Elder Oaks Tackles a Hard Hitting Question

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, old said:

Sure; neither do I.  But we all have our bounds.  You surely would not want to be working with a guy who disparages other races at work.  So let's cut the crap and realize that everyone has their bounds and that everyone has a limit as to the types of people they want to work with.

I'm not sure what your line of work is, but it must be nice to be able to be picky about the kind of work environment you're in. 

1 hour ago, old said:

Cut the elitist crap. You wouldn't want to work with some dude who talks about how he looks at porn all day and discusses his latest fantasies. You'd eventually tell him to shut up or you wouldn't work with him.

I was in the Army for 10 years. I've spent the entirety of my adult life working either in the military or in the service industry (bars/restaurants). I've worked with porn addicts, sex addicts, coke addicts, ultra-conservatives, born again Christians, LGBTQ, punks, and a couple of guys in a black metal band. I've never had the luxury of being able to simply work somewhere else because I didn't agree with my co-workers' lifestyle. Most people don't have that luxury. I don't think I'm the one being elitist in this conversation.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Godless

[old]

6 hours ago, Godless said:

I'm not sure what your line of work is, but it must be nice to be able to be picky about the kind of work environment you're in. 

I was in the Army for 10 years. I've spent the entirety of my adult life working either in the military or in the service industry (bars/restaurants). I've worked with porn addicts, sex addicts, coke addicts, ultra-conservatives, born again Christians, LGBTQ, punks, and a couple of guys in a black metal band. I've never had the luxury of being able to simply work somewhere else because I didn't agree with my co-workers' lifestyle. Most people don't have that luxury. I don't think I'm the one being elitist in this conversation.

You and I both know that service industry jobs are a dime a dozen.  And you and I both know that you have a line where the behavior and/or speech of your co-workers will drive you to pick some other place to work.

Unless you think so lowly of yourself that you view yourself as a slave with no options. In fact, the lower on the pay-scale you go, the more options you have.

Edited May 30, 2023 by old

[Guest Godless]

6 minutes ago, old said:

You and I both know that service industry jobs are a dime a dozen.  

Yes, and the entire industry runs on labor exploitation and substance abuse. And what about the military? You think I had the luxury of changing platoons because the .50 gunner in my truck was a Tea Party Republican? More importantly, do you think it mattered who my colleagues voted for or what their preferred pronouns were when we were shooting our way out of an ambush?

6 minutes ago, old said:

Unless you think so lowly of yourself that you view yourself as a slave with no options. In fact, the lower on the pay-scale you go, the more options you have.

True. And the further down the pay scale you go, the less picky employers tend to be about who they hire, so the problems you encounter at one place are likely to pop up somewhere else. You could go from a supervisor who's an alcoholic to a supervisor who's a cokehead (true story). And what if your health insurance is tied to your employment? Are you going to throw that away because one of your coworkers identifies as non-binary? In some industries, someone with your work environment standards is going to end up changing jobs a LOT. Sure, there may be a lot of options at the bottom of the pay scale, but what good is that going to do you if no one will hire you because you change jobs too much?

[pam]

*Putting my admin hat on*

This is a very sensitive topic but an important one.  While I can respect opinions from both sides of this, we need to remember to remain civil and refrain from shooting personal attacks back and forth.  

I am also going to move this to the General Discusion discussion.  

[Carborendum]

16 hours ago, Godless said:

Interestingly enough, there are people who feel this way about supervisors/coworkers who are very religious and like to broadcast it. Obviously, that's their prerogative, just as it's your prerogative to seek employment in an environment that you consider a safe space for conservative Christians.

But I'd assert that failing to look beyond rainbow stickers, pronouns, red hats, and bible quotes and approaching people as people is how this country became so socially and ideologically divided. And yes, I'm guilty of it too.

The state of things as they are, most Christians who broadcast it will not threaten to fire someone who is woke.  But they will do the necessary things to prevent LGBT exposure to children or allow males in female bathrooms (etc.).

Woke companies who find a Christian in their midst will do what they can to get them fired.  Perfect example: Hollywood.

And if it were up to me, I would fire a Christian who decides to broadcast it every two minutes.  We're operating a business.  Get the work done.  Stop being a distraction.

The thing about being noticeably trans is very distracting every single minute.  That doesn't help productivity in the office.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Carborendum

[Guest Godless]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The state of things as they are, most Christians who broadcast it will not threaten to fire someone who is woke.  But they will do the necessary things to prevent LGBT exposure to children Woke companies who find a Christian in their midst will do what they can to get them fired.  Perfect example: Hollywood.

