Requesting Some Opinions

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@May 26 2004, 08:56 PM

You know that feeling that you have in your heart that is from God telling you that the church is true? Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics, they all have it.

So you’re saying that all of those people have the same kind of testimony that I have? That they will all testify that God has personally enlightened them and given them His assurance that their organization and what they believe is true? Jason, is this true? As a Catholic, will you say that your knowledge and understanding has been personally influenced by God through personal revelation?

If this is true, then why are all of these different organizations and beliefs seemingly at odds with each other? Or are they? Maybe we’re all in agreement and we just don’t realize that right now. Maybe there is a little misunderstanding here and another misunderstanding there preventing us from seeing that we’re all in agreement?

For instance, Jesus is Allah, Jehovah, Buddah, Christ, God, Lord, and King of kings. We just have to figure out how, right? Is that what you’re saying?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people from all those (and other) religions believe with all their hearts that God is giving them a feeling that their religion/church is true. I don't really think they can all be true. But just because you feel so strongly that your's is, doesn't mean it is. I'm saying that we don't know who is right with their beliefs. All we can do is live as our religion teaches and hope for the best.

[Jenda]

Shantress, you stated in one of your replies to LaurelTree

"Not sure what this means, but I am against it. Now I'm not allowed to sound as if I am?"

And I just wanted to ask a question.

You have vascillated in your position regarding this issue. First you stated you weren't sure, but you felt that it wasn't true. Then you stated that you didn't believe it, but others could because none of us can be sure what is really true and we won't know till it is all over, then you made the statement above, that you are against it (the church).

All of this has happened in just a few days time, and I was wondering which statement is true. I am curious how you can go from not being sure if it (the church, history, etc.) is true to being against it in such a short period of time.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda@May 26 2004, 09:43 PM

Shantress, you stated in one of your replies to LaurelTree

"Not sure what this means, but I am against it. Now I'm not allowed to sound as if I am?"

And I just wanted to ask a question.

You have vascillated in your position regarding this issue. First you stated you weren't sure, but you felt that it wasn't true. Then you stated that you didn't believe it, but others could because none of us can be sure what is really true and we won't know till it is all over, then you made the statement above, that you are against it (the church).

All of this has happened in just a few days time, and I was wondering which statement is true. I am curious how you can go from not being sure if it (the church, history, etc.) is true to being against it in such a short period of time.

OK, this is what I was talking about with that. I was saying that I don't understand what she meant by pasting scriptures..., but then she said not to say negative stuff that sounds like I am against the church.

What I meant is that I AM 'against it', as she put it. Why does she want me to sound like I am?

LT: "but if you don't want others pasting scriptures for the church, then dont say negitive stuff that may sound as if you are agaist it..."

Shan: "Not sure what this means, but I am against it. Now I'm not allowed to sound as if I am?"

Now, on to your other question...

"You have vascillated in your position regarding this issue. First you stated you weren't sure, but you felt that it wasn't true."

I don't believe that it is true, but my position is that NO ONE KNOWS what is true. You guys could be correct for all I know, but from what I've studied, and from what I feel in my heart, I don't think so.

"Then you stated that you didn't believe it, but others could because none of us can be sure what is really true and we won't know till it is all over,"

That goes along with my original position that I stated as my answer for the last question. NO ONE knows what is true! But I feel strongly that this isn't.

" then you made the statement above, that you are against it (the church)."

I am 'against' the church in that I don't believe it is true. However, I used the word, 'against', because I was quoting LT and addressing what she said.

"All of this has happened in just a few days time, and I was wondering which statement is true."

It's the SAME THING!!!!!!

Don't mean to come across like I'm yelling, but DA**! You guys are determined to tear me apart here. But I'm still not angry , and I will not be NASTAYYYYYY !

Who is next? Throw me another punch!

[shanstress70]

Jenda,

After further thinking, I believe what is happening is that you are substituting my words, 'think' and 'feel', for 'know'. I don't 'know' what is true or not true. I do 'feel' and 'think' that the LDS church is not true. 'Against' is not the best word to use, because I'm not against it, per say.

