Julie B. Beck and her Talk "Mothers Who Know"

[KingDavid]

I posted what I did about having children, because from what I have observed, it seems that, apparently, a good many Latter-Day Saints do not think that having many children is either do-able, desirable, or convenient.

I am not, by this, advocating that ALL in a family cannot have a "good life" in this world and also have hope for a glorious resurrection in the world to come. However, again, I reiterate, the Lord blesses us (or curses us) according to our desires.

Conventional wisdom sweeps the saints. And they don't seem to realize that, truly, the "wisdom of the wise" shall perish. (In other words, ultimately, "conventional wisdom", or the wisdom of men - meaning both "men" and "women"), or "earthly wisdom" will be shown to be wrong.

My family struggles with getting and keeping our home clean, neat and orderly. However, while I use to get more upset about it before any of our children left home, and tried all kinds of things to try to help us to get there -- including taking on chores myself -- I have found that to some extent individuals get what they desire, also, in some areas. And, because of what they desire in some areas, they don't get what they may desire (but to a lesser extent) in other areas.

In the past couple of months, I have found for the (now) five remaining children at home, the thing that has helped the most in getting them to help is to charge them rent on a daily basis, based upon their earning ability. My 7-year old is assessed 25¢ per day her room is not clean. It's $1 per day for my 12-year old son. $2 per day for my 14-year old daughter. $4 per day for my 17-year old daughter. And $10 per day for my 27-year old son.

I also clean along with everyone else. And I do what I can to keep our bedroom clean. I have made my own bed (or side of it) for close to a decade-and-a-half (often, its the only bed or part of bed that is made in the whole house). I often will make my wife's side of the bed too. (I state the details, not for accolades. But just to give specifics of what gets done).

When most of our children were younger, it was generally harder to get the house clean, simply because little children are far more efficient at messing up a house than at helping to clean it.

I have found that my wife has a personality where she desires to please. Part of that trait also means that she doesn't like to displease, so she is far more likely to do things herself (rather than get the children to help her) than I am. She concentrates much on her cooking and sewing, which she is good at and receives much praise for from various factions. She cleans a lot. But she is more likely to concentrate on areas she's good at than on cleaning. Little praise comes for cleaning, because it is more just expected, by anyone, and by most everyone.

It also means that she doesn't get on our children as hard, anywhere near as often as I may. I try not to be onery with them. I try to simply and as pleasantly as possible ask them to clean messes up I've known they've made, or to simply do some task to help clean a portion of our house at certain times. My wife's father was a farmer, and she disdained the harshness which he would sometimes use to get his children to perform. So she is much more likely to not chide or discipline children, until she finally can take it no more, and "blows up" on them.

Part of the mess is due to the fact that my wonderful wife (and I sincerely mean that), has too much fabric she's bought on sale over the years. We have about 4 laundry baskets full of it in our living room, that she does not have room to store in some 25-30 stackable storage bins we've accumulated over the years to store her fabric in. A year-and-a-half or so I pleaded with her to buy no more fabric until she had used up a "chunk" of what we already had.

Part of the problem also is found in the blessing promised for those who pay their tithing (I believe)—

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse....and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

(Old Testament | Malachi 3:10)

As I understand it, if you try to get and stay out of debt AND pay your tithing, you will not go out and max out the size of house you could buy, because you are paying your tithing, and getting/staying out of debt, etc. So, because you do that, the blessings you receive will be more than you have storage space for!!! Anyway, that's what I've observed in my tiny little world! (LOL)!!

My mother kept a neat and clean home. She was also neurotic. I loved and love my deceased mother so dearly.

My wife gets a bit neurotic now and then. But nothing like my mother did!

I consider what we are doing as part of sacrificing for something BIGGER in the world/s to come.

Nobody I know of does better than my lovely and wonderful wife does in shopping, in cooking, and in sewing. She and I and our children like to have fun. We have our shortcomings. But we try to improve incrementally, and try not to get hung up about what's not perfect in our home or in our lives.

We read the scriptures as a family. December 20, 2007, we finally finished reading the Bible as a family. It took us close to six full years, reading half-an-hour to an hour most every Sunday afternoon or evening, and occasionally on other days.

We had finished reading the Book of Mormon before that. Our two youngest children learned to read by reading the Bible with us. We're working on going through the Pearl of Great Price, first, and then we'll read the Doctrine & Covenants. And afterwards, we'll start on the Book of Mormon again.

I find that bigger families are better (at least for me) in many ways. Children have siblings to be friends with. And they do, in our family. Cousins, aunts & uncles, etc are great! NOT counting our own children, OUR children have slightly over 90 first cousins, between my side and my wife's side of the family between both them.

We've found that, especially when the first 2 or 3 go right, it has generally been easier for us, "so far", to get and keep the others "going right" also. But none of us are, as Elder Holland put it once, "safely dead" yet!

