What is apostasy?

[Faded]

your question is irrelevant to this topic. i can answer your question but first you create another thread that will discuss your question so that this thread will not be posted irrelevantly

thank you for the question and god bless:)

You're entire point is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has to prove our understanding of the Apostasy from the Bible. Why? You're the one staking that claim, so why are you refusing to prove it's validity?

It is easy enough to reference a long list of biblical passages that suggest there would be a significant falling away. But does that prove our point? No. There are a TON of things that cannot be absolutely proven true or false with absolute certainty from the Bible alone.

The premise that everything must be proven from the Bible and the Bible alone is the entire problem here. You believe that if something cannot be proven from the Bible, then it must automatically be rejected, yet you cannot prove that the Bible even teaches such a standard. The Bible does NOT claim that the Bible is the receptacle of all truth.

If you cannot prove the doctrine that "All things must be proven by the Bible" is God's true standard, then you must drop your point from this discussion. It is you who had staked this claim, so if you cannot validate it's correctness using the Bible, then what right do you have to say that we must "prove every little thing about the Apostasy from the Bible and the Bible alone." You are limiting the discussion based on your own personal belief and standard.

It's fine if you refuse to answer the question. It just means you're willing to hold others to a standard you are incapable of achieving yourself. That is known as hypocrisy.

[jasper_21]

You're entire point is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has to prove our understanding of the Apostasy from the Bible. Why? You're the one staking that claim, so why are you refusing to prove it's validity?

Did Jesus Christ predict that there will be an total apostasy after the death of the apostle? Did Apostle foresaw through the prediction that there will be an apostasy?

If you kindly gave me a single verse in the bible that stated the there will be a "TOTAL APOSTASY" then i considered that your doctrine is correct.

Dear Friend, Jesus Christ and the Apostle said that some of the members are turning away from faith. It doesn't mean that all member of the church will turn away from faith and it doesn't mean that the church established by Christ was dissolved.

Dear Friend, If i believe in your doctrine then we will considered that Jesus is a liar. Because Jesus guaranteed us that his church will not overcome the power of death meaning there was no temporary dissolved of the church.

It is easy enough to reference a long list of biblical passages that suggest there would be a significant falling away. But does that prove our point? No. There are a TON of things that cannot be absolutely proven true or false with absolute certainty from the Bible alone.

that's what i asking for. The biblical verse to support your claim that there will be a "TOTAL APOSTASY" because there friend the biblical verse stated that there was a turning of faith in the last day but some only will turn away from it and not all.

The premise that everything must be proven from the Bible and the Bible alone is the entire problem here. You believe that if something cannot be proven from the Bible, then it must automatically be rejected, yet you cannot prove that the Bible even teaches such a standard. The Bible does NOT claim that the Bible is the receptacle of all truth.

Dear Friend, I can prove it that the bible is the receptacle of all truth. But friend, This is noit a topic in this thread. Again you are posting irrelevant rebuttal that leads us to irrelevant posting in this topic. Our topic here is all about apostasy meaning you must prove that there will be a TOTAL APOSTASY that will happend after the death of the apostle.

Dear Friend, Instead of giving me an irrelevant argumentation, kindly give me one of the prophecy in the bible that the apostle and christ predict that there will be a total apostasy.

Because dear friend, If you claim that the book of mormons is true then it must have a doctrinal consistency within the bible. if the book of mormons as well as the bible will contradict each other then we will say that the book of mormons is not inspired word of god.

Dear Friend, We believe that the bible (holy scripture) is inspired word of god according to 2 tim 3:15-16. but dear friend i will not elaborate furthermore about this verse because it is not really our topic in this discussion,

If you cannot prove the doctrine that "All things must be proven by the Bible" is God's true standard, then you must drop your point from this discussion.

Dear Friend, again i can answer you in that argumentation but it is not a topic of this thread, Again i will tell you that your rebuttal is irrelevant to this topic.

I ask you, Did Jesus Christ predict that there will be an total apostasy happend during the dark age or after the death of the apostle?

And did apostle predict also that there will be an apostasy?

I need a biblical verse not irrelevant posting.

If you want to discuss with me about the doctrine should be in the bible then you must create a separate thread and i will be happy to discuss it with you.

I did not say that i cannot answer your rebuttal about "does the bible teach that the doctrine should be in the bible" but rather i request you to open a separate thread because this issue is all about apostasy not about bible.