Personally, I wouldn't use Hollywood as a benchmark for the American workforce at large. Sure, you have reactionaries on both sides trying to get people fired, mostly for dumb BS. Usually, the response is the same as the one I got from my former boss and his boss (neither of whom are what I would call liberal) when someone tried getting me fired over a cheeky but harmless Facebook post: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The thing about being noticeably trans is very distracting every single minute.  That doesn't help productivity in the office.

I've never worked in an office, so obviously my experiences will differ from yours, but I've never found someone's sexual orientation or gender identity to be a distraction at work. For that matter, I've worked with plenty of overtly Christian people who weren't what I would call distracting or disrespectful (and one or two who were).

[Carborendum]

15 minutes ago, Godless said:

Personally, I wouldn't use Hollywood as a benchmark for the American workforce at large. 

Fair enough.  But they're sure doing a good job of ridding any conservatives from government positions (like the FBI).  

15 minutes ago, Godless said:

I've never worked in an office, so obviously my experiences will differ from yours, but I've never found someone's sexual orientation or gender identity to be a distraction at work.

Not sexual orientation. 

But when someone wants to dress like a drag queen?  Yes. 
When an obviously male dressed as a woman uses the women's bathroom?  Yes.

I was once at an engineering convention.  I was just trying to get out of my row of seats to go to the lunch buffet, when I realized I was trapped because a group of women were talking in the seats. Well... one of them wasn't a woman.  And I noticed it from 20 ft away through a crowd of people.

Yes, it was a distraction.  Not because anyone was spewing hate.  Not because of political arguments.  Just his presence and appearance.

I feel like I need to remind you that I really don't care whether someone dresses or puts on makeup in an unorthodox way.  It is when they start doing things that are inappropriate (for a given situation) that deserves commentary.

A male dressing like a woman with  "loud" makeup is such a situation.  Biological males using a woman's bathroom is also.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Carborendum

[old]

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2023/6/5/23747348/we-must-find-uncommon-common-ground?fbclid=IwAR2WmhQAxRBEQYTD4T02dCsRq97pwHERtvreo2uVEhvEe4gzNJUq-MUzNFY

Fun times.

[Jamie123]

I've not read all of this thread, though I will try to catch up when I have more time.

I would just say though, it's a lot easier to "stand up for truth" when your own family are not involved.

My daughter (who I now have to call my "child") is gender-neutral, and insists on the pronoun "they". For over a year now I have complied with this, but it hasn't done me much good. I'm still the "bad old reactionary" as far as they are concerned, because they can tell I am not really happy with it, and for a long time continued to refer to them as "she".

Well, if using gender-free pronouns is selling out to the devil, all I can say is the devil doesn't give you much in return. For three weeks now they have not replied to, or even acknowledged my e-mails, and relay their requests for money to me through my (now estranged*) wife.

But even if you haven't got gender-neutrality in your family, you cannot afford to ignore pronoun-sin. You can now be sacked from your job for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. Very soon it will be criminalised.

*That's another story.

[old]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I've not read all of this thread, though I will try to catch up when I have more time.

I would just say though, it's a lot easier to "stand up for truth" when your own family are not involved.

My daughter (who I now have to call my "child") is gender-neutral, and insists on the pronoun "they". For over a year now I have complied with this, but it hasn't done me much good. I'm still the "bad old reactionary" as far as they are concerned, because they can tell I am not really happy with it, and for a long time continued to refer to them as "she".

Well, if using gender-free pronouns is selling out to the devil, all I can say is the devil doesn't give you much in return. For three weeks now they have not replied to, or even acknowledged my e-mails, and relay their requests for money to me through my (now estranged*) wife.

But even if you haven't got gender-neutrality in your family, you cannot afford to ignore pronoun-sin. You can now be sacked from your job for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. Very soon it will be criminalised.

*That's another story.

I'm pretty blunt; so please (note to MODS), none of what I say is a personal attack-I just do not know how to say things in another way and having to be cagey in what I say to avoid MODS . . .especially without body language just leads to confusion.

I truly do not understand the approach you have taken-I really do not.  I think at the root of all this child confusion is a uprooting and failure of parents.  I do not blame individual parents completely (although each raindrop contributes to the flood), however it is the permissiveness of the "parenting" culture that has lead to this disaster.

