don't remember what they were (10 to 1?  Something like that.  Not a unicorn, but far from the majority).

 

Not discounting other things you have posted, but a stat of 10-1 is way off.  Somewhere between 70/30 to a 60/40 split would be more accurate (my knowledge comes from 26 years responding to domestic violence calls.)  I would lean towards 65/35.

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32 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Not discounting other things you have posted, but a stat of 10-1 is way off.  Somewhere between 70/30 to a 60/40 split would be more accurate (my knowledge comes from 26 years responding to domestic violence calls.)  I would lean towards 65/35.

I've seen other statistics reflecting what you posted.

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44 minutes ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I find it disturbing that the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

Abuse constitutes the influence of the adversary. It is a grievous sin. As President of the Church, I affirm the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ on this issue. Let me be perfectly clear: any kind of abuse of women, children, or anyone is an abomination to the Lord. He grieves and I grieve whenever anyone is harmed. He mourns and we all mourn for each person who has fallen victim to abuse of any kind. Those who perpetrate these hideous acts are not only accountable to the laws of man but will also face the wrath of Almighty God.


For decades now, the Church has taken extensive measures to protect—in particular—children from abuse. There are many aids on the Church website. I invite you to study them. These guidelines are in place to protect the innocent. I urge each of us to be alert to anyone who might be in danger of being abused and to act promptly to protect them. The Savior will not tolerate abuse, and as His disciples, neither can we.

President Nelson, Oct 2022 Conference

What is True?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/19nelson?lang=eng

 

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2 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I find it disturbing that the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

I am planning a longer response; but prefer to do so on a full keyboard rather than a smart phone (since this is a delicate topic and I want to give it the care it deserves) and I cannot access this site with my work computer.

To be very brief:  I am a lawyer practicing child welfare law.  I take domestic abuse extremely seriously.  I also recognize the horror of emotional abuse, while also being painfully aware that “emotional abuse” can be a slippery term that is often weaponized in order to delegitimize “perpetrators” or excuse the destructive behaviors of “victims” in ways that lead to unjust results as accusers cash in on the sympathy society has traditionally offered to survivors of physical, sexual, and unquestionable emotional abuse; ultimately cheapening those survivors’ experiences and sufferings.  I am also aware that in a significant minority of cases, domestic abuse by one partner (whether physical or emotional) is often a response/escalation to abusive behavior by the other partner.

I am further aware that, in certain circles of Mormonism, it has become fashionable to use terms like “abuse” or “violence” to describe a situation where the Church is doing something the speaker happens to disagree with.  And if the criticism in the OP is that the LDS Church isn’t doing enough to deal with “emotional abuse” perpetrated within LDS families—I’m not altogether sure it’s fair to attack the Church for an inadequate response to a phenomenon that I, who am supposed to deal with that phenomenon for a living (and who hold government certification to do so), am not entirely sure how to define or (in the absence of explicit victim disclosure) identify.

In light of all that, I wanted to take a little more time with your post to really make sure I understood what your position is (and what it is not) and reply in an accurate, articulate, and appropriately nuanced way; and in the interim I asked a probing question so I could better understand the breadth and scope of your position.

And to the extent that your response tries to create a power dynamic by evoking in us a sense that we should feel shame for having manifested a disturbing sense of sexism that is (presumably) outside the bounds of normal humanity:  on what basis do we, your audience, acknowledge that you are simply participating in the traditional rough-and-tumble of people with varying opinions trying to debate and negotiate over their positions, as opposed to—say—accusing you of perpetrating emotional abuse against us?

These are tough questions; they deserve thoughtful responses.  You’ve clearly done your homework.  Give us some time to do the same!

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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The church has not cornered the market on truth, righteousness or faithfulness.

If anyone is experiencing abuse I recommend reporting.

If anyone is promoting or practicing abuse - God help you.  

Yes, sin is and will be a problem.

Agree.

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19 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

...the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

SD,

I absolutely don't wish to diminish your experience in any way.  And I certainly have a place in my heart for those who have suffered from abuse.  I am feeling nothing but compassion and brotherly love towards you right now.  And it is very pleasing to me that you've found your way around these issues to a place of happiness.

