What is apostasy?

[Faded]

Apostasy is just a fancy term for "falling away." There are many historical instances that could be referred to as such. When we talk about "The Great Apostasy" we are not talking about single individual. We're talking about

At the time of Christ's earthly ministry among the Jews, the Jewish faith had fallen away from correct practices. Christ did not tell them, "Hey guys, you're doing a fine job, keep up the great work!" He emphatically denounced them and their corruption of the true beliefs and practices that God had set in place through Moses. He called them, "Whitewashed tombs" at one point - about as insulting as you can get at that time. I think that God does not have to apologize for being tactless. Anything short of correctly teaching and practicing what God commanded was and is unacceptable to Him. And the Jews responded by killing Him, their own Messiah and God. So when the Jewish Religion fell away to such an extreme degree that they would reject and kill the messenger of the Lord -- in this case, the Lord Himself, then we can confidently say that they were in a status of Apostasy. The had fallen away from God.

From a Catholic viewpoint, the Protestant Reformation would be seen as a mass-Apostasy. Why? Because they claim to be the One True and Universal Church ordained of God. To reject and break away from the Roman Catholic Church was, in their view, a mass abandonment of God. So this would be another case where the word Apostasy is applicable, even though we Latter Day Saints would not view it that way.

Fast forward to the time of Joseph Smith. His experience begins with a simple question. Joseph wanted to know which Church God wanted him to join.

I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." ...

He took James advice and went into the woods near his home where he could be alone to pray to God and get an answer on the matter.

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me ... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

God did make a tactful answer. He did not say, "Great job guys, keep it up!" He denounced the incorrect teachings of the Christian religions.

Yes there are scriptures to support the concept of the Great Apostasy, but the underlying reason we believe it happened is because God said it happened. Joseph was not expecting the answer he got. He certainly was not expecting to become God's prophet and instrument in re-establishing the correct practices, believes, doctrines and re-establishing God's Church and Kingdom here on Earth.

How did Christianity respond? They harassed and persecuted Joseph Smith and those who believed he was a prophet of God and followed him. They drove them from place to place: from New York, then Ohio, then Missouri, then Illinois. Just as the Jews had done before them, the people had the messenger of God arrested on false charges and then killed him. They drove the believers out of the nation entirely -- to what is Utah today (was part of Mexico at that time.) They have continued to attack, demonize and spread false rumors about "the Mormons" to this very day.

[Faded]

I'll answer that question with a question...can you show me any verse in the Bible that shows me the fall of the Roman empire?

You can't because it happened after the new testament was written....just as the great apostacy happened after the new testament.

Besides it's in the Bible....one of them old prophets talks about a falling away of the Lord's church...can't remember the verse...help someone!

Here you go:

Amos 8:11-12

[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

These two scriptures seem explicit enough, but it is foolishness for anyone to claim that they PROVE the Great Apostasy happened. There are over 10,000 Christian religions, and each one of them will read and understand the Bible a little differently. We believe that the Prophets and Apostles knew in advance that there would be Apostasy enmasse, but we cannot prove it beyond all doubt from the Bible. There isn't much that CAN be absolutely proven from the Bible.

[darrel]

I think the 10,000 number would be conservative. Anyone can establish a 501c3 organization and call it a church. Many professors of religion are not called of God as was Aaron (Heb. 5:4)( Exod.28:1) but take upon themselves the authority to preach. They claim their authority is the Bible. The True Church of Jesus Christ would be patterned after His Church He established in the meridian of time.

Not many (maybe one) has that organization that Christ seemed to think important enough to set up.

[Michael_Newman]

Let's not forget that our church leaders in the mid 1800's excommunicated members for personal apostasy, which included not doing their callings and not upholding their oath and covenants.

Imagine if we returned to excommunicating members who do not home teach, visit teach, attend to their meetings, callings - and are temple worthy and attending the temple.

I pray that we can all avoid personal apostasy in the least,

Michael

[jasper_21]

I'll answer that question with a question...can you show me any verse in the Bible that shows me the fall of the Roman empire?

You can't because it happened after the new testament was written....just as the great apostacy happened after the new testament.

