Not even the angels


laronius
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If you want something kept secret, tell no one.  Perhaps even the angels in heaven are capable of slacking in their duties when they think there's plenty of time to get them done...

I think the virtue of never wasting a moment (which is not the same as never resting) might be the very last one we learn (finish learning).  And in the opposite, waste is likely the first bad habit we develop.

Edited by zil2
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1 hour ago, laronius said:

JS Matt 24: 40 But of that day, and hour, no one knoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

What's the point of not even the angels in heaven knowing? 

Some time ago I talked to a Jewish Rabbi concerning this and his response to me was that this is a very poor translation of an ancient Jewish saying.  I have posted this before but it was some time ago so I will post it again.

The ancient new year for Israel was according to covenant and specific signs from “heaven”.  The first sign in heaven was what we now call the spring equinox.  The second sign was a new moon.  After the signs were given, the new year would begin on the next Sabbath.  Officially there were experts in Israel that would watch for and verify before a judge that they had seen the signs.  The judge would then declare the next Sabbath as the beginning of the new year.  These signs also became part of Passover and the official celebrations.  This is also why Easter does not fall on the same Sunday each year.

However, sometimes the weather would not cooperate, and clouds could hide the sun and moon enough that it was impossible to directly see the signs of heaven.  When such was the case and there were questions concerning when the new year would begin – the answer to the question was, “No man knows not even the angles of heaven”.

In reality experts that understood the progressions of things knew in advance when the equinox and the new moon would occur.  Rather than argue or speculate such things they would testify before the judge and Israel would celebrate the new year without anyone directly seeing the signs in the clouds. 

I find peace in this understanding.  That in the last days there will be clouds of doubt, deceptions and distractions – so much so that it will be impossible from a worldly view to directly validate the sign of the coming of Christ – only those that are “expert” in keeping covenants and following the directions of the holy Spirit.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, laronius said:

JS Matt 24: 40 But of that day, and hour, no one knoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

What's the point of not even the angels in heaven knowing? 

I think its worth keeping in mind that the way this verse has been worded, and as corrected by Joseph Smith, it leaves entirely open the possibility that everyone in heaven might know the week, month and year, but not the day or the hour. 

It's also worth keeping in mind Luke 8:17

17 For nothing is asecret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I think its worth keeping in mind that the way this verse has been worded, and as corrected by Joseph Smith, it leaves entirely open the possibility that everyone in heaven might know the week, month and year, but not the day or the hour. 

It's also worth keeping in mind Luke 8:17

17 For nothing is asecret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Please share Joesph Smith's correction (I'm not finding it in JS-Matthew 1). Thank you!

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10 hours ago, zil2 said:

If you want something kept secret, tell no one.  Perhaps even the angels in heaven are capable of slacking in their duties when they think there's plenty of time to get them done...

I think the virtue of never wasting a moment (which is not the same as never resting) might be the very last one we learn (finish learning).  And in the opposite, waste is likely the first bad habit we develop.

In thinking about what is accomplished by not knowing, namely our true selves are exposed, thus making judgement easier, I wonder what the impact the Second Coming has in the spirit world. On earth it is a sort of initial judgement where the wicked are destroyed, thus ending any further opportunity to "work out their salvation." It makes me wonder if the Second Coming is also a deadline of sorts in the spirit world. We know from various individual's dreams/visions that the work in the spirit world is one of haste, as if waiting for the Millennium to get it done was not an option. 

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2 minutes ago, laronius said:

In thinking about what is accomplished by not knowing, namely our true selves are exposed, thus making judgement easier, I wonder what the impact the Second Coming has in the spirit world. On earth it is a sort of initial judgement where the wicked are destroyed, thus ending any further opportunity to "work out their salvation." It makes me wonder if the Second Coming is also a deadline of sorts in the spirit world. We know from various individual's dreams/visions that the work in the spirit world is one of haste, as if waiting for the Millennium to get it done was not an option. 

The righteous will be resurrected beginning at the Second Coming, so yeah, lots of urgency there.  I imagine any in prison who accept the gospel and repent would only be awaiting their temple work and then resurrection, so I think it would be a big impact all around.  Only the dead who refuse to repent would continue on as if nothing has changed (I assume, sort of).

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29 minutes ago, laronius said:

In thinking about what is accomplished by not knowing, namely our true selves are exposed, thus making judgement easier, I wonder what the impact the Second Coming has in the spirit world. On earth it is a sort of initial judgement where the wicked are destroyed, thus ending any further opportunity to "work out their salvation." It makes me wonder if the Second Coming is also a deadline of sorts in the spirit world. We know from various individual's dreams/visions that the work in the spirit world is one of haste, as if waiting for the Millennium to get it done was not an option. 

For several years, my dad was a sergeant major at one of the bases where the United States military provides basic training to new recruits. 

As part of it, these recruits would often be assigned to post guard duty in order to get them used to it. This would be on top of their regular training and other assignments. 

As part of that, my dad and the other non-commissioned officers (NCOs) would have to go around and periodically ensure that the soldiers assigned to guard duty were awake and alert. Many recruits, being recruits, did not maintain a fully professional bearing while on guard duty, and so the NCOs were able to take them by surprise. In a real situation, this would likely mean serious consequences for those recruits and the people they were supposed to be guarding, if not death, and so the NCOs made it a point to impress upon them the importance of constant vigilance. 

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9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think its worth keeping in mind that the way this verse has been worded, and as corrected by Joseph Smith, it leaves entirely open the possibility that everyone in heaven might know the week, month and year, but not the day or the hour. 

It's also worth keeping in mind Luke 8:17

17 For nothing is asecret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

My apologies, the original post refers to JS Matt 24:40 so I assumed that that was a reference to Joseph Smith Matthew 24:40. The verse quoted in the original post comes from Joseph Smith - Matthew 1: 40, which is worded identically to Matthew 24:40. As both sets of words are the same, it appears that Joseph Smith did not make any changes to it. As they are, both sets of words, being identical, leave open the possibility that all sorts of beings know everything about the timing of the second coming except the day and the hour.   

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On 5/26/2023 at 10:07 AM, askandanswer said:

I think its worth keeping in mind that the way this verse has been worded, and as corrected by Joseph Smith, it leaves entirely open the possibility that everyone in heaven might know the week, month and year, but not the day or the hour. 

It's also worth keeping in mind Luke 8:17

17 For nothing is asecret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

As long as we employ an international date line and time zones there cannot be a correct hour or day that would be universally accurate in modern times, especially with the utilization of electronic emissions for communication of things happining.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

As long as we employ an international date line and time zones there cannot be a correct hour or day that would be universally accurate in modern times, especially with the utilization of electronic emissions for communication of things happining.

I asked ChatGPT why the speed of light was so excruciatingly slow. The AI firmly corrected me by insisting that the speed of light was not at all slow, and was in fact unbelievably fast. It took a bit of back and forth before I could convince ChatGPT to concede that c might indeed be considered slow, though it would not actually grant the point outright.

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19 hours ago, Vort said:

I asked ChatGPT why the speed of light was so excruciatingly slow. The AI firmly corrected me by insisting that the speed of light was not at all slow, and was in fact unbelievably fast. It took a bit of back and forth before I could convince ChatGPT to concede that c might indeed be considered slow, though it would not actually grant the point outright.

ChatGPT is that annoying kid in your fifth grade class who always raises his hand and smugly thinks he knows the answer and whom the adults all treat as some kind of wunderkind—but whom the rest of the class realizes doesn’t know nearly as much as he thinks he knows and is effectively useless in most real-life situations.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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