There is much more variety in our family with more children. More variety in looks, sizes, personalities. It helps to make life funner, and far less boring. That doesn't mean it doesn't get hectic and sometimes even extremely difficult. But, I believe and hope that it is and will be, indeed, worth it!

We have just two grandchildren so far. One daughter is due again within the month. The other got pregnant (they were trying really hard to space things) just a month after delivering her first child. Potentially, their first two children could be in the same grade of school together (being born, likely, just 10 months apart)! But, like us, though not everything (if anything) goes (or comes) as planned—we try to make the best of the portion the Lord has given us!

—KingDavid

[Argentina84]

It annoyed me. The sentiment was good in a way, but to me she came across as saying you can only be fulfilled as a woman as a wife and mother. For those who are not married or mothers and want to be, this is very insensitive. Being a wife and Mother is not the only way a woman can be fulfilled. I am only going on this from memory, so I cant remember specifically what she said but I remember thinking it was the usual, 'stay home and reproduce' talk just dressed up a bit.

I was very sensitive at the time, feeling very lonely, and sister Beck's talk hurt me even more then . Now I understand that she is calling for good mothers and wives.And that's what I want to be above everything else. I think her talk was for married women, and sometimes it would be good to receive some councel as a single 23-year-old young woman, who dreams of raising a family, and often feels frustrated and looks for professional and personal realizations in order to avoid feeling a failure.

That's my opinion. Thanks for the thread.

Kind regards!

Argentina84

[KingDavid]

I was very sensitive at the time, feeling very lonely, and sister Beck's talk hurt me even more then . Now I understand that she is calling for good mothers and wives.And that's what I want to be above everything else. I think her talk was for married women, and sometimes it would be good to receive some councel as a single 23-year-old young woman, who dreams of raising a family, and often feels frustrated and looks for professional and personal realizations in order to avoid feeling a failure.

That's my opinion. Thanks for the thread.

Kind regards!

Argentina84

Argentina84,

As a father of seven daughters, and two sons, I can very much appreciate your sentiments. I have watched and tried to help my children do what they can and should so that they might taste of the happiness of marriage and having one's own family. My son, 27, is returning from Idaho this morning, as he went to date a girl he met on-line. I have a daughter, age 21, who seems to have a hard time getting boys to ask her on a date.

I am not saying don't pursue professional or other paths, per se. But I have seen how "careerism" has become, even and especially among so many Latter-Day Saint youths and 'not-so-youngs' as an alternative to getting married and having a family.

My youngest sister became a mining engineer, and then acquired an MBA. She is 41, and still unmarried. I think the 'careerism' pushed away possible marriage prospects.

But I understand how being single with no apparent prospects has its great and difficult problems. I didn't marry myself until age 26. I felt old then, but realize now I was still quite young. Several sisters did not marry until 23 to 25 years of age.

Do what you can to encourage good LDS young men to date you. That's much easier said than done. Sometimes, when the "good LDS young men" never or seldom ask girls out, one wonders how many or few there are of that genre.

Doing what you can to be positive, optimistic, and enjoyable to be around is good. My brother has three girls, two who may never marry, in part to the "sour grapes" one use to often hear them spewing (from my sister-in-law, their mother) about young men and how they never got asked. One needs to try to figure a way of prompting and positioning prospects to succeed with you in a relationship. Again, I know, far easier said than done.

Even when I was "in the driver's seat", as one supposes young men to be, how hard it was to meet and get young women who one would want to marry to go on dates with you. If the issue wasn't alcohol, I could see how a bunch of LDS bars might help young singles. Institute and young adult wards, etc, seem to be the best places to possibly meet other young singles who might qualify for and merit your attention and interest.

My mother chewed me out two major times when I was a young adult for "being too picky" in whom I dated, and for not asking someone to marry me. She told me that I was "avoiding responsibility" and she reminded me how many children my father had by the time he was the age I was at then (grandchildren, per se, weren't a problem. I had five older siblings who were all married and had children. However, I was the only son to have any male offspring. Hence, the only one who could provide someone to carry on the family name). My bride was 19 (and I 26) when we married. Nine children and a mortgage paid off later, I beat my parents in both number of children (they had eight) and the time I had them in (I had eight children at a younger age overall than my Dad did)!! Not that it's a contest (like I told the judge, "No contest!") But, it helps assuage one's conscience to know that I was not a slackard in that regard.

Finding the right person and marrying them the right way in the House of the Lord should still be your quest, hopefully. There are lot's of young men out there. They need to be persuaded to leave their computers and video games. I'm doing all I can to get my son off of his computer (I recently imposed a twice a week night (Tuesdays and Fridays) when he cannot get on his computer after 6:00pm. It seems to be helping a little!

May God bless you and help you in finding a worthy mate to marry!

—King David

[Argentina84]

Thanks a lot, KingDavid!