That is known as hypocrisy.

You said to me that i insult everybody here in the forum. butin your own word who insult people. I'll leave it up to you.

Again, you must become mature in this particular discussion and you must answer a rebuttal relevantly.

If you want to discuss about the doctrine should be in the bible then create another thread because the true topic in this discussion will be lost

God Bless and be mature:)

[pam]

Faded I didn't realize you were such "dear friends" with jasper.

Edited March 12, 2009 by pam

[Faded]

Jasper, I'm not going to respond to your whole post as I have very limited time this morning. Firstly, I do apologize if I came off as impolite. That was not my intention, but that's certainly no good excuse. The trouble is, you cannot know the "tone of voice" from written text, so you will have to take me at my word that I was not trying to attack you personally. I was simply trying to get you to establish your underlying argument: that the Bible can answer the question, "Did the Great Apostasy happen?"

My points remain though:

1.) The Apostasy cannot be proven true by the Bible alone. There are passages that can be used to debate the matter, but they are not explicit enough to prove anything.

2.) The Apostasy cannot be proven false by the Bible alone. There are passages that can be used to debate the matter, but they are not explicit enough to prove anything.

3.) Since we do not have all of the words of Jesus Christ, and we do not have all of the words of the Apostles, it's impossible to know what he did or did not predict.

4.) You brought up the idea that "it must be proven from the Bible." This is a traditional standard since 398 AD when the "Bible" was at long last put together and canonized.

5.) With the obvious lack of direct revelation from God to answer important questions (this was the highest standard of truth and validity throughout the Old and New Testament times), Christianity developed the tradition of "what does the Bible say on the matter," etc. Ultimately, it was the best they could possibly do under the circumstances.

The many interpretations of virtually every Biblical passage in existence can make your head spin. When Joseph Smith went to pray to God, he had already realized something you apparently have not:

11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

As a 14 year old boy, Joseph knew very well that to try to prove who was right or wrong from the Bible was futile. He had seen it as each of the Christian religions tried to teach him that their belief was correct and that everyone else was just not reading the Bible correctly.

The key to knowing for certain was found in the Bible and it referred Joseph and all of us to the perfect source of all truth: God himself. He went to God and got an answer, just like Moses, Samuel, Gideon, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, Daniel, Peter, John, Paul and all the men of God who came before him. And as with every prophet or apostle that came before him, each person who hears about it must learn from God Himself whether or not that first vision was real. Only God can tell whether all that came thereafter was done by God.

But we must not be as the Pharasees in our appeal to God. In all likelihood, many of them prayed to know whether Jesus Christ was who He said he was. But they had closed their minds to the possibility that Jesus was the Messiah. They went to every effort to destroy Jesus and His followers. Why? Because He did not fulfill their interpretation of the scriptures in the way they thought that the Messiah would. Because they were expecting something else, based upon their understanding of the scriptures. And they missed the coming of THEIR Messiah, THEIR God and THEIR Savior. Rather than embracing Him, they killed him. Instead of embracing the work of God, they turned against it.

And that history has repeated itself today. The very people who should have accepted a true prophet of God instead rejected him and murdered him.

[Faded]

I need a biblical verse not irrelevant posting.

Nobody every said you can have what you want. There is not rule on this forum that says I must abuse the Bible to satisfy your need to debate the matter. Neither of us can win such an argument because both parties can simply say, "That's not how I'm understanding that passage. I think it's actually saying ______." In short, I am choosing to not waste my time. You can insist until doomsday that it must be done your way. Are you really open-minded enough to accept another point of view? Most people who are anxious to draw others into a debate from the Bible are very closed-minded to other points of view because they are just sure that the Bible says they're right, even though it doesn't. That's why it's a waste of time.

[jasper_21]

My points remain though:

1.) The Apostasy cannot be proven true by the Bible alone. There are passages that can be used to debate the matter, but they are not explicit enough to prove anything.

The point is you admit that there was several passages in the bible in order for you to prove that there will be a TOTAL APOSTASY happend. That was your claim but until now why did you not site any biblical verse to support your claim. and why did you ignore my question that 1) DId Jesus Predict or foresaw that there will be a TOTAL APOSTASY happend? If yes give me a verse in the bible. 2) Did Apostle also foresaw that TOTAL APOSTASY will happend after their death? If yes kindly gave me a specific verse.