Besides it's in the Bible....one of them old prophets talks about a falling away of the Lord's church...can't remember the verse...help someone!

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

[Brother Dorsey]

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

With thanks to FADED:

Amos 8:11-12

Quote:

[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

Quote:

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Okay...there you go 2, count em' 2 bible verses that tell of the "falling away" , the "great apostasy" where the word of God will not be found on the earth....it had to be restored. And praise God it was restored by the Lord Himself through His choosen Prophet Joseph Smith in 1830!

I hope that those 2 bible verses are plain enough for you, they are simple and easy enough for me to understand.....or are you one of those who liken to twist what the Lord has said and come up with your own imaginary story? Hmmmm?

[jasper_21]

With thanks to FADED:

Amos 8:11-12

Quote:

[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

Quote:

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Okay...there you go 2, count em' 2 bible verses that tell of the "falling away" , the "great apostasy" where the word of God will not be found on the earth....it had to be restored. And praise God it was restored by the Lord Himself through His choosen Prophet Joseph Smith in 1830!

I hope that those 2 bible verses are plain enough for you, they are simple and easy enough for me to understand.....or are you one of those who liken to twist what the Lord has said and come up with your own imaginary story? Hmmmm?

scriptural misinterpretation.

in 2 Thessalonian 2:1-3 it talks about on what will happen to man during the tribulation period. the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where people who follow God will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it. The Tribulation is generally thought to occur before the Second Coming of Jesus and the end of the world. It is not occur after the death of the apostle. Tribulation period will happen:) during the millennial time. Also to discuss it very well in verse 4 you will read the activity of Satan during the tribulation period.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (New International Version)

4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Thessalonian 2:1-4 is a futuristic prophecy that will happen a few years from now before the coming of Jesus. It pertains to millennial time. because before the judgment day Satan will release from prison and will allow to deceive people for a period of 1000 years. and after 1000 years those who deceive by Satan will torment to hell.

This is the correlative verse of 2 thessalonians 2:4

“1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.” Revelation 20:1-3

At the end of the 1,000 years Satan will be released from the bottomless pit for a short time. He will gather the wicked together and they will fight against God and His people. God will bring fire down from heaven to destroy the wicked. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. He will never again tempt any person.

“7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Revelation 20:7-10

note all people will deceive by satan.

I hope dear friends that you understand my position regarding the verse that you posted. You may choose not to believe it. But for me it is a true interpretation of the verse,

god bless.:)

Edited March 9, 2009 by jasper_21

[pam]

note all people will deceive by satan.

I'm confused. You think ALL will be deceived by Satan during this time? Or did you mean NOT all people will be deceived? It's amazing how one little "e" can change the entire message.

Edited March 9, 2009 by pam

[Maxel]

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

Refusal to answer cross-examination yourself is not a good thing. Brother Dorsey has a point: apostasy came after the collective writing of the New Testament was written. However, Faded gave you answers.

You're not here to find answers; accept we believe what we believe without trying to convince us otherwise. I notice you demand we accept that you interpret the scriptures otherwise. Fine; but don't demand one thing of us and another thing of yourself.

Are you here for answers or to poke fun and insult us? It seems you're well aware there are no verses in the Bible that, in your opinion, prove the Apostasy happened. If there was, you would be one of us. You're obviously not.

[pam]

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

Last time I looked this was not a court of law. This is an LDS website based on LDS beliefs. I took a look at the rules of the site again. I didn't see anything in the rules that said we could not answer a question with a question.

[Brother Dorsey]

scriptural misinterpretation.

in 2 Thessalonian 2:1-3 it talks about on what will happen to man during the tribulation period. the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where people who follow God will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it. The Tribulation is generally thought to occur before the Second Coming of Jesus and the end of the world. It is not occur after the death of the apostle. Tribulation period will happen:) during the millennial time.

Huh? I just read those verses again and I didn't read a thing about any "tribulation period". Is this a phrase you just made up? Besides, we're talking about the the time when the word of God (The total word, the total truth, the fullness of the Gospel) would "fall away" and be taken from the earth where there would be a famin of the gospel unto the people. AND this was to happen before the second coming of Christ.

