Requesting Some Opinions

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 24 2004, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 24 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 24 2004, 05:11 PM

You know Shanstress you really are out of line, you are acting violently cold hearted here, and way off track. I will be sending these posts to Spencer. I know he is your friend and he doesn't want to deal with you on this level, but you have lost it.

Violently cold- hearted? Because I tell you you shouldn't say hateful things to people about their kids?

I have nothing to hide from Spencer. This has nothing to do with him. Why would it? I've never heard him say anything cold to anyone.

Spencer, if you feel the need to ban me... feel free. I'm done with this board anyway. I don't want a message board and my disapproval of someone's hurtful words to come between our friendship.

I'm basically just sticking around to see what Starsky has to say to me anyway. When she stops replying, I won't come back anymore.

If teaching that one must live righteously and be sealed under the priesthood authority is wrong, then what are we doing on an LDS Board?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 24 2004, 05:05 PM

I think both Ray and chell covered this, but since I was the offending party...I will try once more to clear this up.

I didn't mean to state, if I did, that children would go to hell if they had a bad parent.... I meant to say that if I were God I would want my children to be in the best homes possible..... And since I believe the church is true and the doctrine true, and the temple ordinances bound and loosed upon the principles of righteousness then it is important they be in a lds home with righteous parents...if they are to be together after this life!

So if a guy is not righteous and he brings his children up to not be righteous, the sin will be upon his head and the children will have to learn about the gospel another way.....as Chell pointed out.

I don't believe that 'not being LDS' automatically makes someone unrighteous....but it certainly doesn't give them the priesthood blessings either....one of which is being sealed for all eternity.

So, however you want to slice the pie, someone not living the commandments withing the church with the priesthood blessing intact.....will not be sealed after this life...so does it matter whether the man or woman has the children if they aren't sealed to them by the proper authority???? I say no... But if a woman or man get a divorce from their inactive or not-member spouse, and have their sealling nullified, and they get married to another spouse who is righteous, and who can be sealed then that can happen also according to the many who do this very thing...

The children, if not sealed to either parent can be taught the gospel and given a chance to receive what they missed in a non-lds family and then they will be judged accordingly.

I just read this... and thanks for clarifying it. But you did originally say something very hurtful to the other poster about his kids.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 24 2004, 04:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 24 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 24 2004, 05:05 PM

I think both Ray and chell covered this, but since I was the offending party...I will try once more to clear this up.

I didn't mean to state, if I did, that children would go to hell if they had a bad parent.... I meant to say that if I were God I would want my children to be in the best homes possible..... And since I believe the church is true and the doctrine true, and the temple ordinances bound and loosed upon the principles of righteousness then it is important they be in a lds home with righteous parents...if they are to be together after this life!

So if a guy is not righteous and he brings his children up to not be righteous, the sin will be upon his head and the children will have to learn about the gospel another way.....as Chell pointed out.

I don't believe that 'not being LDS' automatically makes someone unrighteous....but it certainly doesn't give them the priesthood blessings either....one of which is being sealed for all eternity.

So, however you want to slice the pie, someone not living the commandments withing the church with the priesthood blessing intact.....will not be sealed after this life...so does it matter whether the man or woman has the children if they aren't sealed to them by the proper authority???? I say no... But if a woman or man get a divorce from their inactive or not-member spouse, and have their sealling nullified, and they get  married to another spouse who is righteous, and who can be sealed then that can happen also according to the many who do this very thing...

The children, if not sealed to either parent can be taught the gospel and given a chance to receive what they missed in a non-lds family and then they will be judged accordingly.

I just read this... and thanks for clarifying it. But you did originally say something very hurtful to the other poster about his kids.

Okay...so can we call a truce?

[shanstress70]

Truce, but I'm still movin' on. And I'm certain my child will be in heaven.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 24 2004, 04:43 PM

Truce, but I'm still movin' on. And I'm certain my child will be in heaven.

Of course your child will be in heaven. There isn't a parent out there that doesn't want to believe that.

[shanstress70]

I am CERTAIN of this, thanks.

[Guest Starsky]

I really am sorry I said anything that would hurt you. Who is to really know the future? The Lord alone, I venture.