There are lot's of young men out there. They need to be persuaded to leave their computers and video games. I'm doing all I can to get my son off of his computer (I recently imposed a twice a week night (Tuesdays and Fridays) when he cannot get on his computer after 6:00pm. It seems to be helping a little!

May God bless you and help you in finding a worthy mate to marry!—King David

hahaha Yeah, we have a hard time with computers and videogames (and soccer matches)

down here too! It's almost impossible for a girl to compete with a football (or is it soccer ball in the USA?) and not to be beaten by it!

Kind regards!

[Elgama]

Thanks a lot, KingDavid!

hahaha Yeah, we have a hard time with computers and videogames (and soccer matches)

down here too! It's almost impossible for a girl to compete with a football (or is it soccer ball in the USA?) and not to be beaten by it!

Kind regards!

if my husband had left his computer he would never have got married lol

-Charley

[KingDavid]

Argentina84,

Tu parles le francais? Dis donc! C'est marron, ca!

[KingDavid]

if my husband had left his computer he would never have got married lol

-Charley

Am I suppose that you two met on-line?

My son just returned yesterday from dating a girl at BYU-Idaho he met on YouTube. It didn't work out as he wanted! C'est la vie, parfois!

I am not suggesting one necessarily leave their computer completely! Just enough to socialize in real life with real people. Our life on computers is more vicarious. There can be many obstacles (scriptures would call them 'stumblingblocks') to finding the right person and then marrying them. Satan would have us substitute most any thing in lieu of what we should at a given age or stage in life.

I feel that it is important to socialize and date "as early" as one can (outsie of my wife, my best friend married after his mission, but when his bride was but 15--which is a bit young). They didn't have children at all until she was in her twenties. However, socially, mentally, emotionally, she is somewhat still a 15-year old in many respects. Six children later, to be sure, she has grown in many respects, but in other respects, she will never completely 'grow up'!

I was 26 and my wife 19 when we married. Emotionally we were about the same 'age' at that time. Two or three periods in our marriage, I have felt the difference much more accutely than at other times. But, by-and-large, in so many respects, we are both "on the same page" currently.

I will confess that my children have raised me as much (if not more) than I "raised" them. Also, my father's death four years ago made me (finally) an "orphan". It has helped me to mature further, not having the previous generation to fall back on. But, even at age 54, in so many ways, I am still trying to "grow up". Don't know if I'll arrive completely before I die. Hope to. Working to.

From Proverbs we have..."To every season, there is a time for every purpose under heaven." One's youth is, as much as one can influence it, the time to mix, mingle, socialize, date, and hopefully, find one with whom one can feel appropriately "matched"

We feel both pressure from others, as well as applying to ourselves by ourselves.

As much as possible, while doing all one can and should do to get married in the years when one is in their twenties, hopefully, in their 'early 20's', if one can somehow, somewhat succeed at being cheerfully slightly detached, and patient with themself, others and the process, while "gaming" it wisely best they can to their advantage or to personal success in meeting and marrying the "right person", I would encourage those in that time period, and approaching it, or even 'after it', if they have not yet married, to try to be as 'hopefully and cheerfully optimistic' ('full of faith') regarding themself and others, they can, I believe, greatly increase and enhance their chances of 'personal success' in meeting and marrying the 'right person' for eternity.

I have seen and or known some who settled for less. Girls, both those who served missions, and others who didn't, and guys too, who 'gave up hope', and settle for something far less than they should have or 'had to' (in my opinion, at least), and either 'married' a non-member, an apostate, or got themselves into homosexual relationships, that it caused me, and I'm sure, their family and friends, (and ultimately themselves) great sorrow, pain, and disappointment.

One of the things about 'enduring to the end' includes 'NOT being 'Overcome' by the world'. The Lord, in the scriptures, repeatedly encourages us to 'overcome the world' and not to be 'overcome' by it. When one loses hope, of finding a worthy spouse, too many, too often, settle for 'second best', or far worse, even. And some 'get there' (seem to have a good, even a 'very good' spouse), and then "blow it". We have a sister in our ward who, apparently, for a second time (at least), seems to have cheated on her husband, and is in the process of divorce, and going for a guy who is best described as a 'pirate' type. Wow! I've seen so many "trade down" (way down) in the spouse (or 'significant other') they go for!

That is why it is so important to do all in your power to try to find the best possible mate for yourself, and to marry them properly! (In the Temple, of course). But doing ALL of the things leading to that in personal preparation is most important. Becoming the kind of person you can and should be, is every bit (if not much more) important than finding 'Mr or Miss 'RIGHT''!

And, by this, I do not mean a 'dry, disapproving and dour and sour', overly demanding and overly critical sourpuss!' The world has far too many of those already.

And, for those who are 'more intelligent' than average, it can be especially hard, to reconcile their expectations with their ability to keep an even keel in their minds, emotions, and life!