Dear Friends, until now you did not site any biblical verse despite that you admit that there was several passages in the bible to support your claim.

2.) The Apostasy cannot be proven false by the Bible alone. There are passages that can be used to debate the matter, but they are not explicit enough to prove anything.

We reject that particular teaching because Christ and even apostle never taught that there will be a TOTAL APOSTASY happen in a church. The apostasy will be done by a some of the members only who will turn away from faith because of the hearsay teaching. The bible did not mention that there will be a TOTAL APOSTASY. Because dear friend if i will listen to your doctrine i will call jesus a liar because he said that his church will never overcome the power of death so meaning it is impossible for us to conclude that the church established by church will undergo temporary dissolved.

The TOTAL APOSTASY teaching is only your own dogma. meaning you formulate the teaching which are not the actual teaching of the holy scripture.

3.) Since we do not have all of the words of Jesus Christ, and we do not have all of the words of the Apostles, it's impossible to know what he did or did not predict.

Dear friend, give me a specific verse in the bible that said that we do not have all words of jesus christ and the word of the apostle?

4.) You brought up the idea that "it must be proven from the Bible." This is a traditional standard since 398 AD when the "Bible" was at long last put together and canonized.

Again, this is the 5th time that you post irrelevant issue. because the topic here is all about the apostasy not the biblical canon:)

5.) With the obvious lack of direct revelation from God to answer important questions (this was the highest standard of truth and validity throughout the Old and New Testament times), Christianity developed the tradition of "what does the Bible say on the matter," etc. Ultimately, it was the best they could possibly do under the circumstances.

We the true christian believe that the teaching and doctrines must based on the bible and i can prove it once you create a separate thread that will tackle that issue. i will not elaborate it because as i said in my previous post this was not a topic in this thread.

And that history has repeated itself today. The very people who should have accepted a true prophet of God instead rejected him and murdered him.

No my dear friends, i'm sorry to say that your prophet was imprisoned not because of proclaiming the gospel of Christ but due to his unlawful act. He was killed by a mob because the mob want to demoralized the government and tell that the government is responsible for such killing. i can prove it according to history but it is not a real topic in this thread. create another thread and i will happy to discuss it.

Edited March 13, 2009 by jasper_21

[bytor2112]

Critics of the LDS belief in an apostasy after the death and resurrection of Christ often cite Jude 1:3 as proof that no such apostasy took place. This passage speaks of the faith which was "once for all" delivered to the saints. Those critics believe that "once for all" (Jude 1:3, NIV) means that there will never be a need to restore the gospel… that it will never be taken from the earth or lost.

The word "once" as used in Jude 1:3 should be translated as "before" or "previously" to be more accurate. As proof of this, note that the same Greek word was used in verse 5 and was also translated in the KJV as "once." The context used in verse 5 makes it clear that to interpret the use in verse two as "one time" is not correct. The KJV translates the Greek as "ye once knew this" (i.e. He knew it in the past but may have forgotten it). The New International Version confirms this by translating this same Greek word (once--verse 5) as "already," meaning formerly.

Other scriptures confirm that many general apostasies have taken place, and that the gospel had been formerly delivered to ancient Israel following these apostasies… (Deuteronomy 9:7,25; 29:25; 30:15- 19; Judges 3:7; 1 Kings 11:2; 14:22; 2 Kings 17:7; 21:2; Psalms 106:36; Isaiah 2:8; 39; 24:5; 29:13-14; 59:2; Jerimiah 2:17; 7:11; 35:15; Ezekiel 2:3; 11:12; 22:26; Hosiah. 4:6, 17; Amos 8:11; Micah 3:11; Matthew 13:15; 15:9).

Paul taught the Galatians that "God… preached before the gospel unto Abraham" (Galatians 3:8) and in Hebrews 4:2 he declared that, "unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them [israel in the days of Moses.. 1 Corinthians 10:4, Hebrews 3:16-17]: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Hebrews 4:2). If the gospel was preached to Abraham in 2000 BC, to the people of Israel during the Exodus in 1350 BC, and then to Israel of Christ's day, it was delivered more than one time. (See also Isaiah 40:9; 52:7; 61:1; Moses 5:58-59; 6:51-68; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 59-61; Seaich, Mormonism, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi Texts, pp. 54-55).

It is clear that an apostasy was predicted by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Jesus taught that, "many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:5). Paul declared, "Be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by many means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3).