I know you think I'm waffling on this, but I'm not. My thoughts on it have been consistent the whole time. Perhaps I'm just not verbalizing it very well. Maybe I'm making a poor choice of words.

Once again, I choose to not be Mormon because I feel strongly that the church is not true. However, unlike some here, I realize that I may not be correct. The LDS church may be true. Or maybe your church is true. Or maybe Hinduism is true. I don't think so, but I don't know. Only God knows.

If I ever said I 'know' it is not true, point it out to me. Maybe I did, but I don't think so. And if I did, I was mistaken.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Chell+May 26 2004, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chell @ May 26 2004, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@May 26 2004, 04:20 AM

Here I thought "Dogma" was just a really funny movie...*shrug*

Funny!

So you are eight weeks pregnant? How exciting for you. :) How are you feeling?

After making this comment last night, all I could think about was that movie!! I REALLY wish it wasn't so vulgar or i'd rent it again!!

feeling? meh...pregnant..lol!!

[Ray]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people from all those (and other) religions believe with all their hearts that God is giving them a feeling that their religion/church is true. I don't really think they can all be true.

Exactly the point, or one of the points, I was trying to make. If they can’t all be true, how would you go about finding out which one is? And then, once you had found out which one is true, wouldn’t you want to share your reasons for believing that your religion is the one that is true? And then, once someone said something against your religion, and you saw that their opinion was based on a misunderstanding about something within your religion, wouldn’t you want to explain what you see to be their error or misunderstanding?

The point I was trying to make before is that we should look to God and rely upon Him to help us find the truth. Will you agree with that, or will you say that we should only rely upon what makes sense to us, based on our understanding of how things are. It is possible that the person who feels strongly against a particular religion might have those anti- feelings because they don’t properly understand the religion, isn’t it? Don’t you think that is possible?

But just because you feel so strongly that yours is, doesn't mean it is. I'm saying that we don't know who is right with their beliefs.  All we can do is live as our religion teaches and hope for the best.[/

And I am saying that as long as we rely upon God to teach us the truth, we can learn it. He knows the truth, and we can learn from Him. We don’t have to go through the rest of our lives here on this Earth not really knowing if what we believe is the truth.

[your_Daddy]

The problem with God telling us something is true or not is very, very vague. That is why there is something like 10,000 Christian denominations. Everyone has been testified to, by God, that their understanding is correct. But that is pretty much a lie because God did not physically come down and tell them their understanding of the gospel is the right one, and the others wrong. If he did there would be millions of prophets on the earth. There are not. Feelings are not enough to tell you that your theology is right and the only theology that is correct. People gravitate to what makes them feel closer to God. Everyone is different. (Like snowflakes cue new age music) ROTFASIMPL

Ray, God did not appear to you and tell you that what you believe is true. No matter what you say, whatever you feel, the conversation betwixt you and the almighty never took place. I know all of the comebacks, "God wants everyone to be on the same page", "God wants us to know his complete plan for us", "God does not want us to be confused", etc…. Please don't bring the Holy Ghost into the conversation either. Feelings are subjective and different to every person that feels them. How can you look at the chaos that exists in just the Christian side of religion and truly believe, with a straight face, that God does not want us to be confused? If he doesn't he has a real strange way of setting us all collectively straight.

p.s. are there any masons that read this forum, just curious.

[Jason]

"Heh, why don’t you just try to enlighten me about how you come to learn that things are true, things that you can’t see, in particular? Hmmm?" (Ray)

Okay. Let me try and explain this. All of God’s elect were predestined to be his sheep long before we were created. I believe in the God of the Bible because God created me to so believe, which is why I’ve rejected Mormonism and the god of the latter-day saints. Let me share with you the word of God on the matter:

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.  Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”  (Romans 9:18)

You see, Ray, God has chosen me already to be one of his elect. He predestined me, as he has many others. For many will approach God and say: Lord, Lord have we not done miracles in thy name? And he will say that He knows them not. God made some vessels unto honor, and others unto dishonor. His sheep hear his voice. If you have ears to hear, you will hear.

I would encourage you to read the entire letter to the Romans, but if you’re not interested, then just read chapters 8-11. There you will learn about God’s remnant, the elect, predestination and why you should believe in the God of the Bible.