But, I believe, just as we have to persuade, entice, encourage, and help along others to get them to go and do what we want them to do, we have to do this ALSO with ourSELVES! Getting and keeping 'down' on ourselves is a problem most people have, to some extent or another, in their life. I've often and sometimes for a VERY LONG time had that problem with myself.

We need to both expect a lot of ourselves AND be forgiving and to even 'encourage' ourself and find ways to 'entice' one's self to do that which is right. Self-incrimination, and recrimination, going over and over and over not only the mistakes we have made, but make DAILY, does little if any good in helping ourselves!

Making the best choices one can, getting up and 'doing' that which we should 'best we can', and mentally 'rewarding' ourselves in our own minds, giving ourselves at least some kudos for where we improve, even if ever so gradually, is important. Finding and being with others who help to bring out the best in us, if one can find them, is most helpful. By working at finding and bringing out the best in others, and recognizing the best in others, while doing all one can and should to keep the commandments of God, especially regarding chastity and language, can help us find others who will bring the best out from and in us.

[crytsprospect]

I have enjoyed reading this lively disscussion. I loved the talk. I am far from the ideal but well it gives me goals. We aren't suppose to do more than we are able. Its my goal to be able to do more. Young Mothers are in a stage in there lives it will pass they will have more time and feel better about it. As a Mother of 7 I can only say be kind to yourself. Some young mothers have formed a play group to meet during the week. Nothing says we can't socialize outside church. There is a time for everything. We are so luckey for the freedoms we have. The talk just raised the bar I will work towards that goal as it applies to me. I love a good challenge

[NateHowe]

As with many things, the problem does not come from the existence of computers or video games or any specific technology - the problem comes when children (and adults) consume these media in excess. As parents, we need to turn off the TV and talk to our kids. This is corroborated in brain research as well as the teachings of Church leaders. And it's not just for mothers - fathers also need to take responsibility in this issue.

[Elgama]

Am I suppose that you two met on-line?

My son just returned yesterday from dating a girl at BYU-Idaho he met on YouTube. It didn't work out as he wanted! C'est la vie, parfois!

I am not suggesting one necessarily leave their computer completely! Just enough to socialize in real life with real people. Our life on computers is more vicarious. There can be even a 'very good' spouse), and then "blow it". We have a sister in our ward who, apparently, for a second time (at least), seems to have cheated on her husband, and is in the process of divorce, and going for a guy who is best described as a 'pirate' type. Wow! I've seen so many "trade down" (way down) in the spouse (or 'significant other') they go for!

Thus.

Yes we met online and our marriage is a good one - my husband is a good, strong beautiful man who didn't realise that until we met, he would never have asked me to dance and not sure he would have been my type if we had met first in person, he is about a foot shorter than men I usually dated and younger than me, but he was an RM with long hair and a beard which I love on a man (and it was before President Hinckley's YSA fireside after which he shaved). My husband works with computers and most of his off time is spent online - I do joke if he was to cheat on me she would need to have a plug or an engine.

I didn't date much at all - I personally believe the best marriages are between two people who are good friends who don't mind the idea of sleeping together, and I chose my husband because he is such an amazing man - love came later. I was happy being single and I love being married both states have their merits in life so although I had dates they were more with good friends than boyfriends - I have never had my heartbroken and would happily spend time with any of them if I met them today. I would not advocate my children date at all if they didn't want to I don't feel its necessary - my husband and I got engaged 3 days after meeting in real life we just needed to make sure we hadn't lied to each other online. I feel messenger is a really good way to date your potential spouse we did more talking and knew each other brilliantly before we met and before we married in a way we would never have talked had we met in real life, that and 5 years never being apart (husband was unemployed due to immigration, then he worked from home) - has given us a solid foundation not many couples have,

I will be teaching my children to decide in their head who they are looking for then let their heart get involved,

-Charley

[Argentina84]

Argentina84,

Tu parles le francais? Dis donc! C'est marron, ca!

J'adore le langue franÇais, mais je ne parle pas tres bien.

Au revoir!

[Cassandra]

To King David:

It was interesting to me what you said about your younger sister, the engineer/MBA. Most LDS women I know pursuing advanced studies (there certainly aren't many) are haunted by that dilemma. Will it intimidate men? Dry up the dating pool? Am I choosing selfish pursuits over what's most important? Answers: yes, yes, and well, that's between me and the Lord and requires daily re-evaluation.

On the other hand, I would kind of despise myself if, finding myself unpursued and without immediate prospects, I had settled for a job that was easy for me instead of going for my full potential. If I'd married early everything would have been different, but the way my life has gone, I'd never have forgiven myself if I hadn't seized the opportunity presented to me to go to law school. And to wonder if maybe I'd quit with just the bachelor's would I be married by now is a fool's errand.