We should note that the Greek word apostasia was translated as "falling away" in the KJV. Thus Paul is saying that the early Christians should not be fooled by false Christs since there would be an unmistakable apostasy before Christ's return. Consider also the following: Matthew 24:4, 9-13, 24; John 16:2-3; Acts 20:29-30; 1 Corinthians 1:10-13; Galatians 1:6-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 12-13; 4:3-4; Titus 1:10-16; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 3:3; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3-4; Revelation 13:4-8.

Other Biblical verses such as Matthew 17:11; Acts 1:6-7; 3:19-21; Ephesians 1:10; and Revelation 14:6 confirm the LDS belief that a restoration of the gospel was prophesied to occur in these latter days.

Some may be tempted to cite the Protestant reformation as the fulfillment of these prophecies, but it is clear that the promised restoration was to be accomplished not through man's effort but in spite of it (Daniel 2:44-45; Matthew 5:13; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 3:1-7; 4:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8). Such a renewal came at the time of the Savior's mortal ministry. Jesus Christ made no attempt to reform the doctrines and institutions of His day; He simply restored the true gospel to the Earth. It was taught not as reformed Judaism but rather as a new alternative to it. As Jesus taught, new wine cannot be put in old bottles or both the wine and the bottles will be lost (Matthew 9:16-17). The multitudes of Protestant churches existing today are proof of the fact that a reformation cannot succeed in restoring absolute truth. God has always accomplished this end through new revelation to his chosen prophets and not through self-appointed reformers.

Source: fairlds

[bytor2112]

We the true christian believe

You know doubt meant your INSULT to read: " we the true Christians"?????? Honestly, Jasper, you should choose your words more carefully. I have no reason to doubt that you are a Christian, please, afford us the same courtesy.

Edited March 13, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

more on the apostasy.......

[bytor2112]

hold on Jasper....a bit more for you

[AnthonyB]

Most Christians think that some sort of apostasy has happended at some stage in church history. That some other section of the church has neglected, misunderstood, failed to practice or believe something they see as an important part of the gospel and true christian practice. The level, extant, duration and what effects it had on the church is what is really up for contention. This is where I find LDS at times confusing.

Your version of the apostacy is far more dramatic then mine but the key nub of the issue is the loss of priesthood/apostolic authority. You believe that no other church has had any priesthood authority since shortly after the apsotles. Yet politely say that there was still some lesser or greater truth in the churches which preceeded yours.

Now I agree that baptism is for the remission of sins but I see it as a normative act not exclusive. That is, it is the biblically prescribed way to remit sins but 1 John 1:9, (which incidently uses the same greek word for removing sins as Acts 2:38) indicates that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to remit us from all unrighteousness.

Whereas I precieve (please correct if wrong) that like some churches in the states, you believe that baptism for remission is exclusive and the only way to remit sins. However since you believe that priesthood authority is required to baptise and that you alone have that authority, then no Christian outside the LDS (since apostolic times) has been baptised. No true baptism, means no remission of sins, no entry into Christ's church and no receiving the Holy Spirit.

Then for LDS no other Christians, have their sins remitted, are walking with Christ and truly have the Holy Spirit. Yet I would submit that although the Christian church is not perfect and there are poor example of Christians in it, yet there are people who do show the fruit of the spirit, do the work of preaching the gospel of Jesus by the spirit of God to the glory of Jesus Christ and live as if they are Jesus' people on earth.

If it baa's like a sheep, lives like a sheep, and is not the slightest bit wolvish then it is a sheep. Either we are sheep (albeit slightly confused ones in your opinion) and part of Jesus flock or we are goats. I feel LDS leave other Christians as some sort of hybrid between a sheep and a goat.

[jasper_21]

The word "once" as used in Jude 1:3 should be translated as "before" or "previously" to be more accurate. As proof of this, note that the same Greek word was used in verse 5 and was also translated in the KJV as "once." The context used in verse 5 makes it clear that to interpret the use in verse two as "one time" is not correct. The KJV translates the Greek as "ye once knew this" (i.e. He knew it in the past but may have forgotten it). The New International Version confirms this by translating this same Greek word (once--verse 5) as "already," meaning formerly.

Scriptural misinterpretation. Dear friends, we will analyze the verse according to what the author pertaining about. Your interpretation is out of context and not in accordance to what the bible is written about.