[Jason]

"You have vascillated in your position regarding this issue." (Jenda to shanstress)

If I may butt in.

Shanstress is going through a major life change. She will likely struggle in coming to terms with what she now believes and doesn't believe. This seems to be common for those leaving Mormonism. Don't expect her to have all the answers right away. Since she doesn't have an organization spoon feeding her the "right" answers, she needs time to work it out.

I'd say, be patient, and over time she will find the straight and narrow path.

[Jason]

"The problem with God telling us something is true or not is very, very vague. That is why there is something like 10,000 Christian denominations. Everyone has been testified to, by God, that their understanding is correct. But that is pretty much a lie because God did not physically come down and tell them their understanding of the gospel is the right one, and the others wrong. If he did there would be millions of prophets on the earth. There are not. Feelings are not enough to tell you that your theology is right and the only theology that is correct. People gravitate to what makes them feel closer to God. Everyone is different. (Like snowflakes  cue new age music) ROTFASIMPL

Ray, God did not appear to you and tell you that what you believe is true. No matter what you say, whatever you feel, the conversation betwixt you and the almighty never took place. I know all of the comebacks, "God wants everyone to be on the same page", "God wants us to know his complete plan for us", "God does not want us to be confused", etc…. Please don't bring the Holy Ghost into the conversation either. Feelings are subjective and different to every person that feels them. How can you look at the chaos that exists in just the Christian side of religion and truly believe, with a straight face, that God does not want us to be confused? If he doesn't he has a real strange way of setting us all collectively straight. " (Your Daddy)

While your argument has it's valid points (like not relying on a special "sensation" for truth) have you ever given thought to the idea that God doesn't want, nor intended to save everyone?

"p.s. are there any masons that read this forum, just curious."

None that I know of. Most LDS still stay away from freemasonry.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by your_Daddy@May 26 2004, 09:09 PM

The problem with God telling us something is true or not is very, very vague.  That is why there is something like 10,000 Christian denominations.  Everyone has been testified to, by God, that their understanding is correct.  But that is pretty much a lie because God did not physically come down and tell them their understanding of the gospel is the right one, and the others wrong.  If he did there would be millions of prophets on the earth.  There are not.  Feelings are not enough to tell you that your theology is right and the only theology that is correct.  People gravitate to what makes them feel closer to God.  Everyone is different. (Like snowflakes   cue new age music)  ROTFASIMPL

Ray, God did not appear to you and tell you that what you believe is true.   No matter what you say, whatever you feel, the conversation betwixt you and the almighty never took place.  I know all of the comebacks, "God wants everyone to be on the same page", "God wants us to know his complete plan for us", "God does not want us to be confused", etc….  Please don't bring the Holy Ghost into the conversation either.  Feelings are subjective and different to every person that feels them. How can you look at the chaos that exists in just the Christian side of religion and truly believe, with a straight face, that God does not want us to be confused?  If he doesn't he has a real strange way of setting us all collectively straight. 

p.s. are there any masons that read this forum, just curious.

GEEEZE LOUISE! Did you happen to notice this is a pro-lds board? Did you get lost on your way to Babylon?

Ray is right. The Holy Ghost does and did bear witness to truth. We are given what we will receive...and nothing more.

2 Ne. 28: 30

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

It is simply a matter of where one is on the road of understanding. If one is only familiar with addition and is told that what they know is right, does it negate the one who knows addition and subtraction? ....

Does it make the one who doesn't know all the math possible wrong? ... Can there actually be a God if there are people who understand addition and other people who understand subtraction and they are both given to understand that what they know about math is right?....and if there is one who knows all the math possible and is told that his knowledge is valid, does it invalidate those who only know a part of what there is to know about math?....

There will be those who will not be able to equate math with religion or this equation of math and religion..... but maybe if you substitute the word phrases 'some truth', 'some other truth' and 'all truth' for those mathimatical terms...you might begin to see that just because there are some who have been given a confirmation for their piece of truth, doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

But maybe you are one....who is just very narrow in your understanding and focus....you have not got enough 'vision' to see the big picture....only seeing trees and not the forest....but does that make the forest not exist?...Does that mean there is no God because they don't know HIM?....