In general parents care more about being like by their kids than actually raising their kids to be proper functioning adults.  That is a fools game. A child's brain is not fully developed and given the fact that they are born into a fallen world they naturally acquire wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling. My job as a parent is to train out of them wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling and train into them right habits, right thinking, right feeling.  Literally that is the goal:

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it."

And Proverbs 22:15 states "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Now many people believe "the rod" is a physical rod but "the rod" is the Word of God. There is no where in Scripture that states "Be friends with your child in youth and he will adore you in adulthood".

A child is foolish, a child is selfish.  Literally, every child born into the world comes with selfishness ingrained into them. And that's not a bad thing.  It's how babies survive until toddlerhood. A baby needs milk; it's tummy is hungry; it can not wait; a baby doesn't say "oh mommy I know you will get me milk in just a minute when you finish this one thing you are doing", no a baby says "MILK NOW" and if that "MILK NOW" isn't answered pretty darn quickly that becomes a "MILK NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It takes years to train a child properly so that as the "MILK NOW" turns into "PLAY NOW" or "TOY NOW" or "GAME NOW" ends up being "milk please", or "may I please have xyz game" and then when the answer is no, the response is a mature "okay".  They may not like N-O, but they do not throw a fit.

And that is what is wrong with most kids these days.  They have no had a good dose of vitamin N most of their lives; they are spoiled rotten by used to getting their way every single step of the way. And then b/c they are spoiled rotten they have learned how to hold other people hostage to their insane, foolish, childish whims and desires.

And that is what this child is doing.  They are holding you hostage. They hold you hostage by saying "I will withhold the thing you desire most from me . . .my love and adoration of you, my communication with you . . .unless and until you give me what I desire from you (use the language I want you do you and give me money).

This child bluntly is nothing more than a terrorist.  And I say that with the utmost love; it's just a fact. Untrained (and sometimes sadly even well-trained children) become little (or big) terrorists.  They have learned how to extract what they want while holding the parent hostage.  They have inverted the proper parent child relationship, WITHOUT the wisdom or foresight that a parent holds.

Yes a parent will withhold things from a child as discipline, however that is done with the long-term view of a parent, the wisdom of a parent knowing "this bad action you have done child, requires you to understand that there is a bad consequence associated with it".  This terroristic child is doing the same thing to you, except without the long-term wisdom or maturity of an adult.  

For parents, the goal is to emancipate their child so that when the child is 18, etc. the parent is free from enforcing discipline on the child in the form of bad consequences.

When this is inverted for the child, the goal is never-ending.  The child will ALWAYS hold the parent hostage. If the parent acquiesces in this instant, it will be something else later on and the child will continue to hold the parent hostage to their demands in perpetuity until the parent puts a stop to it.

As a parent, the only way to put a stop to a child holding one hostage is the same way with a toddler.  A huge dose of vitamin N.  No, I will not accede to your foolish and childish demands of me to call you some insane foolish name.  No I will not give you money.  I understand that you will do your best to cut me off, use your love for me as a weapon against me to get me to give in.  You are free to do so child; my love for you is stronger than needing your affirmation of me.  When you come to your senses, I will be here with open arms waiting.

Anyways . . . my thoughts.  MODS you can ban me now, I guess . . .

[old]

This whole insane craziness reminds me of a skit I saw in Boy Scouts many, many years ago. I honestly can not believe how instructive it is 30+ years later.

So 2 boys are in the woods and one boy finds a worm.  One boy challenges the other boy to touch the worm. The one boy says no, I'm not going to touch it.  The other boy says if you do not touch it I'll hold my breath until I turn blue.  The boy holds his breath and finally when he is about to pass out the other boy touches the worm.

The one boy challenges the other to hold the worm.  The same thing happens. Then to lick the worm, then to eat the worm.  Eventually the one boy eats the worm all because the other boy said he would hold his breath until he turned blue and passed out.

I honestly would have never thought that skit 30+ years ago would have so much relevance to the world around as an adult.  Very instructive.

[Jamie123]

15 minutes ago, old said:

I'm pretty blunt; so please (note to MODS), none of what I say is a personal attack-I just do not know how to say things in another way and having to be cagey in what I say to avoid MODS . . .especially without body language just leads to confusion.

I truly do not understand the approach you have taken-I really do not.  I think at the root of all this child confusion is a uprooting and failure of parents.  I do not blame individual parents completely (although each raindrop contributes to the flood), however it is the permissiveness of the "parenting" culture that has lead to this disaster.