Blaming women for living life at the top of their lungs as best they know how is dangerous, even though in some cases it's almost certainly deserved. But it's hard to tell which cases those are. Sheri Dew said in a talk that a woman once came up to her and said "aren't you sorry you chose a career over marriage?" That's a mighty big judgment to make on mighty slim information.

That said, I completely and utterly agree with you that more needs to be done to deprogram young women from the world's "career first, then look around for marriage when you're thirty" script. Sister Beck's talk was a brilliant attempt on that front.

[WANDERER]

Choosing a career over marriage....that shouldn't be seen as a choice. You may find yourself in the cirumstance of not being married and happening to have a career. The two are not inter-related. I don't think I've seen a t-shirt version of, "I can't. I have a career."

Perhaps when the law was that women had to retire should they marry that may have been the situation (not that many decades ago). Considering that many people over a certain age bracket were affected by this, it does continue on to some degree in people's attitudes. I would say that the reasons for not being married are individual rather than generic.

[KingDavid]

As with many things, the problem does not come from the existence of computers or video games or any specific technology - the problem comes when children (and adults) consume these media in excess. As parents, we need to turn off the TV and talk to our kids. This is corroborated in brain research as well as the teachings of Church leaders. And it's not just for mothers - fathers also need to take responsibility in this issue.

Agreed. But as one who was addicted to TV as a child, sometimes one needs intervention. Life intervened for me, by-and-large. Necessity is sometimes the mother of self-discipline.

As I understand Bill Marriott has pointed out, one can't really set goals for results or dictate results. We can only manage activities. But activities (and/or the lack of them) lead (or don't) to certain results.

I'm happy that Elgama met an apparently perfect match for her in a spouse on-line. I think, though, most of us need to develop relationships in-person.

And, NateHowe, I haven't said that computers or video games or TV themselves are evil. But, if I wanted to get young men and women to do what they should, I would find a way to incapacitate them (computers, TVs, video games, & yes, also, cell phones). That leads me to what I think may be a prophecy regarding an EMP caused by a nuclear attack. That will not only get young men & women off-line, it will get them searching for food (if not love) together (I suppose). The fulfillment could happen anytime. But I kinduv think within the next five to ten years is most likely.

[Elgama]

Agreed. But as one who was addicted to TV as a child,

I'm happy that Elgama met an apparently perfect match for her in a spouse on-line. I think, though, most of us need to develop relationships in-person.

I am certainly not alone meeting my spouse online - and for many church members its the best way to meet other church members especially in an area where the choice of spouse is small. I have made great relationships with people online that have then translated into real life.

-Charley

[KingDavid]

I am certainly not alone meeting my spouse online - and for many church members its the best way to meet other church members especially in an area where the choice of spouse is small. I have made great relationships with people online that have then translated into real life.

-Charley

I didn't say that you were. And where choices of spouses, especially good, active, testimony having/keeping/building Church members, on-line stuff can be a boon. However, you have to understand that I see a lot of people doing or trying to do stuff on-line that can be done both more effectively and more efficiently in many, if not most, cases, in person.

I object to attempts of finding love on-line when opportunities for doing so in person are more available. Trust me, I've heard how hard it is to do things now as they were done for me in the 1970's as a teenager and young adult. But trust me, again, I know a lot of what the differences between now and then are, and they are not that significant.

I've come to appreciate that the difference between things in my parents' generation and mine are no where near as great as they are in my imagination. In reality, they weren't that different, per se. Likewise between my generation and my grandparents'. With much more media, that causes more "noise". E-mail and chat rooms can offer more opportunities, as well as texting, messenger programs, etc.

However, the one or few dimensions of media connections between individuals and in-person interaction are HUGE! So much more CAN happen in closer physical proximity, in communicating many things that don't work as well in what words in print can convey.

That said, I certainly appreciate the written word. I've done a lot in the past decade on-line. My writing or expressions skills have increased immensely. And I can do better in many ways in print than I can in person. I can often revise before I send. Writing is a most wondrous thing.

Again, that said, doing things with others in person has tremendous advantages in so many respects, it could take me a book to explain them. There are a thousand nuances that you can ascertain in-person that are impossible on-line. These nuances offer clues to all parties about all other parties as to the "what" of each other. And the "whats" add up to the "who" we choose to marry, eventually.

I am not "dissing" on-line stuff in the least. But, if you knew what I have seen, where a son has spent so much of the time since his mission on line, in front of either a cathode ray tube or an lcd screen, instead of being in front of others, to see them, for them to see him, for both to interact in real time AND IN REAL SPACE! The last is something online interactions will really NEVER allow.

On-line interactions HAVE THEIR PLACE. But they, ultimately, canNOT and should NOT take the place of face-to-face, you're here and I'm here type of getting to know one another.