[Davis]

Forgive me for not being up to speed on doctrine, but where can this doctrine be found?

[Ray]

Shanstress,

If you’re still around, I’d really appreciate an explanation for how you can be so certain that your child is going to heaven. And while you’re at it, what do you mean by “heaven”?

Is your child still living on this Earth? If not, did they accept the gospel before he/she died? If so, how can you be so certain that they will always remain true to the gospel? Has he/she bore his/her testimony to you in such a way that convinces you that he/she knows that the gospel is true and there is no doubt that he/she will ever change his/her mind about it? Didn’t you say that you were once a member of the Church, but that you no longer are? Do you believe your child is more convinced of the truth of the gospel than you are?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

If they are not LDS, and they don't believe in eternal families, they will get a singles heaven...just what they expected.

[AFDaw]

Let me see if I have this correct.

It sounds like people are making things way too complicated. Sounded like ExMoJason was just trying to say that regardless of who his kids are sealed to, they are stil biological his. And that's true. Then Starsky comes in and talks about kids being taken away, to which Curvette even said she didn't think that was how it goes. (Am I understanding this right so far?)

Then it gets hairy. Starsky, what did you mean by this?

Talents/gifts from Heavenly Father....if you are unworthy...I would hope to hannah that children would be taken from an unworthy parent...would you wish children to stay where they will be spiritually darkened? That would be like condemning them to h..... The woman can and has often had the children adopted by a new husband who was worthy.... and I am sure the Father of us all will make sure HIS children get what is best for them...in all cases...

Because I can tell you that Heavenly Father wants what is best for his children, but he does not always step in and fix things. We have way too many child abuse incidents for that to be true. So I'm just trying to understand what you meant, because to me it does sound like you are implying Jason's kids are condemned to hell because he's not a member.

As for your original question posted by Shannon, no, I do not agree with her statements. At least the way I intrepret them.

[Cal]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 24 2004, 10:41 AM

In another thread, Person A said this:

"My mormon wife could leave me and marry some faithful mormon dude, they can go to the temple and 'seal' my girls to this guy, and for all time and throughout all eternity they will REMAIN MY CHILDREN. That's the real point im trying to make."

Person B replied:

"...have you considered the fact that these children were first the children of God? Your own brothers and sisters? Mature Spirits? That you were only given them for a short time as a stewardship?...and The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away?"

Person B is consistent with her LDS doctrine at this point, but then she goes on to say:

Talents/gifts from Heavenly Father....if you are unworthy...I would hope to hannah that children would be taken from an unworthy parent...would you wish children to stay where they will be spiritually darkened? That would be like condemning them to h..... The woman can and has often had the children adopted by a new husband who was worthy.... and I am sure the Father of us all will make sure HIS children get what is best for them...in all cases...

Please tell me that all you LDS people are not in agreement with Person B!  This is not your church's teaching... correct?  I am a former Mormon and have always been taught the opposite... a child will not be held accountable for anything until the age of eight.  At that point, he or she can supposedly make up their own mind by being baptized, which is the gateway to the celestial kingdom.  In LDS teachings, a child's salvation has NOTHING to do with the choice of their parents.  Just making sure, because Person B keeps telling me that she is not God and doesn't write the scripture.  She can't help if it upsets some.  What the...?!

I'm of course speaking of the part where she says that a child is condemned to hell if he/she stays with a parent who doesn't believe in the LDS church!  (Yes, she calls this person an 'unworthy parent' just because he doesn't believe in LDS doctrine!)

Just wanted to get some of your opinions on this subect, AND wanted to let you know that people like this are why some people are leaving the church (even if they DO believe!).  Personally, I don't believe the church is true, as I have stated in another thread.  But I have talked to some who have chosen to leave because they are subjected to this kind of talk/thinking by members.