In general parents care more about being like by their kids than actually raising their kids to be proper functioning adults.  That is a fools game. A child's brain is not fully developed and given the fact that they are born into a fallen world they naturally acquire wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling. My job as a parent is to train out of them wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling and train into them right habits, right thinking, right feeling.  Literally that is the goal:

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it."

And Proverbs 22:15 states "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Now many people believe "the rod" is a physical rod but "the rod" is the Word of God. There is no where in Scripture that states "Be friends with your child in youth and he will adore you in adulthood".

A child is foolish, a child is selfish.  Literally, every child born into the world comes with selfishness ingrained into them. And that's not a bad thing.  It's how babies survive until toddlerhood. A baby needs milk; it's tummy is hungry; it can not wait; a baby doesn't say "oh mommy I know you will get me milk in just a minute when you finish this one thing you are doing", no a baby says "MILK NOW" and if that "MILK NOW" isn't answered pretty darn quickly that becomes a "MILK NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It takes years to train a child properly so that as the "MILK NOW" turns into "PLAY NOW" or "TOY NOW" or "GAME NOW" ends up being "milk please", or "may I please have xyz game" and then when the answer is no, the response is a mature "okay".  They may not like N-O, but they do not throw a fit.

And that is what is wrong with most kids these days.  They have no had a good dose of vitamin N most of their lives; they are spoiled rotten by used to getting their way every single step of the way. And then b/c they are spoiled rotten they have learned how to hold other people hostage to their insane, foolish, childish whims and desires.

And that is what this child is doing.  They are holding you hostage. They hold you hostage by saying "I will withhold the thing you desire most from me . . .my love and adoration of you, my communication with you . . .unless and until you give me what I desire from you (use the language I want you do you and give me money).

This child bluntly is nothing more than a terrorist.  And I say that with the utmost love; it's just a fact. Untrained (and sometimes sadly even well-trained children) become little (or big) terrorists.  They have learned how to extract what they want while holding the parent hostage.  They have inverted the proper parent child relationship, WITHOUT the wisdom or foresight that a parent holds.

Yes a parent will withhold things from a child as discipline, however that is done with the long-term view of a parent, the wisdom of a parent knowing "this bad action you have done child, requires you to understand that there is a bad consequence associated with it".  This terroristic child is doing the same thing to you, except without the long-term wisdom or maturity of an adult.  

For parents, the goal is to emancipate their child so that when the child is 18, etc. the parent is free from enforcing discipline on the child in the form of bad consequences.

When this is inverted for the child, the goal is never-ending.  The child will ALWAYS hold the parent hostage. If the parent acquiesces in this instant, it will be something else later on and the child will continue to hold the parent hostage to their demands in perpetuity until the parent puts a stop to it.

As a parent, the only way to put a stop to a child holding one hostage is the same way with a toddler.  A huge dose of vitamin N.  No, I will not accede to your foolish and childish demands of me to call you some insane foolish name.  No I will not give you money.  I understand that you will do your best to cut me off, use your love for me as a weapon against me to get me to give in.  You are free to do so child; my love for you is stronger than needing your affirmation of me.  When you come to your senses, I will be here with open arms waiting.

Anyways . . . my thoughts.  MODS you can ban me now, I guess . . .

Perhaps I'd better change my name to Neville Chamberlain...

[Jamie123]

19 minutes ago, old said:

The other boy says if you do not touch it I'll hold my breath until I turn blue.

Received wisdom says it's impossible to kill yourself by holding your breath. All that would happen is that you'd pass out, and then start breathing again.

I'm not putting this to the test though...

[old]

11 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Perhaps I'd better change my name to Neville Chamberlain...

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself.  Rome wasn't built in a day and this situation didn't happen overnight. One of the things I've learned is that when raising kids it is critically important for husband and wife to be on the same page, have the same goals, etc. And when they aren't, it most likely just leads to a huge big mess.  So given that your wife is estranged . . .there is only so much you can do. 

The only thing you can really control is your purposeful actions and interactions with your child and hope that those interactions provide a balance to whatever else is being taught.

[person0]

My wife pointed out that Mosiah 26 does an excellent job of guiding on how to handle the confusing circumstances in which we find ourselves in this day and age.  The guidance Alma received seems so plain and simple.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, old said:

I truly do not understand the approach you have taken-I really do not.  I think at the root of all this child confusion is

...