I just don't read "a falling away of the fullness of the Gospel" to mean some kind of tribulation period where people who follow God will be persecuted. Maybe what you mean is during this "tribulation period" those whom follow God will not have the fullness of the Gospel and therefore many will be lead astray by the forces of darkness. Perhaps that's why they called it the "dark ages". But then following this tribulation period (great apostasy) the Lord will restore His Gospel to the earth! Which I can testify to you He has done through the Prophet Joseph Smith!

Oh isn't it wonderful the Lord guides His people through a living Prophet as he had always done in the bible and that we have further revelation to clarify and restore those precious truths missing from the bible.

[FunkyTown]

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

You raise a good point, Jasper. We should answer your questions with direct answers and not answer in questions or parables.

I wonder where anyone here would have gotten the idea that it was okay to answer loaded questions with parables and questions of our own?

Oh, right. The Saviour did that all the time.

Ignore me. I guess it's fine.

[jasper_21]

Refusal to answer cross-examination yourself is not a good thing. Brother Dorsey has a point: apostasy came after the collective writing of the New Testament was written. However, Faded gave you answers.

You're not here to find answers; accept we believe what we believe without trying to convince us otherwise. I notice you demand we accept that you interpret the scriptures otherwise. Fine; but don't demand one thing of us and another thing of yourself.

Are you here for answers or to poke fun and insult us? It seems you're well aware there are no verses in the Bible that, in your opinion, prove the Apostasy happened. If there was, you would be one of us. You're obviously not.

brother dorsay did not understand my question. i ask what particular verse in the bible that contains a prophecy that there will be an apostacy happend?

he use 2 thesalonians 2:1-3 but he misinterpret the verse

[jasper_21]

Huh? I just read those verses again and I didn't read a thing about any "tribulation period".

brother dorsay just read rev 20 and you will see my point that the one talking in 2 Thessalonian 2:1-3 is pertaining to tribulation period and not about apostasy.

Is this a phrase you just made up? Besides, we're talking about the the time when the word of God (The total word, the total truth, the fullness of the Gospel) would "fall away" and be taken from the earth where there would be a famin of the gospel unto the people. AND this was to happen before the second coming of Christ.

no there was no famine in the gospel beside jesus said that the world is past away but his word will never past away. actually the preaching of the gospel spread in the entire world which start from Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch and to the part of the world. we believe that the gospel did not stop after the death of the apostol actually there was several christian martyr in the church history that spread the gospel of christ during the apostolic era. if you want to name it just request me and i will prove it according to the history.

I just don't read "a falling away of the fullness of the Gospel" to mean some kind of tribulation period where people who follow God will be persecuted. Maybe what you mean is during this "tribulation period" those whom follow God will not have the fullness of the Gospel and therefore many will be lead astray by the forces of darkness. Perhaps that's why they called it the "dark ages". But then following this tribulation period (great apostasy) the Lord will restore His Gospel to the earth! Which I can testify to you He has done through the Prophet Joseph Smith!

no no no tribulation period is different to apostasy. apostasy is turning away from faith but you cannot site any biblical verse that "ALL HAVE TURN AWAY FROM FAITH" rather it only said that "some have turn away" although there was apostasy happen but not all christian have turn away faith. in matthew 16:18 jesus gave to peter a key of heaven and promise that on this rock jesus will build a church and the power of death and hades shall not overcome it. meaning in that particular context it is a mere indication that church that christ established was not dissolved temporarily but rather it remains forever as long as the world is existing the church of christ was not be dissolved and it remain forever.

In tribulation period satan will allow to deceive people for a period of 1000 years and those who deceive by satan will torment to hell.

in tribulation not all people will deceive by satan.

Edited March 10, 2009 by jasper_21

[Faded]

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

Asking others to prove something from the Bible? Not very sporting since there isn't much that you can absolutely prove using the Bible.

Here's a test for you. Show me a passage from the Bible that specifically says that the Bible is true. Not anything vague like, "the word of god" or "the scriptures." It needs to say that the Bible is true. Can you do it?

