Kirtland Temple!


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16 hours ago, mikbone said:

Bet we will be using the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible quite a bit more in our classes.

192.5 M well spent.

Do you think so? In the 2013 edition of the scriptures did we not use them all out of respect to wishes or requests from the Community of Christ? I would think they would be public domain by now. I know the original manuscripts have been made available to LDS scholars for quite some time now as well. Given all that, I am curious what more we will be able to do with the JST and the other documents purchased now that they are officially owned by the church.

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17 hours ago, mikbone said:

Bet we will be using the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible quite a bit more in our classes.

Well, BYU is the home of various organizations that preserve and digitize records related to Judaism and Christianity, and we've been partnering with the Community of Christ's historian's office on this and other artifacts and documents for a long time.  

The original manuscript (including the 1823 Bible Joseph used in the work) is scanned and free online:  https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/revelations-and-translations/jsppr5

But yes, it's nice to have things, and I'm very excited.  I remember in the 1980's, people with passionate opinions about when we'd finally get the temple and the manuscript.  I'm surprised the CoC has held on to them for so long, especially when we've been offering real $$$ for them for a long time.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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If it might interest anyone, this short (3 minute) video features Apostle Lachlan Mackay of Community of Christ sharing his feelings regarding this transaction.

 

I'm not sure why this seems important to me. Maybe just to remind us that, while our branch of the Restoration is celebrating today, another branch of the Restoration is probably experiencing some mixed emotions.

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Just a little bit of history – as I have experienced.  In my college years I, with a few return missionary friends, embarked or a Church history vacation one summer.  Our encounter with our religious LDS neighbors was bitter and disappointing and left a very bad taste in my mouth.  In my youth, I blamed everything on who we called the Reorganites.   Over the years this bitter relationship has softened. 

One of the doctrines that has sustained some bitterness has been our stand on the priesthood being exclusively for men.  The Community of Christ currently has women apostles.  There was some bitterness over blacks and the priesthood.  Not so much concerning the blacks and the priesthood but the Community of Christ suffered a great division over women and the priesthood.  They have never been solvent economically since that division. 

The LDS Church has financed the Community of Christ to maintain our common interest in historical properties.  It was never sustainable – especially for the Community of Christ.

A few years ago, my wife and I (with some local friends) again made a trip through Church History.  My personal encounter with the Community of Christ was like meeting with beloved long separated family members.  I spent a day with one of their general authorities (president of the 70’s).  I was privileged to go with him through their private vault of artifacts accumulated form the beginning and dating back to the time we were not separated.  With their new focus on “The Community of Christ”, he tearfully confessed to me that they did not have the resources to maintain the artifacts of history.  It was not just the finances but the human resources as well.  We openly discussed the possibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints carrying this baton to the finish line when the Messiah comes.

The bitterness between our religious institutions seems to be the one factor no longer a concern.  I am grateful that our brethren in Christ have carried this burden so well and nobly for so long.  I am grateful that the properties will now be restored to what they need and ought to be – a treasure for the Saints to enjoy during the millennial reign.

 

The Traveler

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17 hours ago, mikbone said:

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/historic-sites/missouri/questions-and-answers-about-the-temple-lot-in-independence-missouri?lang=eng

I bet we purchase some property in Independence Missouri next.  Likely within 5 years.

And there we will build a Temple to the Lord.

The Church is already the single largest owner of property in Missouri.  There are two temples in Missouri.  One in St Louis and one in Kansas City.  There are several temples (24 – mentioned in your link) that will be built in Independence.  My personal theory is that none of this will be built by the Latter-day Saints but will be either returned or constructed by the Saints of Enoch when they return as prophesied.  I speculate this will be at the same time that Melchizedek returns with his Saints to restore the temple to what is now Jerusalem. 

 

The Traveler

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I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa.  One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II".  I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom.  I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.

Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong.  I ran and got the 70 year old book.  He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written.  I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history.  Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."

Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.  

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18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa.  One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II".  I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom.  I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.

Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong.  I ran and got the 70 year old book.  He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written.  I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history.  Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."

Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.  