Then again....there is many spirits abroad. Some are false spirits who will testify to lies....and many are confused because they have not found the 'true' path...but does that make God not exist....or does that make Him the Father of Confusion??....No....there is One father of confusion....and there is God the Father of righteousness.

Knowing the difference is the difference between Ray and 'your_daddy'

If your_daddy doesn't know God....and doesn't get the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, then according to him....there is no God and no Holy Ghost....is that how it works?

Well quess what?.....Not everyone is that lost.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@May 26 2004, 10:26 PM

Exactly the point, or one of the points, I was trying to make. If they can’t all be true, how would you go about finding out which one is? And then, once you had found out which one is true, wouldn’t you want to share your reasons for believing that your religion is the one that is true? And then, once someone said something against your religion, and you saw that their opinion was based on a misunderstanding about something within your religion, wouldn’t you want to explain what you see to be their error or misunderstanding?

The point I was trying to make before is that we should look to God and rely upon Him to help us find the truth. Will you agree with that, or will you say that we should only rely upon what makes sense to us, based on our understanding of how things are. It is possible that the person who feels strongly against a particular religion might have those anti- feelings because they don’t properly understand the religion, isn’t it? Don’t you think that is possible?

But just because you feel so strongly that yours is, doesn't mean it is. I'm saying that we don't know who is right with their beliefs.  All we can do is live as our religion teaches and hope for the best.[/

And I am saying that as long as we rely upon God to teach us the truth, we can learn it. He knows the truth, and we can learn from Him. We don’t have to go through the rest of our lives here on this Earth not really knowing if what we believe is the truth.

"If they can’t all be true, how would you go about finding out which one is?"

You don't know for a fact until you die. As I said a couple posts ago, you have to choose the one that you BELIEVE is true, live by its teachings, and hopefully be correct.

"And then, once you had found out which one is true, wouldn’t you want to share your reasons for believing that your religion is the one that is true? And then, once someone said something against your religion, and you saw that their opinion was based on a misunderstanding about something within your religion, wouldn’t you want to explain what you see to be their error or misunderstanding?"

Here is where we differ quite a bit. The answer to the first part is 'yes'. You would want to share. The answer to the second question is 'no'. Just because you 'think' you have the correct understanding doesn't mean that you are correct. Maybe they are right and you are wrong... and maybe not!

"The point I was trying to make before is that we should look to God and rely upon Him to help us find the truth. Will you agree with that, or will you say that we should only rely upon what makes sense to us, based on our understanding of how things are."

I will agree with that.

"It is possible that the person who feels strongly against a particular religion might have those anti- feelings because they don’t properly understand the religion, isn’t it? Don’t you think that is possible?"

I do think this is possible. I also think the other possibility is that they have those anti-feelings because they think or have feelings from God that the religion is false.

"We don’t have to go through the rest of our lives here on this Earth not really knowing if what we believe is the truth."

Yes we most certainly do. You WILL NOT know for a fact if what you believe is the truth until you die. You can have very strong feelings and beliefs, but unless God comes to your house and you physically see and hear him, you will not know.

But I know you believe otherwise, and that's great too. :)

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 27 2004, 12:02 AM

"You have vascillated in your position regarding this issue." (Jenda to shanstress)

If I may butt in.

Shanstress is going through a major life change. She will likely struggle in coming to terms with what she now believes and doesn't believe. This seems to be common for those leaving Mormonism. Don't expect her to have all the answers right away. Since she doesn't have an organization spoon feeding her the "right" answers, she needs time to work it out.

I'd say, be patient, and over time she will find the straight and narrow path.

Thanks Jason,

But I still maintain that I have not vascillated in my opinion. From day one I have said that I don’t believe the LDS church true, but I don’t pretend to know what is. I can only go with the feeling in my heart and the scriptures I read. Perhaps I have chose the wrong words when posting, but I really haven’t changed my mind at all. But yes - I am still learning, and hopefully will always be!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 26 2004, 08:13 PM

Jenda,

After further thinking, I believe what is happening is that you are substituting my words, 'think' and 'feel', for 'know'. I don't 'know' what is true or not true. I do 'feel' and 'think' that the LDS church is not true. 'Against' is not the best word to use, because I'm not against it, per say.