Jude 1:3 (New International Version)

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

In jude 1:3 the author remind us to defend or contend the faith that was entrusted to the saints. The word "once" in verse 3 indicated that the true faith was already presented to the believer or the saints. meaning the author remind us not to be deceived by some one who teach not in accordance to the principle of gods, those who promote immorality and deny our lord jesus christ (as we read continuously in verse 4)

there was a different issue in verse 5

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

in verse 5 the author reminds us about his grace in israel because the lord delivered his people out of egypt. but again they destroyed because they did not believe god.

in verse 3 the word "once" is pertaining to the saint to received the gospel of christ while in verse 5 the word later or formerly pertains to israel.

In book of jude the christian must hold the true teaching in order for us that their salvation will not lost. the book illustrate on the happening to israel despite god choose the nation israel as his nation still israel refuse to follow the commandments of the lord and commit idolatry and immorality that why god curse israel. The application of this to christianity is we must be walk in accordance to the true gospel of christ.

It is clear that an apostasy was predicted by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Jesus taught that, "many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:5).

in that particular verse, did jesus say that "ALL WAS DECEIVED"? kindly answer me straight to the point.

Paul declared, "Be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by many means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3).

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 (New International Version)

2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Another scriptural misinterpretation, i discuss it already in my previous thread kindly check my previous post. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 it talks about on what will happen on tribulation period before the coming of christ. we correlate that verse not in our own personal opinion but in bible also. we used rev 20 to prove that it is true interpretation,

because in tribulation period satan will be permitted to deceived people and after 1000 years those who deceived will torment to hell.

Even in that particular verse it did not say that "ALL" man rebelled. did you see it also?

We should note that the Greek word apostasia was translated as "falling away" in the KJV. Thus Paul is saying that the early Christians should not be fooled by false Christs since there would be an unmistakable apostasy before Christ's return. Consider also the following: Matthew 24:4, 9-13, 24; John 16:2-3; Acts 20:29-30; 1 Corinthians 1:10-13; Galatians 1:6-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 12-13; 4:3-4; Titus 1:10-16; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 3:3; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3-4; Revelation 13:4-8.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 (New International Version)

1 Timothy 4

Instructions to Timothy

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

in that particular verse did "ALL PEOPLE abandon the faith" Again you are wrong again. It did not say that ALL ABANDON but rather SOME ONLY meaning not all people abandon faith.

another scriptural misinterpretation here it up

Acts 20:29-30 (New International Version)

29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

In that particular verse did it say that "ALL THE MEMBER OF THE FLOCK WAS DECEIVED BY THE SAVAGE WOLVES"? kindly answer me.

another sciprtural misinterpretation

John 16:2-3 (New International Version)

2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

in that verse did jesus said that "ALL SAINTS OR BELIEVER WILL KILLED" although in that particular verse there was a christian persecution but it did not say that all christian will be killed.

another scriptural misinterpretation here again

2 Peter 2:1-3 (New International Version)

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Did the author said that "ALL WILL FOLLOW THEIR SHAMEFUL WAY"?

when you said the word many it does not mean all but rather some only.

for example

Many of my High School Classmate are doctor.

did all my high school classmate is a doctor.

Other Biblical verses such as Matthew 17:11; Acts 1:6-7; 3:19-21; Ephesians 1:10; and Revelation 14:6 confirm the LDS belief that a restoration of the gospel was prophesied to occur in these latter days.

another scriptural misinterpretation

Matthew 17:11 (New International Version)

11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.

give me a verse in the bible that show that Joseph Smith is an Elijah?

again another scriptural misinterpretation

Acts 1:6-7 (New International Version)

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

in that verse it does not speak about joseph smith but rather to the apostle. because in that particular chapter 1 of the book of acts before the apostle will spread the gospel they must first go to jerusalem to recieved an endownment of the holy spirit. it happend already during their times. act 1:6-7 is not a prophecy but rather a statement for apostle in giving them an authority,

another scriptural misinterpretation also

Ephesians 1:10 (New International Version)

10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

in this verse it said that all will be united in a single purpose for christ. because we believe that through faith in our lord jesus christ will receive salvation. as long as we accept christ as personal saviour we will be save. it happend after the judgement day when all people who are in christ will be save.

I hope i explain a verse one on one. instead of relaying only on copyrighted materials being published by your own church. why don't you try to research furthermore and you must see that the TOTAL APOSTASY IS NOT TRUE

god bless.

