Negative income tax

[SMG]

The poor should be educated and made productive and paid a proper wage.

Good luck with that, what with all the decent paying jobs being downsized, sent overseas and whatnot.

Also, lots of rich companies seem to exploit "loop holes" in the tax codes to avoid paying much in the way of taxes. Instead, the MIDDLE CLASS bears the lion's share of the burden when it comes to tax funds.

I don't object to my tax dollars being spent on social services. What I DO object to is my tax dollars being spent on "Pork Barrel" and other corruption crap. For an example, to my embarrassment, read up about Conrad Burns, the former Senator from Montana. The corruption in Washington, DC has made me and other 20 somethings very very apathetic to cynical regarding politics.

[cjcampbell]

Good luck with that, what with all the decent paying jobs being downsized, sent overseas and whatnot.

Also, lots of rich companies seem to exploit "loop holes" in the tax codes to avoid paying much in the way of taxes. Instead, the MIDDLE CLASS bears the lion's share of the burden when it comes to tax funds.

I don't object to my tax dollars being spent on social services. What I DO object to is my tax dollars being spent on "Pork Barrel" and other corruption crap. For an example, to my embarrassment, read up about Conrad Burns, the former Senator from Montana. The corruption in Washington, DC has made me and other 20 somethings very very apathetic to cynical regarding politics.

As a 20-something you might learn to be little more skeptical of political rhetoric. I would bet that you have no idea what those "decent paying jobs being downsized, sent overseas and whatnot" are or were. Political candidates in Michigan can talk about "bringing jobs back to Michigan" but they know that those jobs are not coming back, no matter what anyone does. There are no more brakemen in the cabooses of trains. No more buggy whip manufacturers. No more lines of men threading nuts onto bolts. Overseas or anywhere else. Nor can there be.

There are critical shortages of people in almost every modern career field. We are producing less than half the pilots and airplane mechanics we need. The accounting firms are screaming for qualified people. The health care industry is approaching total breakdown from the lack of qualified people to serve it. And so it goes in every industry in America. Yep, the manufacturing jobs are mostly gone, and good riddance. Most people don't have to spend their days picking cotton and peas, or harvesting wheat, or herding cattle any more, either. Our needs have changed, and the job market along with them. I am sorry, but if all you know or want to do is to solder this resistor onto that circuit board exactly the same way every time, your job is gone. Where is it said that people have a God-given right to be paid for doing things that no one needs them to do any more?

You also probably have no idea what loopholes there are in the tax codes. Owners of corporations pay double taxes, or did you not know that? Their corporations have to pay taxes, and then the owners (many of them widows and children) have to pay taxes again when they take money out of the corporation. No other kind of business has to do that. I would be very interested in your pointing out these supposed loopholes. I am a CPA, and I will be darned if I can find all these loopholes the politicians keep ranting about.

Interesting, isn't it, that Presidential candidates (every one of them) can go on and on about tax breaks for people they don't like, but they never name any of these tax breaks, nor do they bother to mention how they did not do anything about any of these tax breaks in all the years they served in Congress or the Senate or as governor or whatever. In fact, every one of the Presidential candidates has a record of raising taxes. Every one of them has voted in favor of the supposed pork barrel projects you say you don't like. But they all say they are against these things.

Federal Income Taxes are not the bulk of taxes anyway. Four out of five adult Americans hardly pay any at all! They get a refund of everything that was withheld from them. So what was that about the middle class paying the bulk of taxes? Just how do you define "middle class" in a classless society anyway? Most people in the "middle class" in America hope someday to be rich. Even you might have such aspirations, young as you are. :) "Middle class" is as arbitrary as the government poverty line. It is even more subject to political manipulation and rhetoric than the definition of what is "poor" in this country.

Here is a fact: politicians want you focused on income taxes because you don't pay very much in income taxes. It makes it easier to hide all the other taxes that you do pay, such as Social Security, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, electricity taxes, phone taxes, taxes on your clothes, taxes on your toothbrush, taxes on your TV, etc. There are no loopholes in any of those taxes. The rich pay them as well as the poor. Arguably, the rich pay more of them because they consume more.

Ask any business owner how much he or she remits to federal, state and local governments. It will be more than the net payroll and any business withdrawals he pays to himself and all of his employees combined! There are very few businesses that are exceptions to this rule. So who is really the owner of every business and every piece of property in the entire country? The government thinks it is entitled to a bigger share of every business transaction than all of the employees and owners of businesses combined. Yet it does none of the work. It puts up none of the capital. It takes none of the risk. So where does government get off thinking it is entitled to the lion's share of what everybody produces?

A typical retail business makes about 3% profit on sales, after it pays for inventory, lights, heat, employees, garbage collection, theft, etc. But states boldly demand 8% or more of gross sales!

The government netted more than three times from tobacco sales what the tobacco companies ever did. Yet that did not keep governments from suing tobacco companies for all the rest of their profits to supposedly pay for the medical burden caused by tobacco. In fact, all that money simply went into the general fund of these states. Then, when people lost their jobs, the government blamed the employers. The chutzpah is absolutely incredible. You tax and regulate business to death, then blame the employers when they go out of business.