Its much like reading the scriptures. They're great. They're terrific! But, to "gaze into heaven for five minutes", one can learn so much in a "face-to-face" with God or angels, as to make decades reading scriptures insignificant. So it is with checking others out, and having them check you out, AND DEVELOPING the ability to interact IN REAL TIME and in REAL SPACE with others of the opposite sex. MUCH OF THAT FOR MANY is MUCH NEEDED!!!

[Elgama]

I didn't say that you were. And where choices of spouses, especially good, active, testimony having/keeping/building Church members, on-line stuff can be a boon. However, you have to understand that I see a lot of people doing or trying to do stuff on-line that can be done both more effectively and more efficiently in many, if not most, cases, in person.

Generationally I am much older than my age - because of the age of my parents and grandparents I am between my own generation and a couple before, I think both have their place but don't agree meeting in person is all that much more effective in fact I think more can be achieved by 'dating' online than dating in real life. You don't need to dress up and people who don't have a lot of confidence get to show their true potential. You are also usually through the shy stage before you meet and don't waste time together. You have to talk constantly which means as long as both parties are honest you learn huge amounts about each other.

Can it go pear-shaped - of course it can but so can meeting someone in a dance. How many people date someone then swear they changed after they got married?

-Charley

[KingDavid]

J'adore le langue franÇais, mais je ne parle pas tres bien.

Au revoir!

Moi non plus!

Mais je l'aime quand meme!

[KingDavid]

I would kind of despise myself if, finding myself unpursued and without immediate prospects, I had settled for a job that was easy for me instead of going for my full potential. If I'd married early everything would have been different, but the way my life has gone, I'd never have forgiven myself if I hadn't seized the opportunity presented to me to go to law school. And to wonder if maybe I'd quit with just the bachelor's would I be married by now is a fool's errand.

Blaming women for living life at the top of their lungs as best they know how is dangerous, even though in some cases it's almost certainly deserved. But it's hard to tell which cases those are. Sheri Dew said in a talk that a woman once came up to her and said "aren't you sorry you chose a career over marriage?" That's a mighty big judgment to make on mighty slim information.

That said, I completely and utterly agree with you that more needs to be done to deprogram young women from the world's "career first, then look around for marriage when you're thirty" script. Sister Beck's talk was a brilliant attempt on that front.

When I married at age 26 (which then I thought was "old", but wasn't, necessarily), I knew I had done my homework. I had dated as much as time and opportunity permitted. I was no Cassanova. But I got out and tried to find the woman of my dreams.

And, while I was looking for her, I dated a number of girls who told me they wanted to go on missions. The woman I married told me she wanted to do that too (her mother did). But I could tell that, given the right opportunity, she might be persuaded otherwise.

Again, I go back to what I said about being rewarded according to our desires. One of my nephews married a couple of years ago at age 29 or 30. He got his bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering at the "U". Then got his Master's in Mechanical Engineering and MBA at the "Y". He dated some during the many years after his mission through all of that university work. He's a nice, fun-loving man, who is smart, considerate, and thoughtful. He dated some girls he was quite interested in. But he sooner or later gave up on them, because they were "career girls". They wanted to be a business executive, or nurse, or whatever, more than they wanted to be a plain jane ordinary vanilla "mom". And, besides going for a "sexy wildcat", like I got in my wife, I too was looking for a girl who wanted to have children. Not just a couple. But, Lord willing, perhaps even up to a dozen or so. (We got to 9, and that seems pretty good).

And, it wasn't just "volume" I was going for. Numbers are easy to come up with. Actually doing it, is the hard part. But, like I told the judge, its "no contest"! But, I valued parents and great-grandparents who went the "distance" for me. And, I figured, we'd become better parents with more practice (which, if one truly tries, is true). And, part of the "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" I/we figured came with keeping the commandments—including the first, which is to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth. It also expresses in lifestyle and service the commandment to "love thy neighbor as thyself". With around an estimated 50,000,000 early terminations of pregnancies in the U.S. since Roe v Wade in 1974, "thy neighbor" might be nearer than most people suppose. And, we figured, kicking them out prematurely after they are conceived isn't the only "un-neighborly" behavior the God who prefers to be called a father sees. Not "suffering the little children to come unto (us)" is one of the sins I think we practice almost as much in the Church as those do outside of it. Whether its the pill, the patch, or the procedure (take your pick-- tubal ligation or vasectomy), the ill-will, and selfish centeredness, and the "wisdom of the world" will sooner or later be shown to be foolishness. And, whether its keeping the career one has been trained for, or being a part-time parent, as we pay off student loans we acquired while "get(ting) all the school (we) can get" necessitates it, the final effect and result are so often the same.

"What do you want to be when you 'grow up'?" is a question asked often of every school girl. I've taught my seven daughters to think, and truly want, and to say, "I want to be a mother in Zion, thank you!" And to pursue that first, foremost, and forever! Satan likes to make the whole thing an either/or proposition. That is why 'Survivor' and all of the so-called "reality" shows are so popular. They convey the Corihor/Shiz scenario. If I win, you lose. If you win, I lose. But that is NOT "reality", in an eternal sense–only if you subscribe to demonic decision-making.