Just a note.  With all the divisions within the Community of Christ it has been a surprise to me that few of those leaving have joined with us.  And then even the few – it seems to have been the next generation to find itself joining with us.  Perhaps it is the past bitterness.  The individual I met with seemed to have a defeated presents – I would think somewhat like Moroni experiencing the end of the Nephits.  I did feel that he was a good person expressing a sincere sorrow.  Typical to my problems with little compassion I did tell him he has a home with us.  His grace precedes mine with his thank you.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

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Without looking into this beyond reading the figure, I strongly suspect Temple Endowment in this context does not refer to a saving ordinance. Still sounds odd to me.

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16 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Without looking into this beyond reading the figure, I strongly suspect Temple Endowment in this context does not refer to a saving ordinance. Still sounds odd to me.

Correct.  It's the financial term.  An "endowment" is a big pile of money that sits in income generating investments.  You spend the income generated, not the endowment.  And there's usually respect and praise for whoever donated the big pile of money.  You can endow a college, and get a chair (or even a building) named after you.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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19 hours ago, mikbone said:

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/historic-sites/missouri/questions-and-answers-about-the-temple-lot-in-independence-missouri?lang=eng

I bet we purchase some property in Independence Missouri next.  Likely within 5 years.

And there we will build a Temple to the Lord.

How would it be?

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I have vague memories of reading about a discussion between the leaders of the two churches many decades ago in which the then Reorganised church offered to sell the LDS church the Kirtland Temple and the LDS church turning the offer down with the reason that the time would come that the Reorganised church would be so poor that they would give the Temple to us. It appears that that has not happened. Does anybody else recall something like this?

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3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I would like it to become our official version.

I find this unlikely for several reasons:

  • The Bible is perhaps our strongest contact with "traditional" Christianity, a commonality we would be loathe to lose.
  • The JST was never proclaimed as complete. On the contrary, it's a sporadic mishmash of retranslation, interpretation, and doctrinal additions and changes. I think it would not be especially useful as the Bible is used today to try to use the JST as a regular Bible version.
  • The Church has used a non-JST Bible throughout its history. That's what people know. You don't easily just give that up. (This is sort of an extension of the first bullet.)
  • Saints have often complained about the shortcomings and difficulties inherent in using the KJV. The JST preserves all those perceived shortcomings and adds others. Whatever insights Biblical scholarship might add (e.g. the Dead Sea scrolls) would largely be mitigated by a slavish adherence to the JST. (Bonus point: The existence of the JST itself argues against "slavish adherence".)
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We have been talking about the signs of the times.  And I still recall President Nelson's admonition to take your vitamins, etc.

We now have a picture of Joseph Smith.  The original artifacts are returning to the church and I foresee more coming.

I still have a deep hope that the 116 pages will suddenly show up in someone's basement.  It is likely that parts of it were destroyed or altered but if any of the original docs remain they would be cherrished.

 

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Just now, mikbone said:

I still have a deep hope that the 116 pages will suddenly show up in someone's basement.  It is likely that parts of it were destroyed or altered but if any of the original docs remain they would be cherrished.

How would it be?

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The CoC SHOULD BE A WARNING about the dangers of trying to go with mainstream Christianity.

The Churches that are staying with their more traditional teachings and values are (in general) staying stronger with their membership (though most are also still declining if it is a larger church) than those that have tried to "modernize" and "mainstream" their various religions.

I think the Temple in Missouri (theirs) will be one of the last things they would let go, and 190 million will keep them going for a good while at least. 

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa.  One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II".  I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom.  I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.

Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong.  I ran and got the 70 year old book.  He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written.  I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history.  Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."

Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.  

Interestingly enough, this is similar to one of the original divisions within the Islamic religion.  The question of whether the successor to Mohammad should be his son Ali or a council of others.

This caused a division in the religion that has animosity between the both sides from back then during the division to the present day.

At least we are not angry and violent towards each other like the divisions of Islam caused.

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10 hours ago, MrShorty said:

If it might interest anyone, this short (3 minute) video features Apostle Lachlan Mackay of Community of Christ sharing his feelings regarding this transaction.

 

I'm not sure why this seems important to me. Maybe just to remind us that, while our branch of the Restoration is celebrating today, another branch of the Restoration is probably experiencing some mixed emotions.

I think that's why the Church is being very selective in what they say and how they say it. They realize that this is a sad time for those of the CoC. 

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