All of this stuff is PURE speculation and carries no more weight in reality than speculating about the intentions of extraterrestials. Many of us Mormons like to draw inferences from what we THINK is some grand truth about the here after. But, those inferences are really inferences drawn on inferences, to the point that makes a rational person gag. We seem to have this need to be "SURE" of everything. Actually, even our own scriptures put the focus on faith and hope--not certainty. So if we are not CERTAIN of what is actually said in the scriptures, how can we be certain of inferences drawn on those scriptures. For example-- where does it say in ANY scripture that people not married in the mormon temples will not be TOGETHER forever. NOWHERE, that's where. What it does say in DC is that if you want to have eternal procreation, you need mormon temple marriage. Yet some LDS INFER that non-mormons won't have eternal togetherness. Where they get that is beyond me. IT"S SPECULATION--and insidious and cruel IMHO.

Bottomline: No one REALLY knows ANYTHING about the hearafter except that we all hope there is one. Beyond that, we have to keep our feet on the ground and admit that what many of us are "SURE" of is really what we "HOPE" is the truth.

Those that can't live with a little uncertainty and ambiguity are a bit cowardly if you ask me. We have to be tough enough to face facts---one being that there is nothing CERTAIN about this life, except that we are here doing the best we can to understand it.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+May 24 2004, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ May 24 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 24 2004, 04:55 PM

Shanstress,

If you’re still around, I’d really appreciate an explanation for how you can be so certain that your child is going to heaven.  And while you’re at it, what do you mean by “heaven”?

Is your child still living on this Earth?  If not, did they accept the gospel before he/she died?  If so, how can you be so certain that they will always remain true to the gospel?  Has he/she bore his/her testimony to you in such a way that convinces you that he/she knows that the gospel is true and there is no doubt that he/she will ever change his/her mind about it?  Didn’t you say that you were once a member of the Church, but that you no longer are?  Do you believe your child is more convinced of the truth of the gospel than you are?

It doesn't matter, Ray.

Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial...its 3 levels of heaven.

For someone who does not believe in eternal families, the Telestial or Terrestrial will be a very happy heaven.

So even if her child never accepted the gospel in this life, that child will probably go to heaven on one of the lower levels.

Many non-LDS Christians don't think Heaven will include families...and they are right if you exclude the Celestial Kingdom...they will experience their exact version of heaven in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdom.

Funny how if LDS doctrine is true, everyone will get what they expect out of heaven. If they are LDS, they will get what they deserve, according to their obedience.

If they are not LDS, and they don't believe in eternal families, they will get a singles heaven...just what they expected.

If they are not LDS and do believe in eternal families, they will probably be more open to recieving the LDS gospel in the spirit world, and successfully make their way to the CK by the temple work of their descendents.

By the way, this reminds me of something LDS people don't talk about much...that is, the non-LDS who believe in eternal families. And there are many non-LDS who believe in eternal families, despite what many LDS think about the non-LDS words "until death do you part".

LDS seem to take a certain pride in not saying those words. That pride is not really deserved, because many non-LDS do not interpret this to mean that they will part for eternity.

Also, in some non-LDS ceremonies people do not even say those words! For example, some say "as long as you both shall live"...which could include life in the Resurrection.

The LDS church does not have a monopoly on belief in eternal families.

They just talk about it more, and believe they have the only way to make it work.

Personally, I believe in eternal families (in my own unorthodox way)...and I think that the LDS Temple can help a couple get there by the love they are showing each other in that ceremony.

Its love that gets you there, not the ritual...in my opinion.

Thanks for trying to explain that Tao.

For the record, Ray, I do believe in eternal families. I don't believe in three levels of heaven, though, and and don't believe temple ceremonies mean anything. And my vows didn't say, "Till death do we part."

I shouldn't have said, "I'm certain" about my child's salvation. No one is... not even you. I only said that b/c I was angry about Starsky's comments.

But if I have anything to do with the way he turns out, he will, and so will me and my husband, and we will all be together forever - without another kingdom 'above' us!

I don't believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet and I don't believe the BoM is true.

And I REALLY don't know why I keep posting here as an outsider. Of course I'm going to be in the minority on this board. What an idiot (I am )!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Well, I like to "try" to help Hehehe

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Yea, where are all the other skeptics these days?

[Guest lt]

Shanstress70,

When you came here we greeted you with open arms, even after you chose to leave the church we continued to tell you we like you for you. Each individual here has there own perception of what there religion means to them, You cannot expect others to be so easy with you while you judge there every thought. Sometimes it is best to ignore some people here until you get to know them better and there humor ( meaning there joking) Or the ones who are hateful, just simply ignore them. Life will flow happier if you don't allow the negitive things to get you, believe me I've been here long enough to realize that.

