AnthonyB Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I can understand how a failed Fundamentalist might not be the right person for discipline.I basically grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian church that was regarded as a cult...I went to their school, I went to Church twice on Sunday, I went to homechurch on Wednesday, Youth church on Tuesday, Reachout on Friday and did fun activities with the youth on Saturday. I got accepted into a secular university with scholarship funding...because my sister was attending the church university and the costs were applying pressure on my family I accepted the place. My family was upset about this because they thought I would get into drugs and stuff. It became an issue and eventually I was asked to leave home if I would not make the right choice. I guess they also wanted me to work for the church. My church and friends turned away from me because they felt I had not honoured my parents. I hoped for reconciliation and that I could sort things out. So when the missionaries came to speak to me I just felt how was I not honouring my parents even further if I visited the Mormon church, because my church taught that if you did this you were rejecting Jesus. Kind of a ship without a rudder, faith as my captain but no wind in my sails as to what to do. I attended a similar fundamentalist Christian church but they strongly disagreed with the beliefs of my church and I felt very uncomfortable as they were suspicious of me. Wanderer,I think PC and NanaLDS did A failry good job in their posts.I just wanted to add that I was not in way having or go at or questioning your level of discipline. Fundamentalism is often used as a pejorative and escpecially as a negative criticism for those who are more strict or narrow then the speaker. It originally grew out of the conflict between liberals and conservatives in the Christian church. The liberals were challenging the core beliefs, practices and morals of historic christianity, a group of conservatives got together and published a list that defined the fundatmental things they would not give way on. Mormons are not liberals in the modern sense of the word, they do have a set of beliefs, practices and morals which are central to their identity. You can be a member of some churches today whilst believing that God is no more real than the tooth fairy, that Jesus didn't really exist and as long you feel good about your actions then God will be happy about them. Liberalism is the opposite to fundamentalism and Mormons (IMHO) are not liberals, if your goal was to merely avoid fundamentalism then I could think that there are churches that are further from it then the LDS.Of course no one should choose a faith just to avoid something. Faith comes from a revelation of who God is, and the best way to that is to seek God through prayerful reading of his word and asking the Father to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. (As others have probably said better.)May I reiterate my prayer that the risen Jesus will meet you, as he has promised all that truly seek Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyB Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I think that answers itself. Faith without works is dead, but so is works without faith. Both are important in a balanced setting. 'Mumbling a few words' would be like the vain repetitions of the heathens that we are told we should not emulate. Unfortunately I do know some people who think that so long as they do that they are fine and dandy. They sin on Saturday but confess on Sunday, say a few prayers and wipe the slate clean for a new start on Monday. If you want to here a great critique of that mindset from an evanglelical song writer and you can ignore the slightly dated modern musical style, the Steve Taylor's "Sin for a Season" . Even though I believe he has given permission for his song to be freely copied, I shall not risk the wrath of the Moderator's so I'll paraphrase the words but it won't rhyme so well....Gonna get the good Lord to forgive my sin, And get a new clean slate, so I can dirty it once more,But he reaps his harvest, his hear grows hard,No one's going to make a mockery of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden I am excited about reading the Book of Mormon and so glad that I can read it online. I noticed the other day that you can not only read it but you can click on the audio and listen to it as well and get a double blessing. My sound hasn’t been working on my computer and I just went “Ugh” I need to fix that cause I want to listen as well and have that gift too. How much more powerful would the message be to hear it spoken out loud! This is just the best thing and I want to talk about everything that Jesus is telling me and how important it is. And words are just inadequate. I’ve been praying about this because I have felt discouraged. To stop reading would be like turning off all the music in the world. I clicked on a page, I think it was someone’s lesson notes for Nephi for Sunday School and it was just awesome to read and I started rereading bits and going Wow! And now I think I want to reread the whole thing. I want to read the next book but I don’t want to read the whole thing too quickly and miss anything out…and I’ve been praying. A lot about this thread and for wisdom. Link to comment