Pharaoh figured it was "us" or "them" when he commanded the children of Israel to be killed. That Satan-inspired idea was given to the King of Egypt to try to rid the world of a baby—Moses.

In the Book of Jasher, an apocryphal work, it tells how signs appeared in the heavens on the night of Abram's (later to be Abraham) birht. The astrologers knew what they meant. They knew that it portended well for Terah's son. They told King Nimrod. And Nimrod, inspired by the same spirit Pharoah would be centuries later, tried to get Abram killed. Terah brought him the child of a maid servant to make him (Nimrod) think he had killed his own son. The book of Abraham tells us that Terah later did indeed conspire with a pagan priest to try to take Abram's life again. The Lord's angel forestalled that sacrifice.

Herod, the 'not so' Great, was also inspired from below, rather than from above, when he killed the hundreds or thousands trying to "get" Jesus. Flight into Egypt eluded that evil design on an important baby's life. But which baby ISN'T important? Which baby ISN'T wanted?

Anything Satan can do to reduce or eliminate babies fits into his plan most fiendishly. If he can get women, even and especially "good" LDS ones to pursue a career more than a husband, and hence a family, he will. While these good sisters meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they sacrifice forever families for telestial treasures. And they accomplish the same end result that Satan seeks, without him having to turn to tyrants or terrors.

If he can get couples to marry later rather than sooner (in their later 20's, 30's or 40's) rather than (generally) in their early 20's, they'll likely have fewer children. If he can get them to stop earlier than they need to, so as to not be burdened with children too much into their forties, great (for Satan and self-'Saints')! Subcontract the "train up a child in the way he should go" part to daycares and preschools, as well as leaving children at home, alone, after school, because both parents are serving mammon rather than raising the heritage of the Lord (which children are), and many will get lost to drink, drugs, immorality and even worse.

In the last few years, I've witnessed close friends and neighbors where the mother worked outside of the home most of the years they had children in the home, where two of their four children were lost to suicide. I remember the mother saying years ago, "I can't wait until they are out of the home." She viewed them and they felt and knew it, as more of a bother than a blessing. More as a hindrance than a help. Such losses are so difficult to retrieve!

Life is hard enough, with trying to persuade a potential spouse what is, and what is not important. If its a career and cash and kudos she seems to be after, I'm after someone else. And, true as you said, it is or can be something that scares or chases boys away.

I can't have babies. Only women can. If they can have babies AND provide for themselves, what do they need me for? As a sperm donor? That's how some women now view it.

Are you preparing for IF you get divorced or WHEN you get divorced, by all the schooling and all the career preparation? If you self-actualize, then how can two be one? If you are self-sufficient, I won't go toward you, because then you are implying that I'm deficient. I've seen and felt and known male bashing since the early seventies (and before)! And I see even more subtle forms of diminishing the role of fathers in families.

Do I make a difference in my family as more than just a sperm donor? Do I do more than merely put food on the table and a roof overhead? You bet. I teach and prepare my children best I can for life after leaving home. I teach them the scriptures, and from the scriptures, and we read the scriptures as a family every Sunday evening. It took us 4-1/2 years, but we got through the Bible on December 20, 2007. We reading the Pearl of Great Price, and are going through the wonderful Book of Abraham now. Once we finish that, we reading the Book of Mormon again (it will be close to five years since we did so AS A WHOLE FAMILY). Some of us have read it otherwise since then. Any and all of my children know the scriptures and understand them better than most anyone I know.

(see next post for the rest)

[KingDavid]

(Continued)

But if I was 20-something again, and looking for a wife, I would not avoid a woman pursuing a college or advanced degree, per se. But she better be one to show me that she's willing and ready to drop all of that at a moment's notice to do something that is VASTLY FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT!!! And that is to start a truly ETERNAL FAMILY. Godhood and Kolob don't begin when we die. It starts in the House of the Lord at the altar. Of course, preparations to get two individuals ready for that begin before birth! But if I expect to receive the blessings that Abraham received, I better be ready to do the works of Abraham. And again, I think that there is some equivalent between having one baby at age 90 and 100 (Sarah & Abraham respectively), and having 9 children (or as many as the Lord will bless a couple with) at 20, 30 & 40-something.

If you are smart, and want to learn, even want to do work. Great! But I sure hope that if you want to be my daughter-in-law, you can and will want to do that work mostly at home, with my grandchildren in your home, your arms, and in your heart!

I'll have my grandchildren over, even watch them for their parents now and then. But neither I, nor their grandmother, nor someone else should raise my grandchildren for my children and their spouses. They MUST do that themselves. And THAT work, dear young sister, is FAR more important than ANYTHING you could or would do or want to do outside of the home.