My only comment thus far was about numbers.  If you stick around for a while, you'll learn that I'm a numbers guy. I can't really help it.  Any time anyone brings up numbers I have to consider statistics, facts, figures, and I start calculating.

On 5/9/2023 at 10:07 AM, schematic_dreamer said:

 but I don't remember what they were (10 to 1?  Something like that.)

I made one comment.  It was a forensic analysis of the facts.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  It was not intended in any way to diminish you as a human being or a daughter of God.  If it came off that way, I apologize.

I thought it worthwhile to balance the information because I've been an eye-witness to abuse in both directions. And it is no less wrong in one direction than the other.  Abuse is wrong no matter who is abusing whom.

Quote

...whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

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7 hours ago, schematic_dreamer said:

I find it disturbing that the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

I can understand why. It's frustrating when men, who are the problem with the world, point out that sometimes people treat them bad. They act like they don't even deserve it. Jerks.

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12 hours ago, Vort said:

I can understand why. It's frustrating when men, who are the problem with the world, point out that sometimes people treat them bad. They act like they don't even deserve it. Jerks.

100% correct 
 

It used to bother me that people viewed defending men as somehow downplaying or dismissing the horrors of domestic violence against women. But since I’ve seen that response 10,000 times for 20+ years, it has no effect on me at all anymore. Domestic violence of all types is just awful. 

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On 5/9/2023 at 3:56 PM, schematic_dreamer said:

I find it disturbing that the only comments on my post so far are to point out that men are abused as well.

We're not *that* far removed from the Johnny Depp trial. 

I actually know That Umbrella Guy from Twitter, and we've interacted in the past. Nearly a year on and Heard's sycophants are trying to have his reputation and personal life destroyed for daring to cover the trial and showing off the fact that Heard abused Depp and got the media to believe she was the victim when he pushed back. 

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1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

We're not *that* far removed from the Johnny Depp trial. 

I actually know That Umbrella Guy from Twitter, and we've interacted in the past. Nearly a year on and Heard's sycophants are trying to have his reputation and personal life destroyed for daring to cover the trial and showing off the fact that Heard abused Depp and got the media to believe she was the victim when he pushed back. 

Amazingly, Ms. Heard said the same thing to Johnny that my friend’s ex said to him. 
 

“No one will believe you.” 
 

So if anyone wants to talk about how “disturbing” some of the responses are here, let’s start with that one. 

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On 5/9/2023 at 10:24 PM, Vort said:

I can understand why. It's frustrating when men, who are the problem with the world, point out that sometimes people treat them bad. They act like they don't even deserve it. Jerks.

Indeed.... If the OP truly want to Educate about Abuse and Patterns of Abuse then they can't then get offended when we point out that 35 to 40 percent (using Mirkwoods estimates because it is hard to get solid numbers) of the victims of abuse are told that they will not be believed or that it can't happen to them. 

I mean everyone knows kids can be abused and there is nothing magic about having a Y chromosome that means after puberty you become immune to it.  Yet instead of simply acknowledging and say 'Yeap everything I said applies to men to'  The OP appears to have taken offense instead.  That tells us more about them then it tells them about us. 

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As I have read through this thread – the one thing I realize is that I personally do not understand abuse.  I do not understand the abuser nor the abused.  I am not sure if I have abused someone or if I have been abused.  I am inclined to think I have experienced both.  Adjusting to marriage has been perhaps my life’s greatest challenge.  I am driven by logic and my wife is driven by emotion.  Not a surprise that we argue from time to time.  Very often during an argument the spirit will impress on me to apologize.  I struggle with this because I believe I am logically correct.  Apologizing for being correct makes no sense.  But the spirit is strong – so I apologize.  Something interesting happens and the problem quickly disappears.  I have learned that my wife is sensitive to things I do not understand but need to respect and incorporate.

I have posted before that I have learned that if I ever become angry – regardless of the situation or how perfect my logic – that I am being guided by an unclean spirit.  I am no expert, but I am inclined to believe that if someone is angry that it is impossible for them to not be abusive.  And yet I believe it is possible to be abusive and not be angry or to become angry because one is being abused, thus creating a cycle of abuse.