And yes, I do believe that the Bible is true. I just believe that an argument involving people self-righteously tossing about of scriptural passages and proclaiming they are right, is an insult to the scriptures and to God.

[Maxel]

brother dorsay did not understand my question. i ask what particular verse in the bible that contains a prophecy that there will be an apostacy happend?

he use 2 thesalonians 2:1-3 but he misinterpret the verse

I don't see how your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2 is more correct than BrotherDorsey's. I understand the correlation you draw between 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation, but I don't see it founded on anything other than the fact that 2 Thessalonians 1- the preceding chapter- is about the Second Coming of Christ. What you seem to be doing is saying that, despite the clear differentiation through chapter division (and therefore topical division), 2 Thessalonians 2's proximity to 2 Thessalonians 1 should give it the context of the end of days. Even if that were true, however, it does not mean the phrase 'that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,' cannot reference an apostasy, as if an apostasy were to happen, it must needs be before the Second Coming of Christ. The scripture is rife with examples of large time periods being mentioned in much smaller terms, such as 'day', 'generation', etc. Daniel's vision of the idol actually represents periods over centuries (millenia, even) yet it makes no reference to the time lapse within the revelation itself.

However, you're not looking for answers, or to learn. Someone please close this thread- the OP is no longer visiting it, and this most recent activity has all been Mormon-bashing.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Maxel

[jasper_21]

Even if that were true, however, it does not mean the phrase 'that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,' cannot reference an apostasy, as if an apostasy were to happen, it must needs be before the Second Coming of Christ.

i believe that there was an apostasy happend but it is not to the church that christ was establish rather the apostasy was turning away from faith will be done by the members of church, the member received a gospel but unfortunately turn away their faith because they deceive by satan.

Not all the member of the church will turn away from faith but rather the bible said "some" only meaning not all will turn away their faith.

i don't believe that the church will be dissolved because if i listen to your doctrine you will say that jesus is a liar and he teach in contradiction.

why did i say that?

because jesus clearly teach apostle peter that the church will not overcome the power of death and hades. meaning as long as the world exist the church will not dissolved. as a matter of fact, before the birth of Joseph Smith there was a evangelization of gospel thru the effort of some earliest reformist such as Martin Luther and John Calvin.

even William Tyndale translate bible to english language so that many people can read the gospel of christ.

never in the history of the christian church clearly stated that the christian people and the church was lost. as a matter of fact during the apostolic era or when the roman catholic church emerge there was several christian martyr died because of proclaiming the gospel of christ.

[jasper_21]

Asking others to prove something from the Bible? Not very sporting since there isn't much that you can absolutely prove using the Bible.

Here's a test for you. Show me a passage from the Bible that specifically says that the Bible is true. Not anything vague like, "the word of god" or "the scriptures." It needs to say that the Bible is true. Can you do it?

And yes, I do believe that the Bible is true. I just believe that an argument involving people self-righteously tossing about of scriptural passages and proclaiming they are right, is an insult to the scriptures and to God.

your question is irrelevant to this topic. i can answer your question but first you create another thread that will discuss your question so that this thread will not be posted irrelevantly

thank you for the question and god bless:)

[Maxel]

i believe that there was an apostasy happend but it is not to the church that christ was establish rather the apostasy was turning away from faith will be done by the members of church, the member received a gospel but unfortunately turn away their faith because they deceive by satan.

This right here- the language 'i believe'- tells me your entire argument is based on your own opinion. You're using the most circular kind of logic here: you have your conclusion, and you interpret the facts to come to that conclusion. That's fine; I don't care- but don't come in here telling us that we have it all wrong. What authority do you have anyway?

Not all the member of the church will turn away from faith but rather the bible said "some" only meaning not all will turn away their faith.

i don't believe that the church will be dissolved because if i listen to your doctrine you will say that jesus is a liar and he teach in contradiction.

Really? I've never heard that. In fact, I clearly remember the numerous times I've been taught that Christ was perfect. However, let's look at what you say next.

why did i say that?

because jesus clearly teach apostle peter that the church will not overcome the power of death and hades. meaning as long as the world exist the church will not dissolved.