 

Anyways . . . my thoughts.  MODS you can ban me now, I guess . . .

Thank you for the reasonable tone here, @old.

As for what gets people banned, it's always good to review the forum rules here: https://thirdhour.org/forums/announcement/1-third-hour-forum-rules-please-be-familiar-with-these-rules-before-posting/

Rules 3 and 4 are what usually get folks in trouble, followed by 2.  Blunt is fine.

[Jamie123]

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

2 hours ago, old said:

I truly do not understand the approach you have taken-I really do not.  I think at the root of all this child confusion is

In the words of Basil Brush: "There's only one proper way to bring up children...and I have no idea what it is!"

[LDSGator]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I've not read all of this thread, though I will try to catch up when I have more time.

I would just say though, it's a lot easier to "stand up for truth" when your own family are not involved.

My daughter (who I now have to call my "child") is gender-neutral, and insists on the pronoun "they". For over a year now I have complied with this, but it hasn't done me much good. I'm still the "bad old reactionary" as far as they are concerned, because they can tell I am not really happy with it, and for a long time continued to refer to them as "she".

Well, if using gender-free pronouns is selling out to the devil, all I can say is the devil doesn't give you much in return. For three weeks now they have not replied to, or even acknowledged my e-mails, and relay their requests for money to me through my (now estranged*) wife.

But even if you haven't got gender-neutrality in your family, you cannot afford to ignore pronoun-sin. You can now be sacked from your job for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. Very soon it will be criminalised.

*That's another story.

I’m praying for you and your family my friend. 

[Guest Godless]

4 hours ago, old said:

I truly do not understand the approach you have taken-I really do not.  I think at the root of all this child confusion is a uprooting and failure of parents.  I do not blame individual parents completely (although each raindrop contributes to the flood), however it is the permissiveness of the "parenting" culture that has lead to this disaster.

In general parents care more about being like by their kids than actually raising their kids to be proper functioning adults.  That is a fools game. A child's brain is not fully developed and given the fact that they are born into a fallen world they naturally acquire wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling. My job as a parent is to train out of them wrong habits, wrong thinking, wrong feeling and train into them right habits, right thinking, right feeling.  Literally that is the goal:

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it."

And Proverbs 22:15 states "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Now many people believe "the rod" is a physical rod but "the rod" is the Word of God. There is no where in Scripture that states "Be friends with your child in youth and he will adore you in adulthood".

A child is foolish, a child is selfish.  Literally, every child born into the world comes with selfishness ingrained into them. And that's not a bad thing.  It's how babies survive until toddlerhood. A baby needs milk; it's tummy is hungry; it can not wait; a baby doesn't say "oh mommy I know you will get me milk in just a minute when you finish this one thing you are doing", no a baby says "MILK NOW" and if that "MILK NOW" isn't answered pretty darn quickly that becomes a "MILK NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It takes years to train a child properly so that as the "MILK NOW" turns into "PLAY NOW" or "TOY NOW" or "GAME NOW" ends up being "milk please", or "may I please have xyz game" and then when the answer is no, the response is a mature "okay".  They may not like N-O, but they do not throw a fit.

And that is what is wrong with most kids these days.  They have no had a good dose of vitamin N most of their lives; they are spoiled rotten by used to getting their way every single step of the way. And then b/c they are spoiled rotten they have learned how to hold other people hostage to their insane, foolish, childish whims and desires.

And that is what this child is doing.  They are holding you hostage. They hold you hostage by saying "I will withhold the thing you desire most from me . . .my love and adoration of you, my communication with you . . .unless and until you give me what I desire from you (use the language I want you do you and give me money).

This child bluntly is nothing more than a terrorist.  And I say that with the utmost love; it's just a fact. Untrained (and sometimes sadly even well-trained children) become little (or big) terrorists.  They have learned how to extract what they want while holding the parent hostage.  They have inverted the proper parent child relationship, WITHOUT the wisdom or foresight that a parent holds.

Yes a parent will withhold things from a child as discipline, however that is done with the long-term view of a parent, the wisdom of a parent knowing "this bad action you have done child, requires you to understand that there is a bad consequence associated with it".  This terroristic child is doing the same thing to you, except without the long-term wisdom or maturity of an adult.  

For parents, the goal is to emancipate their child so that when the child is 18, etc. the parent is free from enforcing discipline on the child in the form of bad consequences.