I must admit to @schematic_dreamer  that I am not qualified or good at giving comfort to someone suffering from abuse.  I tend to think in terms of a solution that it logical to me and tend toward not understanding so much their circumstance.   But I am most impressed that you and your husband are working towards improving your circumstance.   Since you are achieving – I do not think I have much to add.

There is a question that I would put out to all concerning abuse.  There seems to be an attitude in generations younger than mine that to provide counselling to an individual that is on a path to obvious destruction (like pursuing pornography, or unchastity or other such activities) that such criticism is labeled as treating those involved in an abusive manner.  That when someone is obviously lying and telling them that they are lying is abusive.  It seems that anything other than accepting is labeled as being abusive.  Even if I respond to criticism of me being abusive is itself a form of abuse.   Usually, the accusation of being abusive (not supportive) is coupled with being mean and cruel.

My wife tells me that it is not so much that I am wrong or illogical as it is the manner in which I express such things; comes across as abusive or mean.  Usually I rely on my wife to deal with such things but there are times when I am on my own (like on this forum).   For those on this forum that feal that I am mean or abusive – sorry – it is not my intent.  Let me know if I have offended.  Thanks.

 

The Traveler

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I was hoping to have an interesting and challenging discussion about abuse and abuse education in the church. 

I did not mean to make this about gender. 


 

My points were:

 

-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.

-Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control.

-The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities.

-The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart.

-Abusers are making choices based on beliefs.  They don’t typically have a disorder.

-Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg.


 

I did not mean to come across as a man-hater, or like I think all men, or even a large portion of men are abusers.  I believe strongly that gender differences are eternal and happiness comes from embracing the best in our natures.  I was trying to sincerely share my own experiences and what I have learned so far and what I would like to see change.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

As I have read through this thread – the one thing I realize is that I personally do not understand abuse.  I do not understand the abuser nor the abused.  I am not sure if I have abused someone or if I have been abused.  I am inclined to think I have experienced both.  Adjusting to marriage has been perhaps my life’s greatest challenge.  I am driven by logic and my wife is driven by emotion.  Not a surprise that we argue from time to time.  Very often during an argument the spirit will impress on me to apologize.  I struggle with this because I believe I am logically correct.  Apologizing for being correct makes no sense.  But the spirit is strong – so I apologize.  Something interesting happens and the problem quickly disappears.  I have learned that my wife is sensitive to things I do not understand but need to respect and incorporate.

I have posted before that I have learned that if I ever become angry – regardless of the situation or how perfect my logic – that I am being guided by an unclean spirit.  I am no expert, but I am inclined to believe that if someone is angry that it is impossible for them to not be abusive.  And yet I believe it is possible to be abusive and not be angry or to become angry because one is being abused, thus creating a cycle of abuse.

I must admit to @schematic_dreamer  that I am not qualified or good at giving comfort to someone suffering from abuse.  I tend to think in terms of a solution that it logical to me and tend toward not understanding so much their circumstance.   But I am most impressed that you and your husband are working towards improving your circumstance.   Since you are achieving – I do not think I have much to add.

There is a question that I would put out to all concerning abuse.  There seems to be an attitude in generations younger than mine that to provide counselling to an individual that is on a path to obvious destruction (like pursuing pornography, or unchastity or other such activities) that such criticism is labeled as treating those involved in an abusive manner.  That when someone is obviously lying and telling them that they are lying is abusive.  It seems that anything other than accepting is labeled as being abusive.  Even if I respond to criticism of me being abusive is itself a form of abuse.   Usually, the accusation of being abusive (not supportive) is coupled with being mean and cruel.

My wife tells me that it is not so much that I am wrong or illogical as it is the manner in which I express such things; comes across as abusive or mean.  Usually I rely on my wife to deal with such things but there are times when I am on my own (like on this forum).   For those on this forum that feal that I am mean or abusive – sorry – it is not my intent.  Let me know if I have offended.  Thanks.

 

The Traveler

Traveler, it sounds like you are just being honest and logical.   If someone doesn't like what you have to say or you are being brusque doesn't at all mean you are being abusive IMO.  I LOVE talking to people who are open and honest-  like is too short for anything else.  I am talking about a consistent pattern of demeaning and controlling and coercing.  Attempting to control someone else's reality to make yourself feel better, which sounds like might be what happens to you when you are pointing out garbage behavior.