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden I don't know if I can explain what happened with my church and everything. But I will try. There were some reasons for not going to the Church university. One of the reasons was the financial burden on the family. The other was that it hadn't been accepted and I didn't know if my degree would be seen as valid by the government and if I would ever be able to get a job with it. My family really felt that I would go astray if I was in the 'outside' world. I was already a year into the course when things became very pressured and they changed their mind and wanted me to quit. They put a small knapsack of clothing outside the house for me one day and that was that. I went to talk to my Pastor who had known me all my life and I listened to what he had to say and my tongue was completely paralysed. I did not know what to say in response. All I could think was you know me, how can you not know the truth. I wasn't drinking, smoking, doing drugs or any of that and was horrified. And of course there was also the belief that when things went wrong with your life it was because you were not right with God to deal with. I moved around a lot with my work and I discovered that my family had rung and notified the nearest church of me everytime I did that when I accidently met a pastor. Anyway, I just want people to understand the circumstances that were involved wasn't a case of rebelling against my beliefs. And my simple approach to anything that concerned me about my beliefs was just to ask God to help me have faith and to change me. If anything I have asked for forgiveness for any doubts in my faith. Over time, I have just tried not to think about it, while I have always believed in Jesus. If someone told you that you could no longer be LDS because you didn't attend the LDS university what would you do? Would your entire church agree? I don't think the fundamentalist Christian church I was part of represents fundamentalist churches as a whole, they were not mainstream.And I am very cautious now. But I don't want all that to get in the way of my joy at finding something that is very precious. I'm just praying for enough faith and trust to talk to a missionary and to open doors. Link to comment
pushka Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Wanderer, I've been following this thread since yesterday, and I commend you for using your own mind and searching the kind of religion that you want, rather than just going along with that of your family, just to keep the peace.From your last post, it sounds like your family were not acting very Christian when they put your knapsack of clothing outside.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 If someone told you that you could no longer be LDS because you didn't attend the LDS university what would you do? Would your entire church agree?I should imagine it would be downright impossible for every LDS student to attend an LDS university. We certainly wouldn't be told we could no longer be part of the church. Education choices are left entirely up to each individual. The only thing the church does is encourage people to get an education.It sounds as if the church you describe is afraid of young people learning from outside sources and discovering that they are more appealing. I've had people from other churches visit me and try to get me to read their literature, which I am more than happy to do but when I offer them a Book of Mormon they tell me they are not permitted to read anything not published by their own church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Pushka everything worked out okay, while it was devastating at the time to lose family, friends, find myself homeless and to feel God had turned away from me I ended up finishing uni and got a job. I moved around a lot for a while and worked in very remote places up north. I have lived away from home for years now as an adult. I'm now living back in my hometown and I have only had one church related phonecall. I don't have a whole lot of contact with my family at the moment, while I have tried to repair that relationship over time it hasn't really worked out. I imagine that they would be very concerned if they were told and might ask people to talk to me about this or then again perhaps just write it off as 'we always knew she was heading for damnation'. Thankyou for your encouragement, it is hard to go against everything you've ever heard and look into things for yourself. Link to comment
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Willow we were encouraged to talk to people of other faiths but not to get into conversations about what they believed or debate things. And certain faiths had more of a warning on them than others. So if they started sharing with you were told to say what you believed and when they explained their beliefs just to respond with an armour of faith or walk away. I truly believed that unless people were born again they would go to hell. If I told them that and they didn't believe it then they had rejected God. I avoided witnessing when I could. Link to comment
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Er yes, to have a book of Mormon in your home would have put your soul at risk, let alone touch one. Link to comment
Shell72 Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I kind of moved away from fundamentalism because certain things made me very unhappy and I couldn't accept them.Here they are:1. That I wanted to pray to God the Father and honour him, not start with Dear Jesus for all of my prayers because this isn't what Jesus would have wanted.2. That everyone who doesn't believe what I do is going to hell, irregardless, if they are not born again and saved...God has a plan that is bigger than that.3. That faith is more important than works. There is something a bit dodgy about believing that you don't have to do anything at all, except mumble a few words every now and then and your relationship with God is right. I don't think that's the true message.1: John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."2: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.3: Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionOfLehi Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 1: John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."2: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.3: Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be savedSaved does not equal attaining the highest degree of glory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Number 2: Yes, and religion isn't mentioned. Number 3: Yes and if you believe it will follow that people will know you by your acts. Number 1...I'm thinking of the model of prayer here. Link to comment