When this is inverted for the child, the goal is never-ending.  The child will ALWAYS hold the parent hostage. If the parent acquiesces in this instant, it will be something else later on and the child will continue to hold the parent hostage to their demands in perpetuity until the parent puts a stop to it.

As a parent, the only way to put a stop to a child holding one hostage is the same way with a toddler.  A huge dose of vitamin N.  No, I will not accede to your foolish and childish demands of me to call you some insane foolish name.  No I will not give you money.  I understand that you will do your best to cut me off, use your love for me as a weapon against me to get me to give in.  You are free to do so child; my love for you is stronger than needing your affirmation of me.  When you come to your senses, I will be here with open arms waiting.

My parents probably had this mentality when I was a teenager. 20 years later, I'm still a pot-smoking atheist listening to "devil music". I didn't grow out of my "dumb rebellious phase", and my parents eventually learned that they'd have to come to peace with that if they wanted to have a healthy relationship with me (and their grandson). And I certainly wouldn't call LGBTQ identity a "phase" (though it can be, sure). Gender identity is a bit more of a big deal than, say, getting a new piercing or dying your hair neon green. 

Younger generations don't have patience for what they view as toxic family relationships. The world today is toxic enough without blood relations trying to invalidate who you are. The days of tolerating family members just because they're family are numbered. It's not worth the therapy bills. Family are the people who love and accept you how you are, without trying to mold you into something you're not. If kids don't have that at home, they'll find it somewhere else.

FWIW, this isn't a rebuke against you, @Jamie123. I know raising kids is hard, and mine isn't even a teenager yet. We all do the best we can. I know I've made mistakes with my son and will probably make plenty more. Discipline is important, but so is respect, and the misapplication of both can have far-reaching consequences. My thoughts are with both you and your child.

[LDSGator]

14 minutes ago, Godless said:

Younger generations don't have patience for what they view as toxic family relationships. The world today is toxic enough without blood relations trying to invalidate who you are. The days of tolerating family members just because they're family are numbered. It's not worth the therapy bills. Family are the people who love and accept you how you are, without trying to mold you into something you're not. If kids don't have that at home, they'll find it somewhere else.

Do you think that’s why people our age (Gen X, millennials) are often times closer to our friends than our cousins/siblings?

[old]

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Do you think that’s why people our age (Gen X, millennials) are often times closer to our friends than our cousins/siblings?

Not a chance. It's due to distance.

[old]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

Family are the people who love and accept you how you are, without trying to mold you into something you're not.

This is false on it's face.

"Mold you into something you are not".  Yes a child comes out of the womb born with the nature to share his toys.  If a child does not want to share his toys a parent should not try to "mold the child" into something he is not (i.e. a child who shares).

Raising a child is all about molding, shaping, influencing a child.  That IS what what it means to be a parent. Children have to be trained, the have to be instructed, they have to be molded.  And any parent knows that regardless of the training, instruction, molding that a child has a mind of his own and that parenting is simply an influence.  It is a big influence but that is all it is.  A child raised in the best home can turn out like crap and a child raised in the worst home can turn out wonderfully.  

The better the home environment the more likely the child will turn out well; but it is no guarantee. Regardless, it is the parents responsibility to teach and train a child so that when the child is 18 he can be respectful, resourceful, responsibly, he can make his own way in the world, live on his own, and most importantly he has been taught a good moral character.

Parenting is all about having a long-term vision of the qualities and characteristics that you want your child to obtain.  It is aiming an arrow with a bow at a target 100 yards away and hoping to hit that target after 18 years.

For a child, being raised is the first step in a life-long pursuit of continual improvement, of refinement, of making mistakes, forgiving those mistakes, learning from them and becoming a better individual.  That is the process of life and it is all about "molding".

The "perfect as you are" nonsense has just got to go.  It is poison and it is destructive.  If one is "perfect just as one is"; then life is absolutely meaningless; no purpose, no goals to achieve, no mountains to climb, it's just blah.  And what a pitiful existence.

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Do you think that’s why people our age (Gen X, millennials) are often times closer to our friends than our cousins/siblings?

I think you and @old are both right to some extent. I'm a military brat, so I never knew my extended family very well. I have a cousin that I haven't seen since she was an infant. She just had a baby of her own. Fortunately, we're living in a time that makes the world smaller. My son has four cousins (and one on the way) in two time zones outside of ours. They video chat frequently and have a great relationship with each other.