You do what you need to do to continue your spirituality with the lord, and allow others to do what they do. It doesnt mean either party is right or wrong, it just means we are all different and unique individuals

Just a thought

Laureltree

[Jason]

Since we're talking about my kids here, mind if I pipe in?

Here's the real situation: I have two daughters and one more on the way (accidental, but I guess that's life...). My wife still wants to believe in Mormonism, even though she has some strong doubts. To be honest, I believe that if she ever left me and married a TBM, her doubts would melt away and she'd become the same TBM as she was before we married.

I don't want my kids to be LDS. I belive that the Catholic Church's teachings or faith and morals meets or exceeds those of the LDS Church. That said, it's possible that more LDS kids actually follow the teachings of their faith. Yet, I believe that I can raise my kids to be righteous, Christ-loving, moral and chaste women of God without mormonism's influence.

I believe in one Heaven and one Hell. I don't pretend to know where God draws the line. But I believe that my kids will always respect me as their biological father. Yet I expect that if they are "sealed" to anyone, I'd have them sealed to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I'll be happy just to see them in heaven (assuming I make it myself.)

There, I guess that's enough.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@May 24 2004, 07:05 PM

Shanstress70,

When you came here we greeted you with open arms, even after you chose to leave the church we continued to tell you we like you for you. Each individual here has there own perception of what there religion means to them, You cannot expect others to be so easy with you while you judge there every thought. Sometimes it is best to ignore some people here until you get to know them better and there humor ( meaning there joking) Or the ones who are hateful, just simply ignore them. Life will flow happier if you don't allow the negitive things to get you, believe me I've been here long enough to realize that.

You do what you need to do to continue your spirituality with the lord, and allow others to do what they do. It doesnt mean either party is right or wrong, it just means we are all different and unique individuals

Just a thought

Laureltree

LT,

That's fine, and I will try to take your advice. She just touched a sore spot about the kids... that's all. I can keep my mouth shut about a lot of things, but not when it comes to talking about someone's kids. I guess I put myself in the place of the person she was talking to.

I will try to not get so offended in the future.

Thanks!

[Guest lt]

Thanks for trying to explain that Tao.

For the record, Ray, I do believe in eternal families. I don't believe in three levels of heaven, though, and and don't believe temple ceremonies mean anything. And my vows didn't say, "Till death do we part."

I do understand your thoughts on this one, however.........

The book of mormon is not the only doctrine that mentions the three kingdoms, the bible also mentions them as well

here are different scriptures.

CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 12

knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heave

CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 15

40 There• are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

I just thought I would share it with you. I hope you are doing better

Laureltree

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Ray@May 24 2004, 12:42 PM

Try to see the universe through my eyes for a moment.

Everyone who has or ever will live on this Earth is a child of a heavenly Father, coming to Earth to advance and develop into a more glorious being. The gospel is key, because without it we would be left with no other choice but to die, remain forever without our physical body, and forever be shut out from the presence of God. (Death came through Adam, Resurrection came through Christ, and Redemption from the life we would have without Christ comes through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. The Atonement is the key which makes the gospel work, because without that there would be no Christ).

Will the children of some parents be forced to live forever without a knowledge of the gospel just because his/her parents didn’t teach him? No, because that would not be just. Everyone will have the opportunity to learn about the gospel and they will then accept it or reject it.

Btw, evil refers to doing anything that is contrary to the will of God. If you teach your children that there is no Christ, or that the gospel is just something that some people made up, that is evil, because it is contrary to the will of God. If you have those beliefs because that is what your parents taught you, your parents will be responsible for teaching you that. After all, an honest person would simply say that they do not know whether or not it is true, because they would have no such knowledge. To bear a false witness against someone or something is not a good thing.

What about the 2nd Article of Faith?

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

I was taught that this meant that each person was responsible for their own sins, no-one else's, not even those of their parents, ie; Adam and Eve were SOLELY responsible for the Fall, and the rest of us would not have to pay any price for their actions.