Shell72 Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Saved does not equal attaining the highest degree of glory.I didn't see "highest level of glory" in his post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shell72 Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Number 2: Yes, and religion isn't mentioned.Number 3: Yes and if you believe it will follow that people will know you by your acts.Number 1...I'm thinking of the model of prayer here.Number 2 - No.. "religion" isn't mentioned. The only way is believing that Jesus is your Savior. I believe "religion" is manmade and not of God. What everyone should be striving for is a personal relationship with the One who matters.Number 3 - Yes people will know by our acts - but I believe we also have a responsibility ( not a requirement to get to Heaven) to do God's work while we are on earth. Number 1 - yup - wouldn't be referred to as a "model prayer" for no reason :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hi Wanderer,I don't know if anyone gave you the link yet, but you can read The Book of Mormon here: Book of Mormon:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonboySquarepants Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 VISIONOFLEHI wrote that "Saved does not equal attaining the highest degree of glory." what does 'saved' mean to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PentiumInside Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 VISIONOFLEHI wrote that "Saved does not equal attaining the highest degree of glory."what does 'saved' mean to you?The term "saved" is a way to describe "God has a place for me thats not hell" by people who don't yet know about the plan of salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shell72 Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 The term "saved" is a way to describe "God has a place for me thats not hell" by people who don't yet know about the plan of salvation.Isn't that how God describes it as well? Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.Mark 16 *14 -16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PentiumInside Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 The subsequesnt knowledge gained from not only the the "First Vision" but from other modern revelation as well, led me to RE-READ and RE-DISCOVER the subject in the Bible and found that it makes perfect sense and strengthens my testimony in the church. The term "saved" can be applied in many different circumstances. To try and define it as a black and white definition and apply it homogeneously across the scriptures will not only lead to confusion but is a mistake. If a scripture said " And Jesus saved Peter from the lion before he went home and saved 5 dollars." was real, would that change peoples unequivocal definition? We all know that many different man wrote the many different scriptures we hold to be true and they spoke in different manners and even in different languages. It is safe to say that the SAVE-ior ( Savior) can and will indeed "save" you. If anything more than that confuses you then stick to what you know and continue to read and pray . :) My $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shell72 Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 The subsequesnt knowledge gained from not only the the "First Vision" but from other modern revelation as well, led me to RE-READ and RE-DISCOVER the subject in the Bible and found that it makes perfect sense and strengthens my testimony in the church.The term "saved" can be applied in many different circumstances. To try and define it as a black and white definition and apply it homogeneously across the scriptures will not only lead to confusion but is a mistake. If a scripture said " And Jesus saved Peter from the lion before he went home and saved 5 dollars." was real, would that change peoples unequivocal definition? We all know that many different man wrote the many different scriptures we hold to be true and they spoke in different manners and even in different languages. It is safe to say that the SAVE-ior ( Savior) can and will indeed "save" you. If anything more than that confuses you then stick to what you know and continue to read and pray . :)My $0.02In the Bible it is referred to time and time again that unless "saved" souls will be condemed to death. When someone speaks of getting Saved, within their faith, I think we can all agree that they are not confusing this with saving 5 dollars, and being saved from lions. Semantics aside, Our Savior Saves our Souls from damnation as stated in the Bible many times over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PentiumInside Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Our Savior Saves our Souls from damnation as stated in the Bible many times over.Thats very true. How it happens, where you go when your "saved", and why He does it though are not thoroughly addressed in the Bible( or BoM for that matter) and should not be blanketed with "saved=living with God for eternity the minute you die/Jesus returns" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonboySquarepants Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 so, saved doesn't mean living with God? why even bother being saved if we're not going to live with God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 so, saved doesn't mean living with God? why even bother being saved if we're not going to live with God?Mormons (including me ) believe that all who are saved will be in the presence of God. After all, all three of the Godhead ARE God. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WANDERER Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 · Hidden Hidden Then there's the merit system, different degrees of salvation. I'm curious... if the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ there's the number of people that went to heaven living like Elijah and Enoch. Now I'm guessing they're not sitting at the lower end of heaven and that the top end might be a little diverse in faith...yep why not ask...who gets the gold star? Link to comment
JonboySquarepants Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 hijolly, i'm confused by what you mean. all three of the godhead are God? don't mormons believe the father, son, holy ghost are each a God? you're saying that three Gods is one God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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