The darker side of my family background is that I didn't have much of a relationship with my brothers and sisters (I'm the oldest of 5). Years later, my sister (#2 of 5) told me that it was because they were afraid of being nice to me. They saw the dynamic I had with my parents* and thought they had to either model it or join me in the doghouse. It made for a very lonely existence in a home that I shared with six other people, and it took over a decade and a life-shattering event to make real progress in reversing that isolation.

*To be clear, I'm not putting it all on my parents. Yes, I was a dumb teenager. Yes, I made dumb mistakes. Yes, some of my misery was my own fault. The confession from my sister absolutely gutted me though. And the worst part is, I don't blame or resent my siblings at all for it.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Godless

[LDSGator]

16 minutes ago, Godless said:

I think you and @old are both right to some extent. I'm a military brat, so I never knew my extended family very well. I have a cousin that I haven't seen since she was an infant. She just had a baby of her own. Fortunately, we're living in a time that makes the world smaller. My son has four cousins (and one on the way) in two time zones outside of ours. They video chat frequently and have a great relationship with each other.

The darker side of my family relationship is that I didn't have much of a relationship with my brothers and sisters (I'm the oldest of 5). Years later, my sister (#2 of 5) told me that it was because they were afraid of being nice to me. They saw the dynamic I had with my parents* and thought they had to either model it or join me in the doghouse. It made for a very lonely existence in a home that I shared with six other people, and it took over a decade and a life-shattering event to make real progress in reversing that isolation.

*To be clear, I'm not putting it all on my parents. Yes, I was a dumb teenager. Yes, I made dumb mistakes. Yes, some of my misery was my own fault. The confession from my sister absolutely gutted me though. And the worst part is, I don't blame or resent my siblings at all for it.

Understand totally. I don’t disagree, I think distance absolutely plays a part. I’m also super close to my sister, brother in law and parents. So my thoughts on the matter don’t apply to me personally. 
 

Having said all that, I do think that people our age tend to from stronger bonds with our friends than in years past. Part of it is because of communication-I can text my family in China and Minnesota 24/7, so the world is much smaller than before. That couldn’t happen in the past. 
 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by LDSGator

[Guest Godless]

56 minutes ago, old said:

It's not a rebuke against Jamie, but it is against me.  I very much dislike your passive aggressive nature.  You passive aggressively state that the way that I raise my children is toxic, anyone who does likewise is toxic and that this "toxic" raising will lead to therapy bills and kids won't "tolerate" that.

You talk about "respect", yet that respect only goes one way, a parent must respect a child, the child (in your worldview) does not need to respect the parent.  Yours is fundamentally a rebellious attitude, one that cannot and will not sustain itself long-term.  A child respecting a parent is one that adheres to the lifestyle that has been taught to them; one that follows the rules, one that is obedient to the mores and value system given to them.  You demand that parents respect children, yet do not demand the child respect the parent.  You have flipped the very fundamental basis of how civilizations and cultures survive and thrive long-term on it's head.

Instilling your values in your child is one thing. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. How you respond if those values don't stick is another matter. You can bring the hammer down and maybe they'll snap out of it. Or maybe they'll spend a significant portion of their adult life resenting you for it. I've seen the latter play out many times, not just in my own personal experience. 

56 minutes ago, old said:

Including in the insanity is the absolute nutty notion that ones friends and the therapist love you more than your parents.  What an insane concept.  I can understand why this silly notion is promoted and taken seriously by children these days.

The sad reality is that yes, in some cases, queer kids literally don't get love at home, just abuse masquerading as "tough love". As I said, I don’t believe in being a 100% permissive parent. Discipline has a place in the home. But it has to come from a true place of love, and sometimes that means taking a step back and letting kids work through the consequences of their choices.

56 minutes ago, old said:

You claim the "days are numbered", yet you have no idea of what you speak.  30 years ago no kid ever was "trans" . . .today it is common-place. 

That's not true at all. It was less commonplace, sure. And it was also less visible because we didn't have the internet giving us an eternal window to the entire world. People who think that trans and other LGBTQ lifestyles are so much more commonplace now forget that it used to be a lot harder for us to see outside of our bubbles. And as bad as anti-LGBTQ bigotry is now, it used to be a lot worse. There's still work to do to make LGBTQ folks feel safe in our society, but we've come a long way in 30 years. Gay/trans people feel safer now than they ever did in the past, so they're making themselves more visible than they used to be. But a lot of them have been around for years, hiding their true selves out of concern for their safety.