Elder Oaks Tackles a Hard Hitting Question


person0
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18 minutes ago, person0 said:

Usually, the pronouns being replaced such as 'he' or 'she' come up when speaking about someone, not when speaking to them.  As such, I would imagine it would be far simpler to refer to people using only their name, especially in an environment with so many students in and out each semester.

I don't understand how it is respectful to validate an individual's false perception of themselves.  Seems to me that if we truly respect someone, we would be honest with them, though we may be tactful.  Using someone's name should accomplish both.

Would you be punished for using their name only?  If the answer is yes, I would prayerfully consider seeking out a new employer.

It is not respectful.  It is the simply the easy way out.  Everyone knows that if you say anything against the rainbow velvet glove, the rainbow iron fist will pummel you to death.

I just had a recent experience; I was told several months ago I'd be getting a new supervisor.  I was evaluating this person personally to see what kind of a supervisor they were.  Well, in the course of that personal evaluation, I came to find out this person is an LGBTQ+ ally, goes to drag shows, has rainbow sticker on her laptop.  I already had several other reasons I was looking, but nothing too egregious; this put it over the top.  I found another job, making more money, with less crap.  I told my current company why I was leaving and listed this crap as one of the reasons.

"Hey guys, I really don't want to go to a work lunch and have my boss talk about how there are multiple genders, or talk about the drag show she attended over the weekend, I'm out".  Lots of talks came afterwards trying to convince me to stay . . .nope.  You guys choose a supervisor that is some left-wing woke person AND broadcasts it (I wouldn't care if she didn't broadcast it); I'm out.

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21 minutes ago, old said:

This is why the Left, the LBTQ+, etc. win the war.  They convinced a whole bunch of people that it was better to be "nice and kind" than to stand up for truth and not give into delusional thinking.

"even if I feel they are wrong choices".  You are saying it is better to be quite and never tell someone they are wrong then to speak up, tell them they are crazy and then take the hit for saying they are wrong.

I am NOT suggesting go looking for a fight, what I am saying is that if the fight comes to you, standing up and being counted is much better than groveling on your knees.

In my position...at this time...probably.  It is probably better to respect their decision if I want to continue teaching and researching. 

Once a repertoire has been created between them and I, then I might be able to explain how my opinion is on certain things, but with respect and gentleness rather than forcefulness.  If nothing else, perhaps they will consider my position with respect instead of calling out the clarions for me to be fired immediately.

It is probably because I am weak in regards to the things of the world and overly worldly in my desire to have worldly things (such as a house, a car, food, and other such things).

For the bold, obviously it is probably better to proclaim repentence and rely on the Lord (much as they did in the ancient scriptures), but I still lack the faith in that regards to go all out and make the sacrifices necessary I suppose. 

I'm not sure that boldness to that degree is the right path today for most of the young people who are in this situation or dealing with others in this situation.  They seem to be overly hostile to those who may approach them boldly.  If they know you and that you respect them and their ideas, sometimes they MIGHT (and yes, that is a MIGHT) respect yours.  It depends on the student (or teacher, or professor, or administrator). 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Just now, JohnsonJones said:

In my position...at this time...probably.  It is probably better to respect their decision if I want to continue teaching and researching. 

Once a repertoire has been created between them and I, then I might be able to explain how my opinion is on certain things, but with respect and gentleness rather than forcefulness.  If nothing else, perhaps they will consider my position with respect instead of calling out the clarions for me to be fired immediately.

It is probably because I am weak in regards to the things of the world and overly worldly in my desire to have worldly things (such as a house, a car, food, and other such things).

For the bold, obviously it is probably better to proclaim repentence and rely on the Lord (much as they did in the ancient scriptures), but I still lack the faith in that regards to go all out and make the sacrifices necessary I suppose. 

I'm not sure that is the right path today for most of the young people who are in this situation or dealing with others in this situation.  They seem to be overly hostile to those who may approach them boldly.  If they know you and that you respect them and their ideas, sometimes they MIGHT (and yes, that is a MIGHT) respect yours.  It depends on the student (or teacher, or professor, or administrator). 

I completely understand what you are saying and I sympathize with it.  However, this is how we got to the point where we are today.  Christians who simply forgot the heritage of Christianity (i.e. being mocked, scorned, killed, martyred, thrown out, etc. for refusing to bend the knee). 

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4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In my position...at this time...probably.  It is probably better to respect their decision if I want to continue teaching and researching. 

I understand this reasoning.  This is the age-old question.  "Whom do ye serve? God or Mammon?"

Serving Mammon (i.e. I need to shut up so I can have a job, put food on the table, live my comfortable life) or serving God (I will not give into things that I know are against God and I will take consequences whatever they may be).

I ain't saying it's easy; what I am saying is at some point every Christian will have to face this test in one form or another; am I faithful to what I profess to believe, or do I reject Christ like Peter?

The glory of Christ is that just like Peter, even if we reject Him-there is always the opportunity to repent and stand firm.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

In my position...at this time...probably.  It is probably better to respect their decision if I want to continue teaching and researching. 