Cassandra, you appear to be a beautiful and bright future bride for some fortunate and faithful fellow. Gee, I'd even like to line you up with my 27-year old son, if you'd let me. But I'd hope that home is where YOUR heart is—for I have found that, truly, where your heart is, there is your treasure also.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that bright girls scare guys away as much as girls who are disinterested in having children, staying home with them, and raising them to be as smart and as faithful as their fathers and mothers are! My mother was brilliant, but also humble. And while my father got a 4-year degree in Mining Engineering, my mother never stepped in a college classroom. And yet, this son, who "modestly" claims and feigns to be the brightest of his parents eight children, was taught priceless and precious things by a mother who was an avaricious reader. And much of what she taught was not just what she learned by reading, but what she learned and knew by observing, pondering and praying.

All of what President Hinckley would tell us about "get all the education you can" needs to be viewed in the context of God's commandments. God knows better than even President Hinckley what will make us happy. And the eternal cycle of getting married and having children is key to ALL that we discuss in the gospel.

We will receive according to our desires, either to our eternal exaltation, or to a devilish damnation. Money and honors one cannot take with them. Knowledge, we can. But also, when men are learned, they think they are wise, and they hearken not to the counsels of God, supposing that they know of themselves. But to be learned is good, if one hearkens to the counsels of God!

[WANDERER]

If we receive according to our desires and are blessed according to them then,

I had to have an income...most people do.

I worked hard to qualify for entrance to an educational facility without having to pay fees. Should I have tried less? Become a burden to others?

I chose a job not according to what course I could get into or potential high income or educational status, but quality of life and matching my goals. Teaching, what a blessing kids are...it's a job that aligns with family values. Work one day a week if you like or take many years off to raise your family or don't go back and raise your family instead...who cares?

It just hasn't happened.

Does having a better income or education complicate my prospects. Does it create dating friction. Yes. (I'm from a different location, so the income from it is fine).

Would I love to be a SAHM. YES!

Does it hurt looking after children and pouring your heart into a job when the scenario is that you won't have the opportunity to do any of that for your own children that you just aren't going to have? YES.

Have I neglected to work on myself? I'm open to blaming myself. Bottomless topic.

Things are bad enough without having to feel worse than I already do on the topic. But for the record, I am not anti-marriage, career-obsessed, money-obsessed or whatever.

How do I handle it? By living the life that God has given me as best I can. By not being bitter or miserable about it. By accepting the blessing there is.

Do I need pressure, encouragement or whatever? No. Believe me, I'm quite capable of doing that on my own without assistance and an increase isn't needed. I'd rather people respected my status and showed a little understanding and didn't make it harder. Some assumptions are, "No guy is safe around you, married or otherwise." Really? Obviously they have been for many years LOL. I'd say, "Totally."

What do I do when people apologise?

You're not married. Sorry.

Do I answer, "I try not to be."

We do the best with what we are given and I have found peace of a sort with it,but it was a hard enough journey.

But how great, how absolutely fantastic, the exultation my life is already without is just going to upgrade in my afterlife.

[crytsprospect]

You sound like you so have it together and if marriage an motherhood dosen't come in this life it will. You are promised that. Don't be so hard on yourself. I"ve read your posts and you are AWESOME in my book . I'm a mom of 7 but am entering a different phase in my life their all almost gone and I am going to start back to school. I can't imagine no kids at home ..... ok for a couple of hours great but NO KIDS what will I do ? Well I am planning my no kids home strategy and school is a big part. I love coming here and reading all the posts. I learn something every day! and thats so cool

[teacherdani]

As a woman who has not yet joined the church, I must admit that I was VERY intimidated by that talk and I constantly find myself wondering if I can be that woman who knows. I find myself striving for that now- which has really blessed our lives. When I was younger I would have called her an anti-feminist, but now I see the importance in her comments. I was and continue to be blessed by women who share the beauty and responsibility of motherhood. I'm tired of the world seeing motherhood as your "second job" and not successful. Even though I'm not a stay at home mom I KNOW that family comes first.

[Guest Leeanntheonetwo]

One day I hope to have children this I know. So I must be a mother to be that knows. lol, all seriousnesses aside, I love the very thought of family and everything that goes with it.

Leeann

[Aphrodite]

But she better be one to show me that she's willing and ready to drop all of that at a moment's notice to do something that is VASTLY FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT!!! And that is to start a truly ETERNAL FAMILY.

SHE better SHOW YOU she's willing to abandon any hopes of her own choice just to pro-create with you????? And what do YOU have to do to SHOW HER that her life and dreams are just as important as yours??? You speak as if she's some maid who has to please you. If my husband said to me, you'd better be ready to drop your career to prove to me Im more important I'd have given him a slap and probably filed for divorce!! There are dinosaurs in the church after all.