Frankly, unless you have some prophetic authority to interpret that scripture, you cannot know exactly what Christ meant. You can guess, but you cannot definitively say that and expect anyone to believe you based on your own opinions.

as a matter of fact, before the birth of Joseph Smith there was a evangelization of gospel thru the effort of some earliest reformist such as Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Don't forget the formation of the Catholic Church, too. The fundamentals of the Christian church were never taken from the earth: once Christ came, the knowledge of His life and divine mission was never lost again. However, other precious truths were.

never in the history of the christian church clearly stated that the christian people and the church was lost.

Again, circular reasoning. If the church fell away, of course there would be no official records or admittances of the fact. That's like saying the Roman government never admitted its corruption and predicted its own doom. Simply because the leaders never admitted they were corrupt, doesn't mean they weren't.

The entire point is that, over time, the Christian church fell into apostasy and the authority to act in God's name, the Priesthood, was taken from the earth.

as a matter of fact during the apostolic era or when the roman catholic church emerge there was several christian martyr died because of proclaiming the gospel of christ.

What does that prove, exactly? There have been many more Christian martyrs since then. Again, the apostasy's major effect was the taking of the Priesthood from the earth, and the losing of key truths from the Gospel of Christ.

By the way, I'm really getting tired of you deflecting every honest question. You're not here to discuss; we're talking past each other. You don't accept my evidence; I don't accept yours.

[jasper_21]

This right here- the language 'i believe'- tells me your entire argument is based on your own opinion. You're using the most circular kind of logic here: you have your conclusion, and you interpret the facts to come to that conclusion. That's fine; I don't care- but don't come in here telling us that we have it all wrong. What authority do you have anyway?

No my dear brother. this is not my own opinion rather what i been posted is based upon the teaching of christ that the church will not overcome the power of death and hades. we hold that particular teaching. we all know that there was an apostasy happen but it was not pertains to the church and authority of the people. because 1) why there was a sacred writings available during apostolic era. 2) why there was several christian martyr died during the dark ages or the time when roman catholicism emerge? 3) why the gospel reformation did not stopped by the roman catholic authority? 4) if you claim that joseph smith is the authority will you kindly give me a specific verse in the bible to support your claim that smith will be given an authority to proclaim a gospel? if none, give me at least one prophetic verse in the bible that will prove that joseph smith will be the one who will restore gospel?

Dear brother our source of authority is the holy scripture although the man are responsible for writing it but it was guided by the holy spirit. Holy Scripture or Bible is the inspired word of god. Our authority and basis for doctrinal teaching and faith are purely based on the bible. not written in the bible means your own personal hearsay,

My dear brother, the bible did not say that "all members" or simply "the church that christ established" will be in apostasy but rather it was clearly stated that the church will not overcome the power of death,

Frankly, unless you have some prophetic authority to interpret that scripture, you cannot know exactly what Christ meant. You can guess, but you cannot definitively say that and expect anyone to believe you based on your own opinions.

Dear brother, the scripture clearly taught us the proper way on how to achieve salvation. It was through the faith of our lord jesus christ. anyone can share a gospel to christ there was no restriction because we live not in accordance to the law but we live according to faith in our lord jesus christ.

Again, circular reasoning. If the church fell away, of course there would be no official records or admittances of the fact. That's like saying the Roman government never admitted its corruption and predicted its own doom. Simply because the leaders never admitted they were corrupt, doesn't mean they weren't.

History is not complete my dear brother, although there was an presecution happen during the time of the apostol and after the death of apostle but still there were some of the christian still have a faith in our lord god and christ. you cannot say it unless you were born during that period.

You have an ancestral right? Is the name of your ancestral was written in the history? the birthday and even socio cultural background of your ancestral is written in the history?

My dear friend the bible is silence about the total apostasy. the bible did not mention that church will dissolve or all the members will turn away their faith. so meaning your teaching regarding the total apostasy was not based on the bible but your own personal opinion.