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33 minutes ago, schematic_dreamer said:

My points were:
-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.
-Abusers tend to be charismatic and abuse out of a belief of entitlement and control.
-The abuser is more likely to be the one who has their stuff together and to be a ‘handshaker’ that shows up to activities.
-The abused is more likely to look like they are falling apart.
-Abusers are making choices based on beliefs.  They don’t typically have a disorder.
-Physical and sexual abuse are only the visible parts of an iceberg.

I can agree to this or that extent with your last 5 points. 

I don't know how charismatic they are as a group, I'm acquainted with plenty who were anything but.  They abuse because the opportunity presented itself.   Plenty of them were abused themselves, and cycles repeat themselves, and stuff rolls downhill.  Plenty come from dysfunctional upbringings where there were no decent role models, or a lack of appropriate discipline.  Plenty suffer from various mental deficiencies, struggle with basic impulse control.  Maybe not even rising to the level of a disorder. 

I mean, absolutely I know the type you're focusing on, they absolutely are not hard to find.  But there are plenty of noncharismatic abusers who are totally socially awkward.  And plenty of victims who don't look like they're falling apart.  Endless folks like Marylin Van Derbur, who appeared to everyone as a successful and grounded woman.

 

-The church doesn’t teach or train enough about the patterns of abuse, and A LOT of harm is caused by that.

I'll strongly disagree with your claim that the church causes abuse because of a lack of training.  How do you define "enough"?  

I've interacted with an awful lot of folks over the decades who push this notion, and it's quite common to find folks who are simply never happy with any proposed reform or additional policy or program.  I'm not saying you're one of them. But I've met endless critics of the church who push their agenda by pointing at abuse in the church and saying "see - evil!".  Their minds are made up, and any evidence at all, no matter how stretched, merely reinforces their conclusions.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'll strongly disagree with your claim that the church causes abuse because of a lack of training.  How do you define "enough"?  

I've interacted with an awful lot of folks over the decades who push this notion, and it's quite common to find folks who are simply never happy with any proposed reform or additional policy or program.  I'm not saying you're one of them. But I've met endless critics of the church who push their agenda by pointing at abuse in the church and saying "see - evil!".  Their minds are made up, and any evidence at all, no matter how stretched, merely reinforces their conclusions.

Indeed..  There have been many who basically say "If you do not agree with my proposed 'fix' of a 'bad' thing. Then you support a 'bad' thing"  Abuse is one of the those bad things that people tend to do this on.

For example I have been a member of the church all my life.  In all my memory the church has taught that Abuse is a 'bad' thing and should not happen.  And if it does happen then the person that has done the abusing needed to repent.  That message came through loud and clear to me I agree with it 100%.

But I have several issues with people claiming that the church is responsible and needs to do more!!!!!  When I attempt to share these thoughts the response from these kind of people is that I am an enabler that I support abusive behavior.  And I am sorry but I am not interested in being abused in that fashion. 

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When I was a deacon and teacher, I remember hearing messages during priesthood meetings each week and during General Conference where I was really distracted by specific messages.  So much so that there were a lot of other messages that I completely missed.  What were those distracting messages?

They basically told me that men were evil and that women were holy.  After having a steady diet of this, I was so afraid of doing anything to a woman that didn't want to go on dates because I thought I was destined to sexually assault any girl I was left alone with.  I really didn't want that on my conscience.

I was one month shy of my 17th birthday before I went on my first date (yes, it was voluntary, you smurky smirks).  I met this girl at a debate tournament who took an interest in me and wasn't shy about letting me know that.  It was only then that I realized that it would be ok for me to interact with females.  I realized that I'm not destined to do anything bad to them.

Years later, as I got to doing more study of the gospel, I searched through any and all GC talks for many subjects.  It struck me... Now that I was looking for all subjects, I realized that the percentage of talks that actually addressed the treatment of the women in our lives were much less than what I felt in my mind.  But for some reason those talks really struck me as a warning more than any of the other talks I ever heard.  When I say it was less, I mean that it was not 100%.  But there were still a sufficient percentage that I find it difficult to believe that the topic was neglected.  And I'm living proof that they were stern enough and powerful enough that the need to address it was fulfilled.

But that is not something that the women of the Church would even realize was happening.  They weren't there to hear those messages.

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