[jasper_21]

You know doubt meant your INSULT to read: " we the true Christians"?????? Honestly, Jasper, you should choose your words more carefully. I have no reason to doubt that you are a Christian, please, afford us the same courtesy.

i don't think it insult you. "did i say that you are a false christian?"

[bytor2112]

The things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, Jasper. The Bible, in it's present form doesn't contain all the answers. There is a Prophet on the earth and communication with God has resumed. This is cause for rejoicing.

[PastorBob]

1. Timothy 4:1-6

1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

This is deeply symbolic, especially on the eating of meats.

Acts, 10:10-16

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

These "meats" to be killed and eaten are the goyim (cattle in Hebrew) which Peter was avoiding as a Jew, but Jesus here commands him to bring the truth to them.

The conscience seared with a hot iron does not mean it is dead; a horse branded goes wild and begins to buck on contact. It is listening to it, when it tells a person to do evil, or to torture themselves for having not done enough; both end up sinning sooner or later from the pain it is causing.

Verses 4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

To understand these verses we must go back to Genesis and look at the first "unclean beast" the serpent, which crawled on its belly.

Leviticus 11:41-45:

And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination. Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Normally, these are unclean, but when they are sanctified with prayer they are clean.

They were referring to the people who would be, and as is clearly outlined in the old testament, they would not mix with anyone who was not also Jewish.

The apostasy, may be taken to be a falling away from this, and descent into uncontrolled acts, not sanctified through prayer, which give birth to abominations.

It is more of an individual happening, and not en masse, albeit for this act, much like the establishment of truth, two must be involved, a speaker, and a listener.

Forbidding to marry may be taken to be the sin of Onan as well, and this is commonly practiced today in modern society, though with different methods than was done in those days. In 1st Timothy, we read "seducing spirits." Genesis 38:9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10: And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

[Maxel]

jasper-

I appreciate your honest intentions. However, I cannot engage in dialogue with you anymore for a number of reasons.

1) You assume prophetic authority for interpreting scripture based on the fact you have been saved through Christ. We assume others are given prophetic authority, through God's grace, and have interpreted the scriptures differently than you. You have taken the privilege upon yourself. You have not been given the mantle of the prophet, but have attempted to craft one of your own power based on spurious reasoning.

2) Anything that might throw a shadow of doubt on your stalwart and narrow-minded position you dub as 'irrelevant' or 'misinterpretation of scripture'. The Biblical canon and nature of scripture is not 'irrelevant' to your question. However, you have your own conclusions: your sole purpose is to declare our belief about the apostasy, and by correlation our belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as false. Often, you claim such things are 'irrelevant' and invite them to be discussed on another thread- as if you started this one. Must I remind you that you did not start this thread- or that the stated point of this thread was not to find a Bible verse supporting the Apostasy?

3) You assume we have not been saved through Christ. This is painfully obvious as you assume authority for yourself because you live the Gospel, yet you claim we are in the wrong. Your condescension is scalding, and made worse by the fact you have nothing to go on but your own opinions- opinions that include you being able to make correct interpretations of scripture based on belief in its teachings.

4) Your constant non-sequitor reasoning makes my head spin. Of course not every event in history is recorded. Of course the apostasy is not spelled out as 'After Christ dies, an apostasy will occur' in the Bible. Of course anything not specifically stated in the Bible didn't happen or is untrue or bad doctrine.

Wait.. what?

THAT's how your arguments go.

5) All you do is dismiss and deflect the values and theology I hold sacred. You take some peculiar delight in trampling the pearls you've gotten a hold of.

6) Your reasoning is based on different foundations that you bounce back and forth between. Your foundation is one of sand and not unified.

----------------------

The next moderator who reads this- I hope you can see the circular path this discussion has taken, and will take forevermore, and choose to take correct action.

[darrel]

Thank you Maxel.

You stated my point exactly. Authority is the foundation of all interpretation of scripture. Having a Living Prophet is the key to understanding scripture and avoiding the many interpretations and confusion existing in the world.

However well intentioned, our friend follows the pattern of sidestepping true doctrine by using tactics well rehersed by the adversary. Satan uses just enough scripture to sound reasonable and then subtly leads away from truth.

[pam]

i don't think it insult you. "did i say that you are a false christian?"

You didn't have to. That was an insult out right. You inferred that we are not true Christians by that statement.

[pam]

Thread is now closed.