The entire point is that, over time, the Christian church fell into apostasy and the authority to act in God's name, the Priesthood, was taken from the earth.

Can you give any verse in the bible that christian will fell into apostasy? give me at least one. because your claim is not biblical because christ said that church will not fall. in your doctrine you mean that christ teach wrong and he is a liar.

What does that prove, exactly? There have been many more Christian martyrs since then. Again, the apostasy's major effect was the taking of the Priesthood from the earth, and the losing of key truths from the Gospel of Christ.

dear friend the truth of the gospel is that we must have faith in our lord jesus christ. because we have justified through faith. we are not dealing with the doctrine because apostle original gospel proclaim that we must have faith in our lord jesus christ in order for us to be save, in the history the christian martyr teach the truthfulness of the gospel of christ. roman empire and even catholicism condemn it because they know that their additional teaching is not based on the original gospel of christ.

[jasper_21]

By the way, I'm really getting tired of you deflecting every honest question. You're not here to discuss; we're talking past each other. You don't accept my evidence; I don't accept yours.

no my dear brother im here not to criticize anyone of you but to proclaim the truthfulness about the church being established by christ

i'm sorry if that was your own personal interpretation on what i've said:(

[darrel]

i believe that there was an apostasy happend but it is not to the church that christ was establish rather the apostasy was turning away from faith will be done by the members of church, the member received a gospel but unfortunately turn away their faith because they deceive by satan.

Not all the member of the church will turn away from faith but rather the bible said "some" only meaning not all will turn away their faith.

i don't believe that the church will be dissolved because if i listen to your doctrine you will say that jesus is a liar and he teach in contradiction.

why did i say that?

because jesus clearly teach apostle peter that the church will not overcome the power of death and hades. meaning as long as the world exist the church will not dissolved. as a matter of fact, before the birth of Joseph Smith there was a evangelization of gospel thru the effort of some earliest reformist such as Martin Luther and John Calvin.

even William Tyndale translate bible to english language so that many people can read the gospel of christ.

never in the history of the christian church clearly stated that the christian people and the church was lost. as a matter of fact during the apostolic era or when the roman catholic church emerge there was several christian martyr died because of proclaiming the gospel of christ.

Jasper_21 With all due respect, by what authority do you interpret scripture?

Edited March 11, 2009 by darrel

[pam]

no my dear brother im here not to criticize anyone of you but to proclaim the truthfulness about the church being established by christ

i'm sorry if that was your own personal interpretation on what i've said:(

And my dear brother...WE are here to proclaim the truthfullness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which was restored in these latter days by the prophet Joseph Smith.

[jasper_21]

Jasper_21 With all due respect, by what authority do you interpret scripture?

dear brother the topic in this thread was all about apostacy not authority, Again you gave another irrelevant argumentation.

If you like to discuss about authority kindly give me a separate thread and link and i will happy to discuss it.

I want a uniform discussion.

This topic is all about apostasy not about biblical authority meaning

1) In Apostasy you must prove that the church established by christ was dissolved after the death of the apostle

2) In Apostasy you must prove that all members of the church was turn away from faith according to the bible

It is different from Authority Issue

1) In Authority i will prove that i get authority from scripture alone

see the differences and you'll notice the irrelevant posting that you have.

dear brother kindly stick to the issue. don't divert the issue in another issue because it was a merely indication that you cannot response my rebuttal correctly,

i hope you can follow this topic

god bless:)

Edited March 11, 2009 by jasper_21

[jasper_21]

Asking others to prove something from the Bible? Not very sporting since there isn't much that you can absolutely prove using the Bible.

Here's a test for you. Show me a passage from the Bible that specifically says that the Bible is true. Not anything vague like, "the word of god" or "the scriptures." It needs to say that the Bible is true. Can you do it?

And yes, I do believe that the Bible is true. I just believe that an argument involving people self-righteously tossing about of scriptural passages and proclaiming they are right, is an insult to the scriptures and to God.

dear brother the topic here is all about apostasy not about the bible.

if you want to discuss it kindly give me a separate thread and webpage link and i will happy to discuss it with you.

i hope you must follow this topic

god bless