I know you think I'm waffling on this, but I'm not. My thoughts on it have been consistent the whole time. Perhaps I'm just not verbalizing it very well. Maybe I'm making a poor choice of words.

Once again, I choose to not be Mormon because I feel strongly that the church is not true. However, unlike some here, I realize that I may not be correct. The LDS church may be true. Or maybe your church is true. Or maybe Hinduism is true. I don't think so, but I don't know. Only God knows.

If I ever said I 'know' it is not true, point it out to me. Maybe I did, but I don't think so. And if I did, I was mistaken.

Thanks, Shantress. That helps explain how you feel (or rather understand how you feel) better. :)

I wasn't trying to throw one at you, it just seemed you swung from one end to the other rather rapidly. But you cleared it up.

[shanstress70]

I know you weren’t, Jenda. I was just feeling deliriously goofy late last night. I stayed up too late and now I’m really paying for it. I get up at 5:30 to come to work so I can get off at 2:00. More time with the yungun!

Thank goodness I can drink coffee now!

[Jenda]

................have you ever given thought to the idea that God doesn't want, nor intended to save everyone?

NO!

God made each one, God wants each one to accept Him.

Why do you believe that God would not want to save everyone?

That idea just smacks of, not just God being a respecter of persons, but elitism for those who think they are saved.

[shanstress70]

I have to agree with Jenda.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Jenda@May 27 2004, 06:56 AM

That idea just smacks of, not just God being a respecter of persons, but elitism for those who think they are saved.

Elitism? Welcome to Ray and Snow's worldview.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 26 2004, 04:55 PM

I probably shouldn't speak for him, but that's what I took him to mean.

I don't mind you speaking for me. Hell, Ray does it all the time!

[Guest Peace]

Originally posted by Rodney+May 27 2004, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ May 27 2004, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@May 27 2004, 06:56 AM

That idea just smacks of, not just God being a respecter of persons, but elitism for those who think they are saved.

Elitism? Welcome to Ray and Snow's worldview.

I don't know that it is Snow's or Ray's world,...but it isn't true. The plan of salvation covers everyone's tail.

You may not get it the first time around...but if you read

Matt. 20: 9

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

You will see that every man in his own time and season... will receive the same reward...just not the same time.

D&C 88:

51 Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field.

52 And he said unto the first: Go ye and labor in the field, and in the first hour I will come unto you, and ye shall behold the joy of my countenance.

53 And he said unto the second: Go ye also into the field, and in the second hour I will visit you with the joy of my countenance.

54 And also unto the third, saying: I will visit you;

55 And unto the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

56 And the lord of the field went unto the first in the first hour, and tarried with him all that hour, and he was made glad with the light of the countenance of his lord.

57 And then he withdrew from the first that he might visit the second also, and the third, and the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

58 And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his season—

59 Beginning at the first, and so on unto the last, and from the last unto the first, and from the first unto the last;

60 Every man in his own order, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.

61 Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof—every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

62 And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, I leave these sayings with you to ponder in your hearts, with this commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall call upon me while I am near—

63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;

65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.

66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

69 Remember the great and last promise which I have made unto you; cast away your idle thoughts and your excess of laughter far from you.

70 Tarry ye, tarry ye in this place, and call a solemn assembly, even of those who are the first laborers in this last kingdom.

71 And let those whom they have warned in their traveling call on the Lord, and ponder the warning in their hearts which they have received, for a little season.

72 Behold, and lo, I will take care of your flocks, and will raise up elders and send unto them.

73 Behold, I will hasten my work in its time.

[Jason]

"God made each one, God wants each one to accept Him. Why do you believe that God would not want to save everyone?" (Jenda)

Romans 8-9. The whole epistle would be best, but take a good look at the "potter's wheel" analogy. God has already decided who will be his sheep. Obviously, if everyone was one of the Lord's then all would hear His voice. Yet Christ taught that only His sheep would hear Him. He also taught that many would say Lord, Lord, but He would say that he never knew them.