If I leave Satan's employ, what will become of me? A worthwhile question, but one best approached with faith and courage, I think.

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Just now, Grunt said:

I’m looking for a new job currently, partially for these reasons.  I have the faith, but sometimes I don’t feel that courageous.  

One has to develop a very good radar and intuition these days.  You can't quite go into an interview and ask "Is your company woke?".  So you have to find questions to ask that draw that stuff out-look for keywords, look on linkedIn, look at the people they employ.  Do their LinkedIn employees put their pronouns in their bios?  It requires a good bit of research.

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Guest Godless
2 hours ago, old said:

"Hey guys, I really don't want to go to a work lunch and have my boss talk about how there are multiple genders, or talk about the drag show she attended over the weekend, I'm out".  Lots of talks came afterwards trying to convince me to stay . . .nope.  You guys choose a supervisor that is some left-wing woke person AND broadcasts it (I wouldn't care if she didn't broadcast it); I'm out.

Interestingly enough, there are people who feel this way about supervisors/coworkers who are very religious and like to broadcast it. Obviously, that's their prerogative, just as it's your prerogative to seek employment in an environment that you consider a safe space for conservative Christians.

But I'd assert that failing to look beyond rainbow stickers, pronouns, red hats, and bible quotes and approaching people as people is how this country became so socially and ideologically divided. And yes, I'm guilty of it too.

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3 minutes ago, Godless said:

Interestingly enough, there are people who feel this way about supervisors/coworkers who are very religious and like to broadcast it. Obviously, that's their prerogative, just as it's your prerogative to seek employment in an environment that you consider a safe space for conservative Christians.

But I'd assert that failing to look beyond rainbow stickers, pronouns, red hats, and bible quotes and approaching people as people is how this country became so socially and ideologically divided. And yes, I'm guilty of it too.

Nah.  The whole "bring your whole self to work" BS has helped fuel the divided nation.  I don't appreciate broadcasting very religious things at work either.  Work is for work.

And I won't use the term "safe space"; it's called being around people who are like you.  I don't want to be around people who parade their rainbowness or alliness of rainbowness.  I don't need a "safe space" from them; I ain't 5.  I simple do not want to be around them-period.  Just as much as I'm sure they do not want to be around some uber-christian.

That's cool.  Let's just be adults about it instead of using some BS words like "safe space".  You don't want to be around me; I don't want to be around you-so let's be mature adults and not be around each other.  Problem solved.

The flaw is the thinking that we MUST be together.  No we do not.  It's socially and ideologically divided b/c some things simply cannot co-exist together, the sooner people realize that instead of trying to force it all together the easier peaceful and happy solutions can emerge.  Anything else will just cause anger, resentment, bitterness, and a whole lot of problems.

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19 minutes ago, old said:

One has to develop a very good radar and intuition these days.  You can't quite go into an interview and ask "Is your company woke?".  So you have to find questions to ask that draw that stuff out-look for keywords, look on linkedIn, look at the people they employ.  Do their LinkedIn employees put their pronouns in their bios?  It requires a good bit of research.

Ask to read the policy manual.  If they say "no", I'm suspicious of the company.  If they say "yes", I've got a good idea how they approach things I'm interested in.  In theory, this also tells them you're serious about where you work.

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Guest Godless
1 hour ago, old said:

Nah.  The whole "bring your whole self to work" BS has helped fuel the divided nation.  I don't appreciate broadcasting very religious things at work either.  Work is for work.

You do you I guess, but this is a pretty bleak outlook, imo. If I'm going to spend 30-40 hours a week toiling to make someone else wealthy, the least I can do is try to enjoy my time with the people toiling with me. That means getting to know them on some level. 

1 hour ago, old said:

And I won't use the term "safe space"; it's called being around people who are like you.  I don't want to be around people who parade their rainbowness or alliness of rainbowness.  I don't need a "safe space" from them; I ain't 5.  I simple do not want to be around them-period.  Just as much as I'm sure they do not want to be around some uber-christian.

That's cool.  Let's just be adults about it instead of using some BS words like "safe space".  You don't want to be around me; I don't want to be around you-so let's be mature adults and not be around each other.  Problem solved.

This is both bleak AND unrealistic for a lot of people. I lived in Texas for 13 years. One of our more conservative forum members lives in the Seattle area. A lot of people, in some aspect of their lives or another, end up interacting with folks with ideological differences. Sometimes it's by choice (like me posting on an LDS website), but more often it's out of necessity. True echo chambers only exist on the internet, and I don't believe that echo chambers are necessarily a good thing. I have no desire to be surrounded exclusively by people who 100% agree with me on everything. That sounds incredibly dull and intellectually damaging.

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

Interestingly enough, there are people who feel this way about supervisors/coworkers who are very religious and like to broadcast it. Obviously, that's their prerogative, just as it's your prerogative to seek employment in an environment that you consider a safe space for conservative Christians.