The total tax burden, even for the rich, is now far higher than found even in King Noah's kleptocracy. King Noah was destroyed by God for it. I fear for our country. The unmitigated governmental greed for a cut of every single transaction has resulted in the highest tax burdens in history, and they are still screaming that it is not enough to help the poor, police our neighborhoods, keep our houses from burning down, defend our borders, fix our roads, or do any of the other things they keep promising to do. And you know what? Even if they took absolutely everything, it would still not be enough.

You are only in your 20s. You have not yet learned that you are a slave. That you spend more than half your working life just to pay your taxes. That this is just as true for the rich as it is for the poor. But you are just beginning to find out. You have reached the stage where evil people are having to tell you that it is the rich, or the corporations, or some other group that has enslaved you. In fact, it is your own government, that government whose every employee takes an oath to uphold your freedoms. What a laugh.

No amount of organized theft can ever help the poor. All it can do is create more of them. All it can do is increase the number of people who are dependent for their food, their water, and every necessity of life on their ruling overlords. You want to know why politicians want to help you out with your health care? It is so you will do what you are told, or they will take your health care away from you! It is all about control. Those who give you a thing, forbid others to provide it, and make you pay for it whether you want it or not -- these are your slave masters and you are their slave.

Do you know the difference between a mugger and a politician? A mugger will beat you up and take all your money. Once. All politicians do that, too, but they keep coming back, year after year, and they demand your loyalty, and they make you fight for them and defend them, and they never let you go. Personally, I would rather deal with muggers.

But go ahead. Just keep on believing those who tell you that those social programs are for your good. Stay asleep. Stay asleep.

[Traveler]

Nonsense. Name one thing that the poor pay that the rich do not pay for. I have never heard such a ridiculous thesis in my entire life.

I guess you have never heard of a slum lord? In our society there are no rich that have not accumlated their wealth from the labor of some one else. Who did Bill Gates "rob" from? How about a small (poor) company in Oregon that created "stacker" software?

The Traveler

[SMG]

Well, perhaps you would consider me as a beneficiary of this "organized robbery." Ever hear of financial aid, such as Stafford loans, Pell grants and the like? Some may think it is theft, but I prefer to think of it as investing, in my case, in a future nurse. =P

[cjcampbell]

I guess you have never heard of a slum lord? In our society there are no rich that have not accumlated their wealth from the labor of some one else. Who did Bill Gates "rob" from? How about a small (poor) company in Oregon that created "stacker" software?

The Traveler

If you really believe this, I feel sorry for you.

Yes, there are rich people who gained their wealth from oppressing the poor. But it is sad to think that anyone would sincerely believe that this is the only way to accumulate wealth.

[cjcampbell]

Well, perhaps you would consider me as a beneficiary of this "organized robbery." Ever hear of financial aid, such as Stafford loans, Pell grants and the like? Some may think it is theft, but I prefer to think of it as investing, in my case, in a future nurse. =P

I believe we were talking about a negative income tax, which is armed robbery, pure and simple. I said earlier that I believe educating the poor and making them productive is a worthwhile endeavor. However, I believe even there that there should be a better way of doing that than by using the power of the gun.

[a-train]

CJcampbell,

Applause to a fantastic post. I loved it. I own and operate a retail business and I am feeling the pain. Anyways, I wanted to offer one startling correction:

Interesting, isn't it, that Presidential candidates (every one of them) can go on and on about tax breaks for people they don't like, but they never name any of these tax breaks, nor do they bother to mention how they did not do anything about any of these tax breaks in all the years they served in Congress or the Senate or as governor or whatever. In fact, every one of the Presidential candidates has a record of raising taxes. Every one of them has voted in favor of the supposed pork barrel projects you say you don't like. But they all say they are against these things.

I never thought that in my lifetime I would say this. But there is a Congressman who has never voted to raise taxes. I can't mention his name because he is running for the big spot this year and I'll get into trouble.

-a-train

[Traveler]

If you really believe this, I feel sorry for you.

Yes, there are rich people who gained their wealth from oppressing the poor. But it is sad to think that anyone would sincerely believe that this is the only way to accumulate wealth.

And you know of another? I have read many books - for example "The Richest Man in Babylon”. The author talks about “investing” and letting your money “work” for you. Oh really? Money does not “work” but it does entice others to work.

It is a very common practice of the rich to exploit those that “work for them” and pay them only a part of what their work produced – even to the point where they keep the bigger share for themselves. Sometimes making the excuse that they take a bigger risk.

It is sad my friend – but the rich will not only profit from another man’s labor but they are so filled with pride that they think they deserve it.

I will give another very interesting example. Have you ever noticed that someone that works in a garden and grows much of their own food – will rejoice over the abundance of their garden and take zucchini and other items they produced by their labor to their neighbors? But not a person that extracts wealth from those around them. They are so afraid of loosing their wealth because they know they cannot earn it on their own that they hoard such abundance and resent that someone in greater need might have the mind to take for them as they have taken from others.

So tell me – my wise friend – tell me what I cannot see for myself. What manner of wealth is there that does not rely on the efforts of others; directly or indirectly for such wealth?

The Traveler