Am I wrong?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by AFDaw@May 24 2004, 05:29 PM

Let me see if I have this correct.

It sounds like people are making things way too complicated. Sounded like ExMoJason was just trying to say that regardless of who his kids are sealed to, they are stil biological his. And that's true. Then Starsky comes in and talks about kids being taken away, to which Curvette even said she didn't think that was how it goes. (Am I understanding this right so far?)

Then it gets hairy. Starsky, what did you mean by this?

Talents/gifts from Heavenly Father....if you are unworthy...I would hope to hannah that children would be taken from an unworthy parent...would you wish children to stay where they will be spiritually darkened? That would be like condemning them to h..... The woman can and has often had the children adopted by a new husband who was worthy.... and I am sure the Father of us all will make sure HIS children get what is best for them...in all cases...

Because I can tell you that Heavenly Father wants what is best for his children, but he does not always step in and fix things. We have way too many child abuse incidents for that to be true. So I'm just trying to understand what you meant, because to me it does sound like you are implying Jason's kids are condemned to hell because he's not a member.

As for your original question posted by Shannon, no, I do not agree with her statements. At least the way I intrepret them.

I've already explained it...maybe you didn't read the whole thread....read my posts....

[Guest lt]

jason,

I have read so many of your post I can't even count any more I think as long as we are making an effort for eternal progression no matter what religion you are, god knows you are trying...Isn't that the purpose.

So as long as you are trying, I'll see you there.

As far as being cathloic...been there, done that, almost even became a nun however it wasnt my chosen path, I hope it works for you and your family

Laureltree

[Guest lt]

Originally posted by bizabra@May 24 2004, 06:28 PM

What about the 2nd Article of Faith?

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

I was taught that this meant that each person was responsible for their own sins, no-one else's, not even those of their parents, ie; Adam and Eve were SOLELY responsible for the Fall, and the rest of us would not have to pay any price for their actions.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are Biz, but we as parents are still resposible for them until they reach the age of accountability.

Laureltree

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+May 24 2004, 06:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ May 24 2004, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 24 2004, 12:42 PM

Try to see the universe through my eyes for a moment.

Everyone who has or ever will live on this Earth is a child of a heavenly Father, coming to Earth to advance and develop into a more glorious being.  The gospel is key, because without it we would be left with no other choice but to die, remain forever without our physical body, and forever be shut out from the presence of God. (Death came through Adam, Resurrection came through Christ, and Redemption from the life we would have without Christ comes through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.  The Atonement is the key which makes the gospel work, because without that there would be no Christ). 

Will the children of some parents be forced to live forever without a knowledge of the gospel just because his/her parents didn’t teach him?  No, because that would not be just.  Everyone will have the opportunity to learn about the gospel and they will then accept it or reject it.

Btw, evil refers to doing anything that is contrary to the will of God.  If you teach your children that there is no Christ, or that the gospel is just something that some people made up, that is evil, because it is contrary to the will of God.  If you have those beliefs because that is what your parents taught you, your parents will be responsible for teaching you that.  After all, an honest person would simply say that they do not know whether or not it is true, because they would have no such knowledge.  To bear a false witness against someone or something is not a good thing.

What about the 2nd Article of Faith?

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

I was taught that this meant that each person was responsible for their own sins, no-one else's, not even those of their parents, ie; Adam and Eve were SOLELY responsible for the Fall, and the rest of us would not have to pay any price for their actions.

Am I wrong?

Because the Catholics believe a baby will go to h.... if they are not baptised...this article of faith was given for men to know that the fall of adam wasn't on our heads....just our own sins...

But parents and authorities who do not teach their stewardships truth and righteousness will be held accountable for the sins of those who sin in ignorance due to the failings of these stewards.

Jacob 1: 19

19 And we did magnify our office unto the Lord, taking upon us the responsibility, answering the sins of the people upon our own heads if we did not teach them the word of God with all diligence; wherefore, by laboring with our might their blood might not come upon our garments; otherwise their blood would come upon our garments, and we would not be found spotless at the last day.

and D&C 68: 25

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I think the point is that the kids are not punished for sins of their parents...