Maybe there are regional differences.  But my understanding is that in many areas of the country (including Utah, as I understand it), a supervisor broadcasting his religious beliefs would be understood as “creating a hostile work environment” and would be shut down in fairly short order—and could be subject to regulatory and civil liability if he didn’t.

People who disagree with me bringing their “whole selves” to work, wouldn’t be nearly as much of a sore spot if the people who agree with me hadn’t already been warned on pain of firing, public shaming, and/or lawsuit to keep their mouths shut.

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27 minutes ago, Godless said:

True echo chambers only exist on the internet, and I don't believe that echo chambers are necessarily a good thing. I have no desire to be surrounded exclusively by people who 100% agree with me on everything. That sounds incredibly dull and intellectually damaging

I totally agree. If you are so frightened by other lifestyles/viewpoints that you choose to live in an echo chamber that’s fine. You do you. But it’s 1) unrealistic and 2) a little silly for a grown up to live like that. Are you that afraid of everyone else? Yikes. 
 

Again though, the Amish and Hasidic (sp?) Jews tend to do that. It’s their life, they seem happy. However I assume they are much smaller populations*. If the LDS church wants to grow, I’m not sure how the members can avoid some interaction with the outside world. 

*two seconds of Google shows me that Hasidic Jews number 1.8 million and Amish about 360,000. I could be wrong. 

Edited by LDSGator
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7 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

If you are so frightened by other lifestyles/viewpoints that you choose to live in an echo chamber that’s fine. You do you.

It is you who are silly for thinking that it is "fright".  It is the mid-wit mind that simply cannot conceive of the following: some people simply do not want to deal with other people's BS.  That is a far cry from "fright" or "afraid".

Edited by old
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1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

i can totally live with that. Lol. 

Maybe learn to have a little more respect for the way other people choose to live their life instead of looking down on everyone who does not have the same "metropolitian" viewpoint as yourself. Saying things such as:

"But it’s 1) unrealistic and 2) a little silly for a grown up to live like that. Are you that afraid of everyone else? Yikes." Demonstrates an extreme self-centeredness about how anyone who does not want to live this metropolitian lifestyle is a fool.

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2 minutes ago, old said:

is the mid-wit mind that simply cannot conceive of the following: some people simply do not want to deal with other people's BS.  That is a far cry from "fright" or "afraid".

And that right-insulting my intelligence-is priceless.
 

Fight on tough guy. You are too intimidating for me. 

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12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Maybe there are regional differences.  But my understanding is that in many areas of the country (including Utah, as I understand it), a supervisor broadcasting his religious beliefs would be understood as “creating a hostile work environment” and would be shut down in fairly short order—and could be subject to regulatory and civil liability if he didn’t.

People who disagree with me bringing their “whole selves” to work, wouldn’t be nearly as much of a sore spot if the people who agree with me hadn’t already been warned on pain of firing, public shaming, and/or lawsuit to keep their mouths shut.

Exactly.  But a supervisor talking about going to drag shows . . .nope that's totally cool.

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Just now, LDSGator said:

And that right-insulting my intelligence-is priceless.
 

Fight on tough guy. You are too intimidating for me. 

You are the one who likes to think of everyone else who does not want to deal with the woke BS as being "afraid".  I think you are telling on yourself.

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1 minute ago, old said:

Maybe learn to have a little more respect for the way other people choose to live their life instead of looking down on everyone who does not have the same "metropolitian" viewpoint as yourself. Saying things such as:

Wrong. I have great resect for people who disagree with me. Far more than you clearly do because I have good friends from across the spectrum. 

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35 minutes ago, Godless said:

I have no desire to be surrounded exclusively by people who 100% agree with me on everything. That sounds incredibly dull and intellectually damaging.

Sure; neither do I.  But we all have our bounds.  You surely would not want to be working with a guy who disparages other races at work.  So let's cut the crap and realize that everyone has their bounds and that everyone has a limit as to the types of people they want to work with.

Cut the elitist crap. You wouldn't want to work with some dude who talks about how he looks at porn all day and discusses his latest fantasies. You'd eventually tell him to shut up or you wouldn't work with him.

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4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Wrong. I have great resect for people who disagree with me. Far more than you clearly do because I have good friends from across the spectrum. 

Then don't belittle others by calling others who don't want to deal with LGBTQ+ wokism at work as "afraid". That would go a long way to having respect . . .b/c clearly you don't have respect for others who don't want to deal with wokism at work.

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5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Wrong. I have great resect for people who disagree with me. Far more than you clearly do because I have good friends from across the spectrum. 

Yes, you can get together with your friends and laugh at all right-wingers who are "afraid" and "scared" of the left. But not you b/c you have friends across the spectrum so you are so much better than those who don't have good friends on the left b/c the only reason they don't have friends (like you) is b/c they are "afraid" and "scared".  

That's a nice story to tell yourself. Except it ain't true.

Some people just do not want to deal with it and you show your lack of respect for others by not acknowledging that fact.

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