I will do my best to cover this straight from the scriptures, so as not to interject my own opinion.

"That idea just smacks of, not just God being a respecter of persons, but elitism for those who think they are saved."

It is elitism. That's why God calls his people the "elect".

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 27 2004, 08:33 AM

"God made each one, God wants each one to accept Him. Why do you believe that God would not want to save everyone?" (Jenda)

Romans 8-9. The whole epistle would be best, but take a good look at the "potter's wheel" analogy. God has already decided who will be his sheep. Obviously, if everyone was one of the Lord's then all would hear His voice. Yet Christ taught that only His sheep would hear Him. He also taught that many would say Lord, Lord, but He would say that he never knew them.

I will do my best to cover this straight from the scriptures, so as not to interject my own opinion.

"That idea just smacks of, not just God being a respecter of persons, but elitism for those who think they are saved."

It is elitism. That's why God calls his people the "elect".

I'm sorry, but you are taking the view that if one isn't "saved" now, they can't be in the future. That is not true. Whether one is 8 or 18 or 48 or 78, when they accept Christ as their Savior, they become one of the elect.

We have our agency, and it is a choice to accept Christ (as long as it is done with a sincere heart). We are not pre-destined. I realize that you don't accept the scripture as changed by Joseph Smith, but the one that you quoted earlier was (divinely) altered to show that it is Christ that the scripture (and most of the rest of the chapter) is talking about.

Romans 8:28-30 IV

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For him whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to his own image, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover, him whom he did predestinate, him he also called; and him whom he called, him he also sanctified; and him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified.

I do believe that this is the intended meaning of this scripture.

I believe that it is only Christ who was predestined. The rest of us have our agency to accept or reject. God would like us all to accept, but he can't force us, which is what would happen if we were predestined.

IMO. IMO. IMO. IMO. IMO.

[your_Daddy]

exmo-jason,

Dude, you need to do some re-evaluation. The born-agains have gotten to you pretty deep(in a bad way ofcourse). To think that everyone is not invited to come unto Christ is just asinine. How would one know if one is chosen or not? If one weren’t “chosen” or “elect” what would happen to that person if they decided to follow Christ? Don’t say that couldn’t happen because it could. You misinterpret Romans. Christ is talking about people that pay him lip service but do not follow his teachings, or truly believe in him. Christ invites all to follow him many, many times in “your bible”, not just the “chosen”. For you to contend anything else is complete an utter manure. You are “chosen” and “elect” if you choose to follow the Savior and live his teachings to the best of your abilities. It is this type of elitist discriminatory crap that you, and people like you will have to answer for if there is some kind of judgment day in the future. Pride is the easiest of all sins to commit. Check yourself before you fall any deeper into the pride and arrogance that you have displayed with your last couple of posts.

Can I get an Amen out there brothers and sisters?

[Guest Starsky]

Chosen only means you have accepted Christ.... Elect is having your calling and election made sure....

It is a state of being after you have accepted Christ....

There are those who were more valiant in the preexitence.....and they will probably be the 'first' but remember the first shall be last and the last shall be first, so no one can really say which one they are until it is all over...and it isn't over until it is over....

[Jason]

"I'm sorry, but you are taking the view that if one isn't "saved" now, they can't be in the future." (Jenda)

Actually, no. Im saying that they may not have accepted Christ yet, but they were predestined to at some point in their lives. Hence they will hear his voice, because they are his sheep. Look at me, for example. I have only recently accepted Christianity. If I believed that it wasn't possible to Hear the masters voice at any point in someone's life, then I would be a hypocrite. That's why I believe in missionary work. The sooner we can get someone to hear his voice, the greater good that person can do while still alive.

"That is not true. Whether one is 8 or 18 or 48 or 78, when they accept Christ as their Savior, they become one of the elect." (Jenda)

I differ slightly. They were already the elect, but had not yet accepted Christ. That's why in the parable of the slaves, some came early and worked all day, others at the end of the day, but all received an equal reward. Why? Because they were all the Elect of Christ to begin with.

As for the Joseph Smith translation...out of respect for you personally....no comment.